Need Info: 1917 Kelsey w/ Massnick Phipps 4 cylinder engine & Mea A4 magneto

[DavidWhite]

I’m restoring the 1917 Kelsey prototype and it has a Massnick Phipps 4 cylinder engine. so far I have been able to find no information regarding this engine. It has a Mea A4 magneto. How do I know if it’s negative or positive ground?  Does anybody know of any information regarding their operation?

[TerryB]

A little info here

 

[Akstraw]

Sorry I can’t help.  Interesting photos, though.  Thanks for sharing, and good luck!

[mikewest]

2 hours ago, DavidWhite said:

I’m restoring the 1917 Kelsey prototype and it has a Massnick Phipps 4 cylinder engine. so far I have been able to find no information regarding this engine. It has a Mea A4 magneto. How do I know if it’s negative or positive ground?  Does anybody know of any information regarding their operation?

It can be either. To kill the motor you only need to ground the mag like any magneto.

[Dandy Dave]

Not a common mag. This unit makes it's own power to provide a spark. DO NOT hook it to a battery. You will burn out the windings in seconds if they are still any good. Usually these old mags need a good cleaning by someone that knows what they are doing. Condensers are usually bad just from age. The lug pointed to in the photo is where a wire to a switch that grounds the mag out to stop the engine would go. If the mag has any spark you will be able to see it by hooking some sparks plugs to it and grounding the bases out with the mag in a vice. You will have to see which way it spins by watching the way the rag joint turns while cranking the motor. Also the points usually need cleaning with some very fine emery cloth as they oxidize with time. If your unsure of what I'm writing here, get an expert.

Edited March 19 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

Dave is right.

You may have to re-magnetize the magnets also, you may want to send it out to be reworked.

If you are brave you can always test it with a finger.

[DavidWhite]

19 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Not a common mag. This unit makes it's own power to provide a spark. DO NOT hook it to a battery. You will burn out the windings in seconds if they are still any good. Usually these old mags need a good cleaning by someone that knows what they are doing. Condensers are usually bad just from age. The lug pointed to in the photo is where a wire to a switch that grounds the mag out to stop the engine would go. If the mag has any spark you will be able to see it by hooking some sparks plugs to it and grounding the bases out with the mag in a vice. You will have to see which way it spins by watching the way the rag joint turns while cranking the motor. Also the points usually need cleaning with some very fine emery cloth as they oxidize with time. If your unsure of what I'm writing here, get an expert.

Great information thank you. Do you know of any experts to rebuild it? David, Saratoga NY

[DavidWhite]

16 hours ago, 28 Chrysler said:

Dave is right.

You may have to re-magnetize the magnets also, you may want to send it out to be reworked.

If you are brave you can always test it with a finger.

Thank you for the information. Do you know of any experts for a rebuild 

[Dandy Dave]

2 hours ago, DavidWhite said:

Thank you for the information. Do you know of any experts for a rebuild 

Mark's Magneto Service in Colchester CT. If this fellow can't do it, no one can.
860-537-0376

[DavidWhite]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:37 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Mark's Magneto Service in Colchester CT. If this fellow can't do it, no one can.
860-537-0376

Great thank you 

[mechanician]

To add to Dave's post, be careful if you turn it over, be sure to have plugs grounded as he mentions.  Mea magnetos (like others) have a safety gap that allows the magneto to release the electric "pressure" if spun over ungrounded without a ground path through the plugs.  That said, if you spin it over without a ground path and the safety gap is broken or badly mis-adjusted, the spark can occur across the windings which will damage them.

 

You may want to consider purchasing a rebuilt Bosch mag from Mark (much more common) at least until you get the rest of the project sorted (or if you plan to drive it a lot once sorted).  The Mea is a great conversation piece and an interesting high quality design but perhaps not a "beginner's mag" or one for extended use...

[Dandy Dave]

An American Bosch DU-4 would be a good choice. You do need to know the rotation of your rag joint and get a mag set up for that rotation. If driven directly off of the cam it will be opposite the way the engine cranks. If off of a third gear, which is quite common, then the rotation will be the same as the direction of the hand crank. Most engines  turn clock wise as you crank from the front. A rare few crank counter clockwise. Also it will be good to measure the height of mag drive to the center of the rag joint drive to be sure the mag matches. 

Here's a DU-4 for you to look at. https://www.ebay.com/itm/325682971902?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1cFHR83osSTms27ecww_Qnw49&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=325682971902&targetid=1644837435323&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9004618&poi=&campaignid=20394414698&mkgroupid=153052395833&rlsatarget=aud-1412318123216:pla-1644837435323&abcId=9317284&merchantid=5303548995&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPq9wK6CB4A1gJgnbfx0NeSDTxQtp4jCTN4Izw-kiEtQgvtxNddRzAaAqgwEALw_wcB 

Edited March 22 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[DavidWhite]

Kelsey’s first 4 wheel automobile.  This is the only photograph I have been able to find so far. Apparently they were being manufactured in Connecticut, but at the time of production, Henry Ford was dropping his prices due to the assembly line and other cost reduction in production, forcing Kelsey’s investors back out, and it never went into production. Are there any known examples of this vehicle or anybody with any information? I would appreciate it greatly.

[DavidWhite]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:37 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Mark's Magneto Service in Colchester CT. If this fellow can't do it, no one can.
860-537-0376

 

On 3/20/2024 at 6:37 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Mark's Magneto Service in Colchester CT. If this fellow can't do it, no one can.
860-537-0376

Dandy Dave, thank you for the contact information. I talk to their office about what I have and I’m forwarding my magneto to them Monday morning. There is no doubt from my conversation with their office that they know what they’re talking about.

[DavidWhite]

Does anybody know of a copy of this destination regarding MEA magnetos? It appears to be the only information I can find on any literature on these parts.

[DavidWhite]

Another interesting tidbit about this prototype Kelsey. Clearly they were using whatever came available to make certain things work. This is the oil filler for the crank case. When I pulled the plug off of it, I realized that it was too small for the funnel, so I removed the entire fitting. Turns out the fitting was developed from the base of a spark plug. 

[DavidWhite]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:21 AM, Dandy Dave said:

An American Bosch DU-4 would be a good choice. You do need to know the rotation of your rag joint and get a mag set up for that rotation. If driven directly off of the cam it will be opposite the way the engine cranks. If off of a third gear, which is quite common, then the rotation will be the same as the direction of the hand crank. Most engines  turn clock wise as you crank from the front. A rare few crank counter clockwise. Also it will be good to measure the height of mag drive to the center of the rag joint drive to be sure the mag matches. 

Here's a DU-4 for you to look at. https://www.ebay.com/itm/325682971902?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1cFHR83osSTms27ecww_Qnw49&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=325682971902&targetid=1644837435323&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9004618&poi=&campaignid=20394414698&mkgroupid=153052395833&rlsatarget=aud-1412318123216:pla-1644837435323&abcId=9317284&merchantid=5303548995&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPq9wK6CB4A1gJgnbfx0NeSDTxQtp4jCTN4Izw-kiEtQgvtxNddRzAaAqgwEALw_wcB 

 

[DavidWhite]

Thank you. I happen to have a DU4 and DU6, I’ll get them out and see.
 

every photo I have found indicates that the firing order based upon the wire locations is 1423. That doesn’t make sense to me based upon my experience, and the way the crank is built. The glass eye on the magneto has an indicator of 1234 what would be the purpose? 

[Dandy Dave]

5 hours ago, DavidWhite said:

Thank you. I happen to have a DU4 and DU6, I’ll get them out and see.
 

every photo I have found indicates that the firing order based upon the wire locations is 1423. That doesn’t make sense to me based upon my experience, and the way the crank is built. The glass eye on the magneto has an indicator of 1234 what would be the purpose? 

The two most common firing orders are 1-2-4-3, and 1-3-4-2. put some tissue paper over the cylinder spark plug holes and see which moves first while hand cranking. Then you know for sure.

Edited March 30 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[mechanician]

5 hours ago, DavidWhite said:

Thank you. I happen to have a DU4 and DU6, I’ll get them out and see.
 

every photo I have found indicates that the firing order based upon the wire locations is 1423. That doesn’t make sense to me based upon my experience, and the way the crank is built. The glass eye on the magneto has an indicator of 1234 what would be the purpose? 

The indicator on the mag tells you which terminal on the mag is firing at a given shaft position, which may or may not correspond to the cylinder number.

[DavidWhite]

8 minutes ago, mechanician said:

The indicator on the mag tells you which terminal on the mag is firing at a given shaft position, which may or may not correspond to the cylinder number.

 

[DavidWhite]

Thank you, I’m trying to determine the firing order 

[DavidWhite]

28 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

The two most common firing orders are 1-2-4-3, and 1-3-4-2. put some tissue paper over the cylinder spark plug holes and see which moves first while hand cranking. Then you know for sure.

 

[DavidWhite]

Thank you I will try that 

[mechanician]

If the mag terminals are fire in order 1234 as it appears that they do, and the engine fires 1-3-4-2 as Dave suggests it may, then to get 1-3-4-2 the plug wires would be connected to mag 1 to cyl 1, cyl 2 fires last so mag 4, cyl 3 fires second so mag 2 and cyl 4 fires 3rd so mag 3. This would give an “apparent” 1423 on the mag terminals as you note.

[DavidWhite]

56 minutes ago, mechanician said:

If the mag terminals are fire in order 1234 as it appears that they do, and the engine fires 1-3-4-2 as Dave suggests it may, then to get 1-3-4-2 the plug wires would be connected to mag 1 to cyl 1, cyl 2 fires last so mag 4, cyl 3 fires second so mag 2 and cyl 4 fires 3rd so mag 3. This would give an “apparent” 1423 on the mag terminals as you note.

 

[DavidWhite]

That is very interesting. Thank you.

[DavidWhite]

On 3/30/2024 at 3:13 AM, DavidWhite said:

 

Unfortunately, my DU four does not shit between the carburetor and the connection to the cam gear, but thank you

[Dandy Dave]

2 hours ago, DavidWhite said:

Unfortunately, my DU four does not shit between the carburetor and the connection to the cam gear, but thank you

Sorry to hear that. The DU4 on my White Truck don't dodo there either. Is it suppose to??? 🙃 

[Dandy Dave]

Agree that the mag is only showing which slot fires fires first-second-third-and fourth in its own rotation. To make more sense out or it inside the cap would look like this photo.

[DavidWhite]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:14 AM, Dandy Dave said:

Sorry to hear that. The DU4 on my White Truck don't dodo there either. Is it suppose to??? 🙃 

 

[DavidWhite]

Oops! Talk to text!  …does not fit…

[Lee H]

On 3/23/2024 at 11:03 AM, DavidWhite said:

Are there any known examples of this vehicle or anybody with any information? I would appreciate it greatly.

Have you looked at information in the Standard Catalog?

[DavidWhite]

The 17 Kelsey prototype is coming together. Running gear is substantially rebuilt and restored, sent the magneto out to be rebuilt. Still have not found someone to restore the carburetor. It appears to be a holly H.
 

Dry fitting the body that came with it which is a aftermarket model T body Made by Kelsey wheels manufacturing company. this is a different Kelsey. Lots of woodwork to be done to restore it. The research in the history that I have been able to do has been fascinating, among other things it has become clear that he used the front end from one of his three wheel Motorettes on this project. Having quite a time trying to figure out the missing linkages for the brakes.
 

Interesting how in this project prototype they used fenders running boards and aprons from some vehicle that I haven’t identified yet. then to make them fit the frame they also cut and stretched to fit the friction running gear.  I found no match for the radiator that was used either.  Will probably have to make a hood and hood former to match the radiator. Among other things that is interesting on this project prototype from 1917 is that the matching rear fenders, one is steel and one is aluminum. The running boards and aprons were spliced and stretched to fit the space and random roundhead machines screws were used to hold these parts to the frame. Some hex bolts were used but mostly 1/4- 20 very long roundhead machine screws with square nuts. I have found many similarities in the body of the Spartan He started back in 1910 on this car in the fenders.

 

I have still found no examples of either the Kelsey Fricken drive four wheeler or the Spartan to help me.

[DavidWhite]

[DavidWhite]

On 4/2/2024 at 10:14 AM, Lee H said:

Have you looked at information in the Standard Catalog?

Yes thank you 

[DavidWhite]

The 17 Kelsey prototype is coming together. Running gear is substantially rebuilt and restored, sent the magneto out to be rebuilt. Still have not found someone to restore the carburetor. It appears to be a holly H.
 

Dry fitting the body that came with it which is a aftermarket model T body Made by Kelsey wheels manufacturing company. this is a different Kelsey. Lots of woodwork to be done to restore it. The research in the history that I have been able to do has been fascinating, among other things it has become clear that he used the front end from one of his three wheel Motorettes on this project. Having quite a time trying to figure out the missing linkages for the brakes.
 

Interesting how in this project prototype they used fenders running boards and aprons from some vehicle that I haven’t identified yet. then to make them fit the frame they also cut and stretched to fit the friction running gear.  I found no match for the radiator that was used either.  Will probably have to make a hood and hood former to match the radiator. Among other things that is interesting on this project prototype from 1917 is that the matching rear fenders, one is steel and one is aluminum. The running boards and aprons were spliced and stretched to fit the space and random roundhead machines screws were used to hold these parts to the frame. Some hex bolts were used but mostly 1/4- 20 very long roundhead machine screws with square nuts. I have found many similarities in the body of the Spartan He started back in 1910 on this car in the fenders.

 

I have still found no examples of either the Kelsey Fricken drive four wheeler or the Spartan to help me.

[George Albright]

Great job!! Sincerely George Albright gnalbright@gmail.com 

[DavidWhite]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:26 AM, George Albright said:

Great job!! Sincerely George Albright gnalbright@gmail.com 

 

[DavidWhite]

She’s coming along. Gone through the engine, have good compression. Looking forward to the mag coming back. I have come to the conclusion that the front end was from one of his motorettes, which explains the light duty design and the short steering linkage the extends to the center. At this point in order to find a steering column that will fit the length of the firewall to where the Pitman arm was the lineup with the linkage I’m probably going to end up steering column and just extending the shaft. I have already extended the stage to extend to where the steering column would come down. 
 

with no provision for low-voltage from the mag, I have to use gas and kerosene lights. I have an extra Dodge windshield that looks like it will fit the mounting brackets once adapted.
 

I still find myself quite amazed as a technology that is in this running gear. I may be looking for your wisdom as I get closer.

 

THANK YOU, GEORGE. TAKE CARE, DAVID.