Hardware used on the 1924 Buicks

[John Nelson]

The deeper I get into the restoration of my 24/45 the more I realize how much I have to learn about restoring a car of this vintage. I have already come to the realization that every piece of this car that moves has to be completely disassembled in order to remove petrified grease and crud also to enable it to be properly inspected to see what repairs are required. I came across a crack in the the lower cap of the rear spring pivot on the third member that didn’t extend to the outside and never would have been visible without a thorough cleaning of the part. During this project I also found that the bolts holding the two half’s together are slightly stretched. Modern hardware is much stronger than the original but the head size is slightly smaller, is it considered a huge issue if modern hardware is used in higher stressed areas such as this? 

 

[27donb]

What is your goal for the end result of your restoration? 

 

To have a car that will be as authentic as possible in order to win car show awards?  (will a judge be snooping around underneath, looking for non original hardware?)

To have a car that is a "driver"?

To have a car that is visually 100% correct from the top (shiny) side, but to be extremely mechanically sound?

 

Perhaps, a mix of several of those...

 

With my own 24-45 (ongoing) project, I am constantly surprised at how many times I discover modern hardware has already replaced original hardware on my car in so many places.  The previous owner had also replaced almost every visible slotted screw with Phillips head screws.  Many times I find new headed bolts on the underside somewhere, and I intend to leave those as I don't have a supply of original hardware for which to exchange it with and for the most part they cannot be seen without crawling around under there.  However, my car will never win a car show award, and that is not my goal.

 

When possible, and when the hardware will be visible, I try to locate old hardware, or even make something new, look old.  Like ungraded bolts, or even remove the grading marks.  I use old washers when I can, especially if it can be seen when on display.   

 

Some places sell old type hardware, like high head bolts.  That proposition, can be expensive.

 

In my case, the previous owner added tube shocks to the rear axle with brackets, so the spring pivot and clamp arrangement is also missing it's bolts.  When I remove it all I will probably replace them with modern bolts, and paint them black.

 

Your original clamp bolts are slightly stretched, but not broken.  They lasted 99 years, they might last another 99.

 

If you are concerned about the strength of the suspension hardware, I would go with modern replacements.

 

Just my long winded, 2 cents opinion...

[Oregon Desert model 45]

I have an extra cap that will fit a 1924 if you want to replace the cracked one.  Axle tube diameter measured 2.48, and the raised guide or keyway is about .25 tall.    I have spent countless hours with a wire wheel removing that petrified gunk and finally found a much easier way to get it off or at least loosen it up using electrolysis.  It also takes the rust off. 

Kevin 

[John Nelson]

My end goal is to have the car appear and operate as it was originally intended to and safely. I really don’t plan on ever showing it in a judged show and don’t care if it is concours or not. I also spent 40 years in airline maintenance and there is no way I could ever use hardware that wasn’t 100% in a critical area and lets face it the original hardware used in some areas is suspect as far as metallurgy regardless. The only saving grace is in most cases they used very heavy hardware for the application. 

[John Nelson]

Thanks for the offer Kevin, I do appreciate it but the crack was on the inside surface from the grease pocket out about 3/4” long and 1/8” deep. I “V’d” it out and had it TIG welded up, should hold for another 99 years!

John

[dibarlaw]

Kevin:

 Thanks for the good rear axle cap photo. My issue on my 1925 Standard is that right side riveted guide plate on the axle tube. It had loosend up and oil leaks from it. It will drip from the lower cap and also ends up running down the stay rod and ending up at the low point. Of course if it does not leak somewhere it is not a 1920s Buick. The drivers side is fine. 

 Photos taken when I had to redo my clutch. Things had been cleaned up and painted since then.

 

[27donb]

15 hours ago, John Nelson said:

I really don’t plan on ever showing it in a judged show and don’t care if it is concours or not. I also spent 40 years in airline maintenance and there is no way I could ever use hardware that wasn’t 100% in a critical area...

 

So no worries about judging, and a background in airline maintenance...Decision made on the hardware question!

 

I also had a career in the airline industry, in the maintenance of components, but my tenure was only 35 years.

 

Over that period of time repairing and overhauling components, some that were safety of flight, whenever there was a debate over hardware and it's condition, I would always say "we are working on aircraft parts, not toasters" (no offense to anyone who works on toasters).  The motto became "when in doubt, throw it out".

 

My point being, there ARE different standards of quality.  A toaster is not an aircraft, neither is an automobile.  Buick's design and standards, even if they pale in comparisons to todays standards, have lasted for 100+ years in many cases.

 

It's your car, if you chose to (re)build it to a higher, even aircraft high, standard, that is your choice!  Make it yours!

 

Have you posted any pictures of your car / project?  I would love to see your 24-45.

[Terry Wiegand]

My Dad restored John Deere 2-Cylinder Tractors for decades.  One thing that he really impressed upon me was the replacement of any and all fasteners (threaded machine bolts, nuts of all types, and of course all flat and lock washers) because all fasteners will have been pulled and stressed upon initial assembly.  It has already been mentioned that the metallurgy was nowhere near what it is today.  That aspect alone is worth fastener replacement during a restoration.  There is a place out in Washington State by the name of Blacksmith Bolt and Supply that produces Black Oxide Machine Bolts and Screws.  When I went through the restoration on our old Buick these folks and I were on a first name basis.  Their High Head Hex Machine Bolts are almost identical to what Buick used in putting their cars together.  Good folks and great material.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Oldtech]

I very quickly lost patience with the oversize heads and odd often crooked hardware on my McLaughlin and decided to go with modern hardware everywhere. Exception being a few places where slotted screws are obvious. The original type are expensive and very difficult to find here in Can. Slotted screw hardware is almost non existent. 

[Hubert_25-25]

Modern zinc plated fasteners have 2 problems.  The head markings need to be filed off, and now the top of the bolt needs replating.  Over time depending on where you live, the zinc plating can have oxidation effects (I see this on the stuff I restored 20 years ago).   

For hex head fasteners (if it is not a high head), I usually use stainless steel.  First I use a hand file and set the bolt in the bench vise to remove the head markings.

- Run it under a 5" wire wheel and it will dull the finish and put minor scratches in it.  It looks like zinc plating.

- Polish it, and it will look like chrome.

Slotted fasteners are getting more difficult to find, and I almost always have to order them.  Bolt Depot, Albany County Fasteners, and Ebay typically have replacements in zinc or stainless or

brass.

  

Edited November 26, 2023 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

The old stuff looks different and on my own cars I don't like seeing things everywhere that obviously didn't exist when the car was made. All those screws with the combination phillips/slotted head are a good example. Thin headed bolts are another. I am my own screw police. I'm not doing any judged shows, so I'm not influenced much by that. 

 

I replate a lot of original hardware with zinc. Old hardware is usually pitted, so once the rust is removed you have to do something to prevent rust, even if there was no plating originally. It happens extremely quickly on a pitted surface that was once rusty. This is not bright zinc like in the hardware store, and not polished. I can do that, with mixed results, but it is more work and usually not appropriate. This plating is more gray like galvanized iron. Sometimes I can get it really dark if I am trying, but that is more of a crapshoot. If I can preserve the original parts, I do. An exception would be critical or highly stressed fasteners, like the ones you mentioned which have stretched. Parts like that get the best replacements I can find.

[Morgan Wright]

I was lucky to have a spare E-49 when I was fixing up my driver. Whenever I found a bolt where the head was rounded, etc., I simply got the exact same bolt off the other car. I probably took 100 parts, mostly small ones like this, off the spare one, about 10 of the grease cups were broken or missing, and there they were. Luckily, the spare car was just as rusty as my driver and rust matches rust, you can't tell the difference!

[28Buick]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, dibarlaw said:

Of course if it does not leak somewhere it is not a 1920s Buick.

Thank you for these words of wisdom. I removed the white sheets of paper and cardboard from under the car and ended the obsessive drip hunts.

[dibarlaw]

The nice thing about where I store my 1925 is that the Plumbing business that I share the space with  has an abundance of large sheets of cardboard from water heater boxes!