1928 Silverdome Engine, what is its nomen

[Jack Bennett]

I just bought a 1928, 1/2 ton panel truck. It has no transmission or drive shaft. I believe the oddball manufacture of the truck causes people to shy away from identifying the engine, even though I believe it was used in many other Chrysler Corp vehicles. The engine is a flat head, six cylinder engine with Delco electrics. 
It has a updraft carburetor and the water pump is integrated into the front of the engine block.

What is this engine called and what vehicles might I look at as donors for a transmission and drive shaft?

Edited October 15, 2023 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[3macboys]

Desoto had the Silverdome and you are right at the start of the Chrysler world in 1928 with the purchase of Dodge Bros, the start of Plymouth and Desoto.  They were not yet integrated though at that point.

[Hans1]

Can you read numbers on distributor tag?

Any other numbers on starter or generator?

 

[keiser31]

If there is a flat pad on the driver's side of the block just under the cylinder head near the front, see if there is a number stamped on it.

[3macboys]

This ebay listing for a 1928 Fargo Panel ad may actually help you out https://www.ebay.com/itm/374791086143

[Jack Bennett]

18 minutes ago, Hans1 said:

Can you read numbers on distributor tag?

Any other numbers on starter or generator?

 

Hi Hans. You are on target for my next move. At present I am trying to get the tags on the starter, generator and distributor in a condition I can read the numbers. The tags are in really bad shape and about all I can read on them are the large letters saying Delco Remy. 
I have talked to Roger (Dodger) Hartley, tech advisor for the DB Club, and we are getting together to go through his 50 year collection of Dodge Brothers material to review and, hopefully, find some answers.

[Jack Bennett]

10 minutes ago, 3macboys said:

This ebay listing for a 1928 Fargo Panel ad may actually help you out https://www.ebay.com/itm/374791086143

The eBay ads only muddy the waters for those people looking for valid information on these vehicles. Some of these pamphlets give the impression that the “Silverdome” was “A” engine. Actually it was several engines, both four and six cylinder, made between (I think) 1924 and 1976, and put in many makes of cars and trucks, Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Fargo and Maxwell, to name a few..

I am seeing loads of stuff telling me what engine this ISN’T, but I am totally awestruck that I have the only Silver Dome engine, which is 73 years old, but not one single person can tell me what it IS.

Jack

[Jack Bennett]

35 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

If there is a flat pad on the driver's side of the block just under the cylinder head near the front, see if there is a number stamped on it.

That is what I said before. The number on the pad begins with a “J”, and I am being told over and over that this isn’t a number used with these engines.

This sort of reminds me of someone asking what color hair a blond headed boy has, since it isn’t on the dye box, with the blond haired boy standing inches from their feet.

I have the engine, and I am posting photos of it……..the engine is what it is, regardless of what number is on the tag, and every Silver Dome engine, ever manufactured, which has the same manifolds, carburetor, placement of the distributor and water pump, location of the starter and generator, oil reservoir and crankcase filler tube/filter, and a lot of other identifying features is the same brand of engine regardless of a difference in numbers.

[Oldtech]

Does it say silverdome on the head?  It looks kind of Continental with the distributor on top  

[Jack Bennett]

19 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

Does it say silverdome on the head?  It looks kind of Continental with the distributor on top  

My advance apologies for doing this but 2018 was a few years ago, and when added to the 73 years an engine has been in use……well……most questions about it should have been answered.

 

[Jack Bennett]

33 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

Does it say silverdome on the head?  It looks kind of Continental with the distributor on top  

Sorry about the snide reply. I do, sincerely, appreciate your response to my post, and, perhaps I am getting burned out on this subject already.

I doubt the engine is a Contenintal, or Senior Six or whatever that choose to confuse the issue by calling it.

I may have to buy another engine if I can’t hone the bores of the one now in the truck. Regardless, I can’t plan on what I can’t do, and I do plan on returning the engine I now have to use.

The transmission shown on the Continental advertisement MAY be exactly what I am looking for since the transmission is used with a wide assortment of engines, across the brand names of several vehicles.

I need to find out the nomenclature of my engine to cross reference it against the other vehicles which may use a Senior Six, or Continental engine, regardless of the fact they were made a few years before, or a couple of years after my 1928 Fargo was made.

On this particular engine I found it remarkable that the exhaust pipe is vented from the front, rather than the rear, of the exhaust manifold. I also found the enormous exhaust gas control valve was located on the end of the front of the exhaust manifold. 
I also found it remarkable to see the way they mounted the spark advance shaft across the head, and then to the distributor, rather than the normal way of routing it across the rear of the engine with a long shift levered to the distributor.

 

[3macboys]

14 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

Sorry about the snide reply. I do, sincerely, appreciate your response to my post, and, perhaps I am getting burned out on this subject already.

I doubt the engine is a Contenintal, or Senior Six or whatever that choose to confuse the issue by calling it.

I may have to buy another engine if I can’t hone the bores of the one now in the truck. Regardless, I can’t plan on what I can’t do, and I do plan on returning the engine I now have to use.

The transmission shown on the Continental advertisement MAY be exactly what I am looking for since the transmission is used with a wide assortment of engines, across the brand names of several vehicles.

I need to find out the nomenclature of my engine to cross reference it against the other vehicles which may use a Senior Six, or Continental engine, regardless of the fact they were made a few years before, or a couple of years after my 1928 Fargo was made.

On this particular engine I found it remarkable that the exhaust pipe is vented from the front, rather than the rear, of the exhaust manifold. I also found the enormous exhaust gas control valve was located on the end of the front of the exhaust manifold. 
I also found it remarkable to see the way they mounted the spark advance shaft across the head, and then to the distributor, rather than the normal way of routing it across the rear of the engine with a long shift levered to the distributor.

 

Jack don't over think what you have.  My 30 Dodge DD6 also has the exhaust dump to the front, which I think was the last year for that but @keiser31 can likely add more information.  Remember 1928 was the first year for what we consider to be the Chrysler Corp and your truck and engine are 95 years old.  Here's another thread that gives a bit more info 

 

[Leif Holmberg]

The dash is Chrysler 1929.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chrysler+dash+1929&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjB7vnExveBAxUsAhAIHaQzAXUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=chrysler+dash+1929&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoGCAAQCBAeUKsKWPo0YNo5aABwAHgAgAEziAH-BZIBAjE3mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=gpcrZcGlLKyEwPAPpOeEqAc&bih=1283&biw=2560&rlz=1C1FKPE_svSE1042SE1042#imgrc=pzetInVaO09FAM

[DFeeney]

Please note this is 2023.  All the generation that worked on these" Back in the Day are now passed.  The information you are looking for will come out.  Be patient and thankful for members giving up their time to help.

[30DodgePanel]

13 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

That is what I said before. The number on the pad begins with a “J”, and I am being told over and over that this isn’t a number used with these engines.

This sort of reminds me of someone asking what color hair a blond headed boy has, since it isn’t on the dye box, with the blond haired boy standing inches from their feet.

I have the engine, and I am posting photos of it……..the engine is what it is, regardless of what number is on the tag, and every Silver Dome engine, ever manufactured, which has the same manifolds, carburetor, placement of the distributor and water pump, location of the starter and generator, oil reservoir and crankcase filler tube/filter, and a lot of other identifying features is the same brand of engine regardless of a difference in numbers.

Jack I sent you a PM. 

 

I believe the answers are out there but it may take all hands on deck to find the information you're looking for as no one person (that I am aware of) has all the answers for DB truck GB trucks but especially Fargo trucks. Please allow us the grace and time to help you where we can. I know you want to jump in with both feet because it's so new and because of other factors but as I keep mentioning, these trucks take a lot of patience to sort through. 

 

This bulletin below is not an answer, it's more like a sample of possibilities somehow. Is your truck a J code Standard Six? I don't recall Standard Six going that high in the sequence numbers but who knows.......

 

I don't know what the answers are, but I'm confident, together we can find those answers, just give us time to help. One day at a time. 

What's needed are Fargo confidential bulletins but without those, we are forced to put the pieces of the puzzle together the best we can. 
And keep in mind, a lot of times we will get it wrong and be careful because I've learned that just when you think we are sure of an answer other evidence comes forth to prove us wrong. At least that has been my experience in the Dodge and Graham truck research. I'd bet Fargo is no different.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Also, 

Maybe try reaching out to Wes Rinella or his son who went by the screen name wrinella2. 
He had a little 1929 Fargo Pickup that he sold and what looked like your same engine with the distributor on the side. 

 

Here's the thread Wes started several years back.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Your answers require research and a lot of it as you know by now. Here is a link to a site that you can search that may help. I use it daily for my automotive research.

HathiTrust Digital Library – Millions of books online

 

Here's an article about the 1/2 ton with a new 6 cylinder and a 1 ton truck, disregard the yellow highlights and sorry for the poor quality. Pay close attention to the wording of the interchanging of parts from passenger vehicles to trucks mindset that Chrysler had during this transition period shortly after the Dodge Brothers purchase. May shed light on topics later, and may always create more questions for all of us. If I find more regarding 1/2 ton Fargos I'll post it.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Also keep in mind while you research that they were making many changes (*) along the way which confused many issues.

 

Note the change on the bore and stroke from March 1929 to May 1929 according to these Commercial Car Journal specs.

My point being, if you follow the answers and keep track of them by dates and what occured then you may find other more prominent answers to your questions. 

 

March Specs

 

 

 

They dropped down to 3" for the bore by May.

NOTE: this may have been a typo but my point is there were key changes to pay attention to.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

A few more tidbits from Automotive Industries that you may need. I'd recommend saving as much as you can to piece things together chronologically so you can follow the changes. 

 

These copies of articles paint a picture of how the Fargo line progressed according to dates. I can't stress enough that these are very important details to pay attention to when seeking answers..

 

The main thing? Have fun with it and enjoy the journey.  

 

 

 

This introduction article from Automotive Industries is something I would treasure if I owned a Packet. I may have better copies in my library and will be happy to share them if I find them. Again note the wording "developed from passenger cars".  One of the reasons I initial had no answers for you was because I'd always assumed that a 4 cylinder was offered as per articles like these I'd read before. Of course they later offered the Packet in a 6 (we now know) but you can see why we can't assume anything. Follow the details and prove them out.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

17 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

I found some transmissions that were interchangeable in a Hollands anniversary issue in section #38. This should help narrow your search for the correct transmission.  I believe that we can safely conclude (for now, until proven otherwise) it has a DeSoto 6 Cylinder with the T2C transmission

 

And interchangeable with those in Section#36

"except for"

2TC-8 Cluster

2TC-11 H&I (High and Intermiate Gear)

2TC-16 M.D.G (Main Drive Gear)

 

meaning parts on the G. Paige transmission that end with “A” will not work for your application needs. 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

19 hours ago, Leif Holmberg said:

The dash is Chrysler 1929.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chrysler+dash+1929&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjB7vnExveBAxUsAhAIHaQzAXUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=chrysler+dash+1929&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoGCAAQCBAeUKsKWPo0YNo5aABwAHgAgAEziAH-BZIBAjE3mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=gpcrZcGlLKyEwPAPpOeEqAc&bih=1283&biw=2560&rlz=1C1FKPE_svSE1042SE1042#imgrc=pzetInVaO09FAM

Hi Lief……..Your post sort of confirmed what I already believed about the Fargo Express Panel.

The buyout of Dodge Brothers took place in 1928, and Desoto, in Canada, did not make the first Canadian Chrysler until 1929.

This was in observance of a contractual agreement between Dodge Brothers  and Chrysler Corp, which is another subject, for another thread.

When I first looked at the truck the seller said it was a 1929, and then changed his FB ad to read 1928.

Regardless, worrying about it will only add to my gray hair, and I already have too much of that.

Thanks for the link. No piece of information is unimportant regarding this old truck.

Jack

 

[Jack Bennett]

8 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I found some transmissions that were interchangeable in a Hollands anniversary issue in section #38. This should help narrow your search for the correct transmission.  I believe that we can safely conclude (for now, until proven otherwise) it has a DeSoto 6 Cylinder with the T2C transmission

 

And interchangeable with those in Section#36

"except for"

2TC-8 Cluster

2TC-11 H&I (High and Intermiate Gear)

2TC-16 M.D.G (Main Drive Gear)

 

meaning parts on the G. Paige transmission that end with “A” will not work for your application needs. 

 

Thanks so much for the time and effort you’re putting into this project.

My cup runneth over….or at least as much as it will hold today, so I’m going to save some of this for tomorrow when my brain is more flexible.

I’ll post a few photos of the progress on the truck too.

Jacl

[30DodgePanel]

My apologies if I've asked this before @Jack Bennett, but does your truck have a FEDCO plate on the dash anywhere? If the Fedco plate is there, it will lend clues to the true nature of this truck.

 

Fargo truck dash should be different, but as we know by the implications of the articles, they may have used passenger car parts. 

This transition period has thrown larger curve balls at me and wouldn't surprise me if they used a Chrysler dash in your truck.

Sometimes, I really wish I could get my hands on those execs who made these calls that still plague us all these years later as researchers and purists.

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:30 PM, Jack Bennett said:

My advance apologies for doing this but 2018 was a few years ago, and when added to the 73 years an engine has been in use……well……most questions about it should have been answered.

 

 

I agree, they should have been answered by now, thanks again to the transition years and the evident lack of concern to save the information as we researchers and owners are left to unravel a complex set of riddles as we hunt like dogs for validating documentation that may or may not even exist at this point. In all honesty, whenever I find anything new I get excited because it usually answers one question but provokes many others. As I said in my PM, the true study of Dodge, Graham and now Fargo trucks is a study I wish on no one. It can consume you in many ways, but then again I love the research aspect so I feel I'm built for it. Whether or not I can maintain that stamina for years is yet to be seen. I realize and respect the fact that you are not in that position and will continue to try and help and speed the process along the best I can, where I can, and when I can.

 

In regards to the Senior Six engine being built by Continental. Since 2018 I've found a few documents that prove Continental did indeed build that engine for Dodge Brothers. I suppose I should update that thread you referred to. Rest assured though, your truck is not a Senior Six so you can completely eliminate that all together.

 

WIll be a busy work week with overtime but I'll try and poke my head in once in a while if I uncover anything new.

Regards
Dave

[Jack Bennett]

4 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

My apologies if I've asked this before @Jack Bennett, but does your truck have a FEDCO plate on the dash anywhere? If the Fedco plate is there, it will lend clues to the true nature of this truck.

 

Fargo truck dash should be different, but as we know by the implications of the articles, they may have used passenger car parts. 

This transition period has thrown larger curve balls at me and wouldn't surprise me if they used a Chrysler dash in your truck.

Sometimes, I really wish I could get my hands on those execs who made these calls that still plague us all these years later as researchers and purists.

 

 

To answer your first question about the FEDCO Tag. I have looked the truck over from front to back, and top to bottom, and I can find no tag, of any sort, with a number on it. The riser for the floor boards is missing, but the flat part, which extends from the seat to the riser is there. But, the one which is there has no tag, and is barely identifiable, because of rot, as being a floor board.

Yesterday I pressure washed the whole truck and knocked a layer or two of the seventy plus years of accumulated crud and rust off the truck. It will take a lot more scraping, wire brush and pressure washing to get to the bare metal on several places around the truck, but when I do, I am certain more identification numbers will be revealed. And, I think numbers off the differential, axles, starter, generator, distributor, radiator and other parts of the truck will disclose a bit more about its history.

Next page……I have answered a ad on Hennings which provided me with the email address of a person, apparently a non-member, who has, what he advertises, as four new tires for $225.00 plus shipping. The photo of the tires shows them still in factory wrapping, and he says they have not been unwrapped since new. Amazingly, the tires for this truck, from Coker, runs about half the cost of the tires for either my Willys or my Dodge Roadster. I’ll say more each but less than $150.00 each, so $225.00 for four is a reasonable price.

And, another AACA member has provided me with the email address of another person, apparently, also a non-member who , they say, has a transmission and drive shaft for sale.

I have emailed both and have received an answer back and they say the tires are still available. 
I have no clue where either is located, what their experience with on-line sales and shipping is, and most certainly whether or not they are legitimate sellers or scammers…………any input on this sort of transaction?

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

I now believe that engine is the same engine that was in the 1929 Chrysler 65. However, the Chrysler engine was in the Clipper 3/4 ton and not the Packet 1/2 ton. All the DeSoto 6 cylinders I've found have the distributor on the side for Fargo 1/2 tons.

 

 

Since there is no Fedco plate I'd say it's time to send away to the Chrysler Museum to see if they can provide a build card based on any numbers you can provide them.

 

 

 

 

April 1940 Victor Gasket Catalog

 

I believe all three of these photos are of the DeSoto 6 that was in the Packet. 

 

 

 

 

From the article I posted above. Note the body on both the 1/2 ton Packet and 3/4 ton Clipper were interchangeable so I presume they must have been the same wheelbase with only a difference in a thicker frame for the Clipper with Lovejoy shocks and a few other exceptions. This tells me your drive shaft should come from a 1929 Chrysler 65 chassis.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[3macboys]

Can you give us a picture of the full dash - from driver's door to passenger's door - it might help