Electra63 Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 Hello. 1963 Electra with 401 engine and dynaflow transmission I have a leaking oil pan (quite wet) and am considering removing the pan to re-seal but also to clean it, do a basic check on the internal condition of the engine (i.e. look for any broken rings, cracked pistons etc) and also check the oil pump as I read that the idler shaft can slip on the old aluminum pumps. Anyway, in deciding how to tackle this I read that it can be done with the engine in the car. However it needs the cross link dropped, the exhausts disconnected and, with mine, the distributor would probably have to be removed as its right up next to the blower box on the firewall. concerned about re-installing and having to reset/adjust the timing when its back in as it runs fine right now. My son suggested perhaps removing the engine instead. If I have to do all that work, perhaps removing the engine might not take much more time and I'd be able to replace the engine mounts as well. However, I'm concerned about putting it back in especially making sure its re-aligned and re-attaching it to the transmission correctly (balance concerns etc). I dont want to create more problems for myself as it's all original and in good running condition except for some vibration when idling and revved in neutral (leading me to think its engine related, not trans), plus oil leaks and a noise like a stuck lifter but it comes from the back of the engine underneath which is why I want to check the oil pump idler shaft as mentioned here on nailheadbuick.com - quote: "The 1962-66 oil pumps are a good pump and can be rebuilt if not worn too badly but we have seen many where the idler gear shaft has worked its way up and hitting the crank counter weight" Could this be causing my noise? Can anyone offer their opinion/experience/advice on removing and replacing the engine v just lifting it in place to do the oil pan and perhaps the oil pump? thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 If there is enough room to remove the distributor I would think there is enough room to raise the engine some without hitting the distributor. It might mean you would need to raise the transmission some as you raise the engine. maybe all you need to do is remove the distributor cap and that will give you room and reduce the chance that the cap will get damaged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 17, 2023 Author Share Posted April 17, 2023 Good point. I'll probably take the cap off first and see how much extra clearance it gives me. I think mine is the HEI or 'elephants foot' as the nailheadbiuck.com guys call it ! i.e. its quite big.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 Obviously you would have to remove the exhaust regardless if you pulled the engine or just removed the pan, so take that out of the equation. You also have to disconnect the engine mounts to either raise the engine a few inches or pull it out. You won't have to remove the electrical connections, A/C and power steering pump, the lower inspection plate, the flywheel to converter bolts, shore up the Dynaflow front and possibly pull the radiator to just raise the engine a few inches. And, in some Buick applications you may not have to raise the engine at all but instead rotate the crankshaft to clear the journals as the pan is pulled backwards, although to me raising the engine those few inches seems a bit easier. You may have to drop the center link but that could be as easy as unbolting the idler arm bracket. Does your factory service manual give any extra clues to this task? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 17, 2023 Author Share Posted April 17, 2023 41 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: Obviously you would have to remove the exhaust regardless if you pulled the engine or just removed the pan, so take that out of the equation. You also have to disconnect the engine mounts to either raise the engine a few inches or pull it out. You won't have to remove the electrical connections, A/C and power steering pump, the lower inspection plate, the flywheel to converter bolts, shore up the Dynaflow front and possibly pull the radiator to just raise the engine a few inches. And, in some Buick applications you may not have to raise the engine at all but instead rotate the crankshaft to clear the journals as the pan is pulled backwards, although to me raising the engine those few inches seems a bit easier. You may have to drop the center link but that could be as easy as unbolting the idler arm bracket. Does your factory service manual give any extra clues to this task? Hi and thanks for the comments No unfortunately I cannot find anything in the shop manual about how to do this in the vehicle, hence my researching it online etc. Your list of additional tasks does push me towards trying to do the job in the vehicle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Pulling the engine would certainly allow for a more thorough cleaning and gasket replacement operation. The downside, of course, is all of the 'hidden' tasks that will be exposed with the engine out (e.g., engine bay cleanup, detailing, motor mounts, timing chain replacement, etc...). If the leaky oil pan is the only immediate issue, I'd be inclined to try in-car oil pan gasket replacement first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62Lesabre Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Following this topic, as I too am looking at doing this same thing on my 62. Previous owner had work done at a repair shop and they noted it needed motor mounts and looking at the pan it needs a gasket as well. I too would like to not pull the engine to do this task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 3 hours ago, EmTee said: Pulling the engine would certainly allow for a more thorough cleaning and gasket replacement operation. The downside, of course, is all of the 'hidden' tasks that will be exposed with the engine out (e.g., engine bay cleanup, detailing, motor mounts, timing chain replacement, etc...). If the leaky oil pan is the only immediate issue, I'd be inclined to try in-car oil pan gasket replacement first... OR JUST DRIVE THE DARN THING! Perhaps I am an outlier but small oil leaks do not bother me. There is a limit, I guess. Somewhere between no add between changes and 1 or 2 quarts between changes. Ben 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 18, 2023 Author Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: OR JUST DRIVE THE DARN THING! Perhaps I am an outlier but small oil leaks do not bother me. There is a limit, I guess. Somewhere between no add between changes and 1 or 2 quarts between changes. Ben Hey Bruce. Thanks for the reality check . I do share your point of view in general. I don't plan to remove or rebuild the engine as long as its running and I'm pretty sure there will always be an oil leak and leaks from the Dynaflow, diff etc too. I went to the Petersen museum in LA last week and there was a Concours condition E-Type Jaguar in there. Every surface, seats, controls etc were immaculate and guess what? there was a drip tray under the diff ! 🥴 To be expected with these old vehicles ! The main reason I'm considering the pan is so I can do a basic inspection of the bottom end of the engine and check that the oil pump idler shaft is not hitting the crank balance weight as mentioned earlier. I want to understand this vehicle a bit, having only owned it for a few months. After that all I want to do is enjoy driving it on a regular basis. If it wasn't for the noise at the rear lower back end I'd probably live with the leak(s). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 18, 2023 Author Share Posted April 18, 2023 4 hours ago, EmTee said: Pulling the engine would certainly allow for a more thorough cleaning and gasket replacement operation. The downside, of course, is all of the 'hidden' tasks that will be exposed with the engine out (e.g., engine bay cleanup, detailing, motor mounts, timing chain replacement, etc...). If the leaky oil pan is the only immediate issue, I'd be inclined to try in-car oil pan gasket replacement first... Thanks EmTee. That's the direction I'm leaning in at the moment... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 18, 2023 Author Share Posted April 18, 2023 3 hours ago, 62Lesabre said: Following this topic, as I too am looking at doing this same thing on my 62. Previous owner had work done at a repair shop and they noted it needed motor mounts and looking at the pan it needs a gasket as well. I too would like to not pull the engine to do this task. Here are a couple of links that might help you in case you haven't seen them already... https://www.nailheadbuick.com/post/pulling-the-oil-pan-with-the-engine-in-the-car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) I have removed the pan from my '64 Riviera with the engine in the car. There is clearance with the distributor cap removed. The four pan bolts above the cross member can be removed with a 1/4" drive socket set. From your reasons I would just get under there with the 1/4" drive and tighten all the bolts. You might be surprised at the minimum work really required. Removing distributors seems to be a lot like remembering "Klaatu barada nikto" during casual conversation. When I was about 30 years old I made a vow never to remove a distributor unless I pointed the rotor 90 degrees with the firewall and never rotate the engine while it is out. That only works for general service but has saved me a lot of grief. Don't pull the engine. It opens the opportunity to many "good intentions". One weekend I thought I would clean some exposed wire ends. Led to a two year job. Edited April 18, 2023 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 I recently replaced the oil pump and cleaned the pan on my '63 Riviera with the engine in the car. Follow the instructions on the website that Electra63 posted and you should be fine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 18, 2023 Author Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said: I have removed the pan from my '64 Riviera with the engine in the car. There is clearance with the distributor cap removed. The four pan bolts above the cross member can be removed with a 1/4" drive socket set. From your reasons I would just get under there with the 1/4" drive and tighten all the bolts. You might be surprised at the minimum work really required. Removing distributors seems to be a lot like remembering "Klaatu barada nikto" during casual conversation. When I was about 30 years old I made a vow never to remove a distributor unless I pointed the rotor 90 degrees with the firewall and never rotate the engine while it is out. That only works for general service but has saved me a lot of grief. Don't pull the engine. It opens the opportunity to many "good intentions". One weekend I thought I would clean some exposed wire ends. Led to a two year job. Ha ha - thanks Nope - I'm not up for the slippery slope of scope creep ! Ugh My son is gung ho but I prefer minimum effort and max driving time ! I'll do it in the vehicle Mark 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share Posted April 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Aaron65 said: I recently replaced the oil pump and cleaned the pan on my '63 Riviera with the engine in the car. Follow the instructions on the website that Electra63 posted and you should be fine. very good to hear - that's everything I had in mind - thanks for the confirmation ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 19, 2023 Author Share Posted April 19, 2023 21 hours ago, Aaron65 said: I recently replaced the oil pump and cleaned the pan on my '63 Riviera with the engine in the car. Follow the instructions on the website that Electra63 posted and you should be fine. @Aaron65 One question that's not 100% clear for me... When you jacked up the engine I assume you did it on the oil pan with a piece of lumber between the oil pan and the jack? Question: Did you jack it on the lower section of the pan, where the drain plug is located (a in the photo), or on the section behind it where the pan is not so deep (and perhaps a bit less likely to bend) - b in the photo? I assume it was a location a? I've always been told never to jack engines under the pan so hence I'm double checking to be sure I dont damage the pan thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 I jacked it up under "a" with a block of wood between the jack and the pan. Once it was jacked up high enough, I used wood to block up the engine at the motor mounts. Be careful! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Electra63 said: I've always been told never to jack engines under the pan so hence I'm double checking to be sure I dont damage the pan You can also jack it up by putting a bottle jack under the balancer. and I like the wood between the motor mounts ides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 20, 2023 Author Share Posted April 20, 2023 Thanks to you both for the quick replies. Yes, the guys at nailheadbuick recommend spacers between the mounts once its raised up and I thought that sounded like an excellent idea - that's my plan I'll also get a decent width piece of wood between the pan and the jack in order to spread the load on the bottom of the pan as much as possible Now I've just got to find the time and get the necessary gaskets etc I'll post how it went once I'm done, in case it's useful to others later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62Lesabre Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 15 hours ago, Electra63 said: Thanks to you both for the quick replies. Yes, the guys at nailheadbuick recommend spacers between the mounts once its raised up and I thought that sounded like an excellent idea - that's my plan I'll also get a decent width piece of wood between the pan and the jack in order to spread the load on the bottom of the pan as much as possible Now I've just got to find the time and get the necessary gaskets etc I'll post how it went once I'm done, in case it's useful to others later. Please do. Im looking at doing this once the weather stays a little warmer up here in Michigan. Plan on replacing the pan gasket, motor/trans mounts, rear main seal and cleaning up the pan and painting it all in one shot (hopefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 17 hours ago, JohnD1956 said: You can also jack it up by putting a bottle jack under the balancer. 53 people just had heart attacks while reading this🤣 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 6 hours ago, Smartin said: 53 people just had heart attacks while reading this well, I'm not too old to be schooled. Continue. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 I do the same thing, John. But some people think that if you lift the engine up a few inches with the balancer, the world is going to end. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 If the 60 year old dried and cracked rubber is stressed damage could be caused. It is a precaution like the guys who don't step on their brakes too hard avoiding blowing a rusty line. On the oil pan, I haven't lifted one by the pan and wouldn't. But I have purchased engine that sat on the pan and got compression dents in the side that brought the pan in contact with the crank throws. The 350-430-455 Buicks have a shallow pan and can do that. Sometimes you run into a car fitted with a universal self tapping oil drain plug. The drain plug screws into a drilled and threaded plate tack welded to the inside of the pan. Always check and eliminate those kind of repairs and make things right while the pan is off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 21, 2023 Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) Well I've ordered all the parts I think I'll need so waiting for those plus my 28 year old son to be available for some additional manpower and a second set of eyes. Also made a list of tasks and parts need in order to try to stay organized! I usually jump in first and then get stuck. Not this time as the car won't fit in the garage while I'm working on it so I've got to be organized! ...oh and also spoke to Matt at nailhead Buick who was super helpful Unfortunately it looks like the previous owner installed a HEI distributor which Matt strongly advise against due to wrong curve so I'll have to think about that one at some point... Hopefully I'll get to the pan job in the next few days I also ordered motor mounts as I found them for 7.99 each at AutoZone. If I can't manage to change them with the engine in the car it won't have broken the bank 🙂 Edited April 21, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Electra63 said: I also ordered motor mounts as I found them for 7.99 each at AutoZone. I hope they fit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Electra63 said: I usually jump in first and then get stuck. Ah, certified by The Richard Scarry School of Management? I have worked for a few. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 21, 2023 Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, EmTee said: I hope they fit... Right...they look the same as others that I'm confident about and the website says they fit my vehicle 🥴🙃🤔 We shall see....if not they will be back to the local store for a refund...which will just about cover a burger and fries or 3 gallons of gas at California prices ! 😐 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 I used the Rock Auto mounts on the Riviera and they fit fine. Time will tell if they hold up. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Aaron65 said: I used the Rock Auto mounts on the Riviera and they fit fine. Time will tell if they hold up. Thanks Aaron. Yeah - they are Duralast which I believe is the Autozone in-house brand. They have the same reference number and the photo looks the same as the Anchor brand sold by Rock Auto and I think Summit Racing so perhaps its the same manufacturer.. I'm sure they'll be an improvement on the solid, cracked ones I can see under my engine ! 😲 Edited April 22, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 Mine were the Anchor brand. I also used an Anchor transmission mount for a '78 Riviera 403 (after looking at old posts around here - I think RivNut suggested it?), and slotted the transmission crossmember to make it work, thereby saving over 100 dollars. The old one was SHOT, so you may want to look at yours. My old motor mounts were totally separated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Aaron65 said: My old motor mounts were totally separated... Yep - look exactly like mine ! I'll look into the trans mount for sure - thanks By the way. Did you disconnect the shift linkage from your transmission? On my Dynaflow there is a horizontal link that has a plastic bushing in the frame member. Looking at the geometry I'm just a bit concerned that as the transmission lifts, it might impact that link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Aaron65 said: I also used an Anchor transmission mount for a '78 Riviera 403 Is this the mount you used? Not sure it'll work on my 63 Dynaflow I searched around and couldn't find the post you mentioned about using a modified '78 mount sorry for the slew of questions. Thanks for your help ! Edited April 22, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) That is the mount I used. It's not a straight up swap, because the original doesn't have the stud on the bottom. The stud sits right between the two original holes on the crossmember, so I just cut a slot in between with an angle grinder. I tried to drill out the back hole to give it more room, but it wasn't enough. Getting the crossmember out is a little more of a pain that I liked, as the bolts holding it to the frame are a little out of the way, and if you add 60 years of grease, it's a miserable job. I did, however, get it done in about two hours in the driveway after work, and it greatly reduced a terrible vibration I had in my seat. The old mount was almost unrecognizable as a transmission mount. I didn't disconnect the "kickdown" rod at the frame, but I did have it disconnected at the carburetor, because the heads were off at the time. I also had the distributor cap off, so you may want to do that (not pull the heads, but the distributor cap). Edited April 22, 2023 by Aaron65 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 16 hours ago, Electra63 said: they are Duralast which I believe is the Autozone in-house brand. They have the same reference number and the photo looks the same as the Anchor brand sold by Rock Auto and I think Summit Racing so perhaps its the same FYI. The mounts arrived today and they look good. They are also labeled made in USA 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 If your going to remove oil pan, purchase snap-ups from Fel-Pro or Dorman to aid installing oil pan and gasket. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 23, 2023 Author Share Posted April 23, 2023 1 hour ago, NailheadBob said: purchase snap-ups from Fel-Pro or Dorman to aid installing oil pan and gasket Oh wow. Never heard of them before. Look very useful - thanks for the suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electra63 Posted April 23, 2023 Author Share Posted April 23, 2023 I checked the oil pressure today as suggested by Matt at nailhead Buick and it's low. Matt said the engines need a full 40 psi. When cold it read about 32 at idle and 35-36 at about 1200-1500 rpm. When it warmed up it was lower. About 32 at 1200 rpm and only about 25 at idle. I did add a quart of Rislone about 2-3 weeks ago and driven it short distances since then. Could that have thinned the oil and cause lower oil pressure ? ... otherwise can anyone advise from their experience if this likely indicates a bad oil pump? If so I would prefer to have one available as a replacement just in case... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 Worn main, rod, and cam bearing clearances can cause low oil pressure, as can a worn out oil pump. Since you're going to take the pan off, I'd install a new oil pump, and I would definitely verify my oil pressure with another gauge. The other day, I was checking my fuel pressure: one gauge read 3 psi and the other read over 4 psi, which is a big difference in the world of mechanical fuel pumps (in my opinion). The service manual says that oil pressure should be 40 psi at 1600 rpm (I assume that's with the oil warmed up). After you finish the oil pan/pump, you may want to go up one step on your oil weight. If you're at 10W30 now, maybe try 15W40. I'd have a hard time personally justifying tearing an engine apart for new bearings over 5 psi oil pressure, especially if you don't beat on the car very hard, but that's just my opinion. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 7 hours ago, Electra63 said: I checked the oil pressure today as suggested by Matt at nailhead Buick and it's low. Matt said the engines need a full 40 psi. When cold it read about 32 at idle and 35-36 at about 1200-1500 rpm. When it warmed up it was lower. About 32 at 1200 rpm and only about 25 at idle. I did add a quart of Rislone about 2-3 weeks ago and driven it short distances since then. Could that have thinned the oil and cause lower oil pressure ? ... otherwise can anyone advise from their experience if this likely indicates a bad oil pump? If so I would prefer to have one available as a replacement just in case... Thanks Read the manual. I believe that is well within range for an everyday driver, but cannot recall your cars milage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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