ChryslerMarkus Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Hi Guys, I'm from Germany and have a 1952/1953 Chrysler Imperial Hardtop Coupe with HEMI and Fluid Torque Drive - clunk-o-matic and M6 transmission. The model with the torque converter and which has its own oil supply (not supplied by the engine) I got the car partially restored from the USA and am now trying to do the rest of the things, which is very difficult in Germany, there is no scene or know-how here at all. The engine now runs well, the gearbox shifts well most of the time. I can pull away in top and bottom gear and when I let off the gas it shifts to 2nd in bottom and 4th in top. It takes a few miles for this to work when the car is cold, but then it works quite well. I refilled the transmission oil with engine oil. So far I haven't refilled anything in the torque converter - there is reddish oil in there which looks good like normal automatic oil - but I don't know if it's the right thing. The problem: Sometimes - not always - when I pull away with the clutch or in all gears - especially when I put load on the transmission, i.e. accelerate especially on the mountain, the power flow is suddenly interrupted with a metallic click. It feels like a gear has jumped out. The car then no longer drives. I then depress the clutch and then if I let it come back on slowly or stop or let off the throttle it goes back to normal. I've looked for solutions in various forums and also in the good old workshop manuals and videos from Chrysler. Various problems and solutions are described everywhere, but my problem is nowhere to be found. Because it interrupts the flow of power in all gears under load and when accelerating, I think it's a key problem. Even if none of you know this problem or had the problem yourself, maybe someone can help you with how this gearbox works technically and where the problem could be. As I understood, the gears are shifted via an electric and hydraulic control. My guess is either a problem with the electro-hydraulic control so that the gears aren't held when the engine torque gets too high. I just think that the gears jump out, as is sometimes the case with broken manual transmissions. But it's in all gears, not just one gear. Or could it be a problem with the clutch? It can't really be the torque converter, can it? Do you have any ideas or opinions on this? I would be very happy if someone who knows the gearbox would like to engage in a technical discussion with me. Many thanks and greetings from Germany Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 A good start would be to drop the transmission pan and take filter out , check for metallic particles and what color the particles are , if you see a lot of shiny particles of metal or maybe some brass color ……you probably have a more serious problem ,black sludge is fairly normal in the pan to a point , sometimes I cut the filter open as well , to see what particles are in it ,if your lucky and there is no mechanical damage , it could be a case of fluid shortage due to plugged filter , also I do not really trust additives, but I find some transmission conditioners actually work ……depending on the problem ……..and can extend the life of the transmission and solve some certain small problems , “transmedic” is one brand it cleans and softens hardened rubber seals in the transmission 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 I do know of a car the same close by where I live and it is a 4 door with low mileage , if it ended up that you need a transmission ……but the shipping cost …..wow ….I can’t imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 Hi arcticbuicks, First of all, thank you for your contribution to the discussion! The first thing I did was change the transmission oil. It was a little short of it, but only 10-20%. And yes - the old oil had contained small shavings that shimmered silver. Do you have any idea where the chips could come from? Thank you very much if you continue to give me what you know about it. Nice greetings from Germany Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Silver could be clutch material ('normal' wear). Yellow, brass, or bronze colored shavings would be more serious and indicate failing hard parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 Thank you everyone for the input!!! I have the next few days to clarify and review your comments. Please stay in the discussion, I will solve the problem here. Everyone here in Germany - everyone! loves this car, me too 🙂 But there are difficult problems, but I will solve them. stay tuned Greetings from Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge28 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Hi Chrysler Markus, what you are describing here is a converter problem. The converter is bolted between the engine and gearbox. This gismo works exactly like a converter in a automatic transmission car. Most units are welded sealed. It is like 2 pieces of cooking pots , with 2 fans and bearings inside, and the 2 pieces pots welded together. There is a port on one pot used for filling the assembly with transmission oil , by holding the assembly at the 2 pm position. Sometimes there could be a pinhole in the weld and over time the oil will leak out .This will render the assembly to work erratically. Sometimes the blades of the fans inside get broken. If that is the case take it to a machine shop who will set it up in a lathe and cut it open. The parts should be available in the U.S. Then fill the assembly by holding it with the filler hole at the 2 pm position and fill with automatic transmission fluid. After installation check for leaks while running. Also when it is out shake it violently and listen for rattling noise coming from inside. You will also need to remove the plug and drain the oil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 31 minutes ago, dodge28 said: Hi Chrysler Markus, what you are describing here is a converter problem. The converter is bolted between the engine and gearbox. This gismo works exactly like a converter in a automatic transmission car. Most units are welded sealed. It is like 2 pieces of cooking pots , with 2 fans and bearings inside, and the 2 pieces pots welded together. There is a port on one pot used for filling the assembly with transmission oil , by holding the assembly at the 2 pm position. Sometimes there could be a pinhole in the weld and over time the oil will leak out .This will render the assembly to work erratically. Sometimes the blades of the fans inside get broken. If that is the case take it to a machine shop who will set it up in a lathe and cut it open. The parts should be available in the U.S. Then fill the assembly by holding it with the filler hole at the 2 pm position and fill with automatic transmission fluid. After installation check for leaks while running. Also when it is out shake it violently and listen for rattling noise coming from inside. You will also need to remove the plug and drain the oil You have described the Fluid Drive, the Fluid Torque Drive is different. Torque converters have an outside oil supply. Some had an oil pan under the Fluid Torque Drive, some had an oil feed from the engine. I believe the 1953 Imperial had the oil feed from the engine. That model had an oversize engine oil pan that holds 10 or 11 quarts. The Fluid Torque Drive torque converter will always be full as long as the engine oil pan is full. The symptom could be a broken torque converter, I do not know how to test it, perhaps the manual has some suggestions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan G Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 I have a 49 with the Fluid Drive/Presto-Matic. Once I got it on the road, it seemed to do okay unless I gave it too much gas. Long ago I had an old Chevy with a Powerglide that slipped really bad, and that's how it felt and acted. If I accelerated gently it was okay. I sort of had to "sneak up" on it. I did a lot of research, assuming the worst (internal transmission failure.) It was a worn-out clutch. If this were a standard transmission, I would have had no choice but to have blamed the clutch in the beginning, but it was too easy to blame the other components. Once I had the clutch replaced, everything was fine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 You could be right about the clutch. These cars have a very small clutch. You are not supposed to use it like a manual trans car, you are supposed to release the clutch quickly and depend on the slippage of the Fluid Drive or Torque Converter. Too much slipping of the clutch will wear it out, I have seen this before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roysboystoys Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 ChryslerMarkus, Have you checked the clutch free play adjustment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge28 Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Rusty, thanks for the correction. It is a long time ago since I worked on them gismos. I am a heavy truck retiree . I came across these on some industrial equipment. One way to test a rebuilt for pinhole leaks before installing is to fill with air and dunk in water. Look for bubbles . I do not remember much now. I am 87 years old and sometimes I have to dig the old cranium to see what I can find. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 Hello, everyone, Your posts are very interesting. Of course I hope that I can get the problem under control without major intervention on the inside. I have the Fluid Torque Drive - i.e. with a torque converter with its own oil supply (not via the engine) I find it interesting that you are considering the converter as a possible problem, I would not have thought so, also because I have the metal abrasion in the gearbox, but let's hope for the best.... 🙂 I changed the oil in the gearbox, I just checked the oil in the converter. I don't know what's in there. It is reddish and thin and looks like normal ATF oil - what normal automatic transmissions also have in the converter. The shop manual says that high quality SAE 10 W engine oil goes in there. The car's clutch is very small for the big engine, that's true. Rapid wear is likely, but I know worn clutches mainly with slipping and grinding, which is not the case for me. Everything works very well but under hard acceleration there is a short and hard break and shortly after that it works again. Hoping that it's relatively easy to solve 🙂 I do next: - Check and adjust the clutch play (no, I haven't done this before) - Change the oil in the converter with the correct oil and the correct oil level - there is also a detailed description for this in the shop manual. I will take this opportunity to check the converter as best I can. This will take a few days, I have to order the oil and wait a good day, I only have one bridge outside and it's winter here and lots of rain and snow...... I will report and hope you all join the discussion again...... Nice greetings from germany Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 (edited) The clutch in your FTD is a 10". A bang.... then the trans pops out of high gear either range in the M6 transmissioncoyld be caused by... ***weak transmission oil pressure (less than 40lbs) ***transmission oil pump drive gear pin possibly loose /worn. Could cause the oil pump to not rotate. There's a service bulletin on this issue...doubt this is your issue. ***worn input shaft/direct speed blocker ring and sleeve...pointed syncro gear teeth get worn causing popping out of gear.....opping out oy high gear vauses the small synco teeth to get worn down quickly ***Possibly oily governor points/ weak solenoid / or Wiring ussues . The FTD "converter" only transmits engine power to the hydraulically operated M6 transmission.⁹ It should not cause the transmission to suddenly drop out of high gear. A picture of M5/M6 parts/gears that get quickly damaged when popping out of high gear.. The "Imperial Web Pages" site has some info as does the youtube "MyMopar.com" site search way back to find the 1949-52 transmissin and FD , FTD service video's. Edited January 17, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Not a fluid torq expert but 2 things come to my head. 1 is the transmission coming out of gear. This will make a bang and the engine will rev un-controlled with no drag. The second thought is the stator one way clutch in the converting slipping. This will not make the bang that you would get from gears, and the engine will rev but there will still be some drive. But it will seem like a lot of slippage. Hope this is helpful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpwalter Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 (edited) If memory serves me right those transmissions are designed to run on 10 weight oil. Just quickly browsing through the discussion I did not see that mentioned. Regular transmission fluid will not work properly. Edited January 17, 2023 by cpwalter (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Yep...The trans says "Warning 10W Oil" right on a brass tag....an M_5 shown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerPHX Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Markus, I have a similar problem with my 1948 Chrysler with the M-6 and Fluid Drive. I don't know the solution, so I will follow this thread and see if I can also benefit. I've never been able to get the kickdown to work and if I start out in low range, it will "back out" or grind after it upshifts. Once I shift to high range, it works fine. I also read the Service Reference Book on the Imperial Club site and can't say it helped me to understand any better. I'd recommend reading the book "Transmission, brakes, shock absorber tips" Volume 4 number 12 in the 1951 series on the Imperial site as it comes at the transmission from a different angle. I hope we can both benefit from the wealth of knowledge here, as I am also facing the task of putting a Fluid Torque transmission to work in my '52 New Yorker. I've driven a friends' '51 New Yorker and it was a very fun drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 hey guys, I don't have a solution yet, but I would like to give you a brief update. I changed the converter oil and checked the clutch play.The old converter oil looked good, and there was enough in it.There were also no traces of metal abrasion in the old converter oil.I don't think the converter is the problem.The clutch play is fine. The problem I have here is that I only have one bridge/ramp outside and it's winter here with snow, lots of rain and storms.Besides, I have to work.Unfortunately, things are not going as quickly as I would like at the moment. After the oil change, I wanted to go for a test drive right away, but suddenly the car ran very badly and I almost never came back to the garage.I didn't understand that, I only changed the torque converter oil, but now there's a problem with the ignition, it's probably coincidence and there's no connection, I've been looking for the problem but haven't found it yet.Before that the car ran very well......... 😞 I need to find the engine problem, take a test drive and further isolate the transmission problem. I'll definitely get back to you and thank you all if you stick with my problem...... I'll get back to you, until then, Greetings from old cold Germany Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 If it ran ok at first and then ran poorly, I would start looking at the choke. It could be over choking or under choking in the cold as the engine warms up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 Yes that could be. I have the problem that he gets too much gas and drowns.But sometimes it has no spark.When changing the oil in the converter I had to let it idle for about 20 minutes - it ran very well with no problems.Then I went for a test drive and the problem started.I can still get it started, but it barely throttles and drowns after a few minutes.I will check your hint! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 If gas is flowing out of the bowl vent tube, then your float is stuck or the needle valve is worn and not sealing properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 You're right, that could also be the case In order to check everything, the engine has to be running, at the moment I took out the spark plugs and ordered new spark plugs and ignition cables, it will take a few days until they are here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 Hi guys, Now I can finally report something new, it took a while because of bad weather, only one ramp outside, engine problems, and bad test drive opportunities because of the weather. Because of engine problems: I replaced all the spark plugs and cables and then it worked perfectly again, that was the fact that suddenly many cables and spark plugs were partly defective, it's strange that it happened so suddenly..... Back to the gearbox: I only checked the clutch play and most importantly changed the oil in the converter. The old oil looked good and had enough in it and there were no metal shavings. But I don't know what oil that was. It looked reddish. I put good Sae w 10 engine oil and exactly the amount specified in the workshop manual and the oil then ran exactly out of the filler hole with the engine running. So all good. Test drive: It is much better!!! The problem is now only at full throttle and very strong acceleration and high speeds and only in 1 + 2 gear. Normally I wouldn't drive the car that hard. It must have been a problem with the converter, which some of you have suspected as well. Maybe the oil was just wrong. But the funny thing is that (I think) a problem with the converter (or the clutch) should result in slippage, but the problem is a hard sudden metallic bang and complete loss of propulsion. That's weird and I can't explain it. Maybe you still have answers. As it is now I could live with it because it goes away with normal driving, I don't want to drive the car on the drag strip. There may still be too little or too much oil in the converter, there are different statements about this in the workshop manual. When the converter oil is changed, the engine should be left running and refilled until oil comes out of the filler hole. However, the converter does not get really warm. In a normal test to see if there is enough oil in it, the converter should have warmed up. I know that with automatic transmissions and converters, however, that it makes a clear difference in the oil level whether the converter is warm or cold. If you have a dipstick, the level is different whether cold or warm, but here I only have the filler opening as a measuring instrument. Do you have any opinions? Maybe I can get rid of the problem completely if I optimize the oil level. Many Greetings from still old cold Germany Markus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 Transmission issue...popping out of gear (high range).. Possibl because of trans circuit electrical issue.. Low transmission oil presure ******Worn Input shaft, direct speed blocker ring and sleeve***** Teeth get worn...trans bangs out of high range under hravy throttle acceleration or up steeper grades 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 Hi guys, I did another test drive and unfortunately the problem is back or still there, normal again in 1+2, but no longer in 3+4. I don't understand why it was so much better on the first test drive right after changing the torque converter oil..... Do you still have answers to my question about checking the oil level? Anyway: since the gears jump out spontaneously and hard and with a metallic click, I actually no longer believe that the problem is with the converter or the clutch, then it would have to be more of a slipping. c49er .... you write .... "in high gear", for me it is mainly in 1+2 gear, sometimes it was also in 3+4 gear - but not anymore, even at full throttle, not on the mountain and 50-60 miles. So the problem is/was in all gears and now rather only in the lower gears 1+2 Do you mean "in high gear" the 2nd and 4th gear (i.e. the gears that are automatically engaged hydraulically) Are these also held by the oil pressure? And if it's also in 1st and 3rd gear - are these also held by the oil pressure (or by the electrics?) Do you have any pointers to gear problems within the transmission - does this also relate to the "all gears" problem??? Of course, I hope that the problem can be solved outside of the transmission and I would start there first. I don't trust myself to disassemble the gearbox and there is nobody here in Germany who knows about it. What I didn't quite understand: The oil pressure together with the electrics gives the impulse for the (automatic) shifting from 1 to 2 or from 3 to 4. Is the oil pressure (or the electrics) still necessary to keep the gear engaged ? If so, then it could be that with heavy acceleration/load on the gearbox or higher revs, the oil pressure is not sufficient to leave the gear engaged and the gear then jumps out. Is this the case for all 4 gears? How can I check the oil pressure? c49er - you write that must be more than 40 lbs - the chrysler workshop manual only explains a diffuse test for oil pressure without a gauge - how can I check that? If the electrical is the problem, where could that be for my problem? I checked the Governor's silver contact points - but only with my eyes - it all looks very good. Where else could the problem be with the electrics and oil pressure and how can I check it? I've read the Chrysler Workshop Manuals, they are informative (and funny) but they don't describe my problem, I don't understand everything either and I can't derive anything.... A problem with the electrics is probably that the electrics/engine cut-off is necessary to realize the automatic shifting process from 1 to 2 and from 3 to 4. This works fine for me. If that's the fault and the electrics cut off the engine at full throttle, could it be that the gear jumps out because the gearbox thinks it needs to shift or the oil hydraulics cut off?? What could be the problem with the electrics and how can I check it? Oh that's a lot of questions...... I know my problem is specific and the Chrysler manuals and videos don't have a direct answer to it - please let me know your guesses, I'll have to find this myself of course..... Thanks again for your opinions and support! Best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 As this is basically a 4 speed manual transmission behind a torque converter it is my fear that you have worn gears or bearings that are allowing the gear to work out under acceleration. The only fix for this is to pull the transmission and look into it. I hope I'm wrong, but unless there are tricks with the hydraulic shifter mechanism that I can't see, it seems like it. I have experienced several transmissions jumping out of gear over the years and it is almost always mechanical wear, if not the gears themselves, then the bearing that runs in the back of the input shaft, or just too much endplay in the output shaft. Others with actual Chrysler M6 experience will hopefully have more ideas. Most of my transmission experience is GM and Ford. I think any competent shop that works on standard transmissions, as in trucks, could repair this as long as you can find whatever parts are necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 I have read this whole thread several times and am still puzzled. I have no clear idea of what the problem is. If the trans is jumping out of gear that should be obvious. But if it is not, I suspect the over running clutch is at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted February 26, 2023 Author Share Posted February 26, 2023 Hi together, like Rusty OToole, I'm at a loss - you mentioned the over running clutch - do you mean the freewheel gear in the transmission? Some of you are pointing out a problem within the gearbox - that's my fear too, but I want to rule out everything outside. If it's a classic gear skipping on a manual transmission, it's usually only the case with 1-2 gears, but for me it's the case with all gears. And .... if I then briefly take my foot off the gas and then step on the gas again, the gear is back in place, sometimes also the lower gear (probably due to loss of speed). With a normal manual transmission, the gear would then be completely outside. So it must be something central somehow... c49er mentioned twice: Worn input shaft, direct speed blocker ring and sleeve Question for you: would that fit with the fact that it happens in ALL gears (you mentioned high gear) and after letting off the gas the gear (or a lower one) is back in? or as Rusty-OToole meant the over running clutch (freewheel gear?) in the transmission and a few more questions for c49er: - Where can I find the service bulletin for measuring / checking oil pressure? - the gearbox has a cover with 6 or 7 screws through which the shift linkage goes into the gearbox - I could remove this without removing the gearbox and look inside the gearbox and check a few things - does that make sense and can I use the parts you described check like this? - Is it realistic that I can get gearbox parts as spare parts??? I still have to familiarize myself with the topic of oil pressure and especially the electrics c49er thanks for the tips about the videos, I found some there that I didn't know yet, but I'll have to watch them a few more times, also because my English isn't perfect, I can always use Google translate for text. Many thanks and best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 Yes, I mean the freewheel gear. If the trans is jumping out of gear it should take the shift linkage with it. It is possible to attach a pressure gauge to the transmission to test the oil pressure. If the pressure is good and the shift controls are working then the shifting mechanism is not at fault. I suppose there could be a short in the wiring to the shift controls but that would be obvious on inspecting the wiring. If you have the factory repair manual, or some of the videos and information online, then it is possible to figure out the shifting mechanism. It is not difficult or complicated, if you break it down to its separate systems and learn them one at a time. There is a manual shifting mechanism from the gear lever. It gives Reverse - Low Range - High Range There is a hydraulic piston in the transmission. It gives 2 positions Low Gear - High Gear There are 3 electric controls on the transmission Governor Solenoid and Switch There are 2 switches on the carburetor Wide Open throttle and Completely Closed throttle There is a little control box connected to the coil with a resistor and the other thing Then there are 2 or 3 wires connecting everything together. Most common faults are loose or frayed wiring, low oil, idle too high but I think you have eliminated all those. This jumping out of gear is a new one, have not heard of that happening before, except on badly worn manual transmissions that like to jump out of low gear. But when that happens it is obvious because the gear lever jumps to neutral. I don't know what is wrong but if you eliminate all the above, then the fault must be inside the transmission. These transmissions are very strong and seldom wear or give trouble but I suppose after all these years anything is possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 thanks Rusty OToole for the hints... Exactly - if a gear jumps out, he should actually take the shift linkage with him - but that doesn't happen. However, due to the electro-hydraulic control, this transmission is somewhat different from a normal manual transmission. I've checked a lot of things, but not everything and I haven't done any measurements (oil and electrical). I will continue to work on everything as best as I can. Through your many hints and my own considerations, I am more and more coming to the realization that in case of doubt it is in the gearbox and since it does not seem to have jumped out of a gear, the interruption in traction will have another cause, probably what c49er says. I'll keep going and keep you posted. stay tuned Best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Disconnect the 6v power feed to the circuit braeker/resistor block and drive it around the neighbor hood to see if it fully upshifts and won't bang drop out of high 4 th gear. Temember wit out electrical it will not ever auto down shift till you come to a complete standing stop and push the clutch in. Also do not try to back up unless the transmission has downshifted at a complete stop. This way of testing with out electrical controls is only to see if it will always upshift and stay upshifted. It will prove the transmission internal gears and pump are good. If the trans still pops outnof high gear (2nd or 4th ) most likely a internal transmission issue.....direct speed blocker ring ans sleeve, input shaft and possible oil pump pressure or drive pin issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 Hi together, I was able to try a few things and here is my report: I checked some things first, as Rusty O'Toole said, and also the workshop manual and videos: - Cables and electrics look good, I also measured some things but probably not everything that is possible, I don't think that's the problem either - Checked the transmission oil level again, that's good and this time there were no metal particles in the oil (like before the oil was changed) - I have not measured the oil pressure, I have an oil pressure gauge, but only with metric adapters, not inch - Torque converter oil is also good according to service manual - I gave the clutch more play, although the adjustment was good, but I wanted to be sure Then I did the test of c49er and cut the power to the circuit breaker/transmission. Test drive: The transmission did not downshift automatically, but the problem remained, but only in 1+2 gear, not in 3+4 gear. It was the same as after changing the converter oil. It is only in 1+2 gear but no longer in 3+4 gear, the first test drive after changing the oil in the converter was very good, it was only in 1+2 gear at very high speeds and full throttle. If the propulsion is interrupted in 1+2, the gear stays in 1 or 2 right after that depending on the speed, once the problem situation was but in 2 at high speed and after that the gear was in 1 even though the speed was too high for 1 it has therefore switched from 2 to 1, although the electrical system was disconnected. But the freewheeling in 1 worked well, you could feel that at the high speed. I have also further familiarized myself with the functionality of the gearbox and have the (theoretical) question for you: The problem was before the oil change converter in all gears (1 + 2 + 3 + 4) after the oil change converter now only in 1 + 2. I don't think the converter is the problem at all, but the oil change could have caused the converter to slip more and not give as much power to the whole system, so the problem isn't as severe. What do you think? And: The problems you describe are probably typical for the gearbox and are also described in the workshop manual and videos. But: Problems with the electrics or hydraulics or input shaft or blocker ring or sleeve would only have to be in high gear 2 or 4, right? Problem with freewheeling should only be in 1 or 3 since freewheeling is only for 1 or 3 right? But my problem is in all gears (since changing the oil converter but only in 1 or 2) Which component could always be affected? I no longer believe there is a problem in the transmission because I have not found a component in the transmission that can cause the problem in all gears? What do you think? There may be a specific (and new to this transmission) problem that is more in the converter or clutch area, possibly a broken/worn shaft. It would certainly be best to remove and disassemble everything, but I have limited options, the ramp outside I can't take everything out because I can't leave the car there, I would have to lie under the car and take everything out and I have not even the special tool to disassemble everything and I can't find any company here that is familiar with the gearbox. In any case, it would be good to know what it can only be in the end. And: after changing the oil converter, the problem was almost gone, only with very hard acceleration in gear 1+2, now worse again, but that would have been possible without any problems, nobody drives that hard in a car like this. I want to continue looking for a solution without disassembling everything and look forward to your comments! Thanks and best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 I am not sure what the problem is. I thought it was slipping out of gear or free wheeling, now it seems it is only doing it in Low range? Could you describe the problem in simple terms? The gearbox is a very simple and rugged 3 speed manual box with the addition of a simple hydraulic shifter. This shifter has only 2 positions, and the three electric controls you know about. Anyone who is familiar with manual transmissions should be able to repair it, with the aid of the factory repair manual and of course, American size tools. There are far more complex manual transmissions in millions of European cars and trucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 Hi Rusty-OToole, I have the 4 speed Fluid Torque Drive. I can shift into 1st and 3rd gear with the selector lever and 2nd and 4th gear is automatically shifted electro-hydraulically. It all works fine for me. In normal driving everything shifts up and down fine. The problem is when accelerating hard and at full throttle there is a hard interruption in traction. It feels like a gear is slipping out but I'm sure it's not because the shifter stays in position. The problem is basically in all 4 gears. There is probably a typical problem with these transmissions that a lack of oil pressure cannot hold gears 2 and 4. I understand that, but it's also in 1 and 3 for me. The oil pressure can't be responsible for that. The freewheeling gear is actually only engaged in 1+3 gears (that's how I understand it......) If that was the problem it shouldn't pop out in 2 and 4....... After changing the torque converter oil, the problem was no longer at all in 3 and 4 and in 1 and 2 only with extreme acceleration. However, I don't think that the problem was solved, but that the converter with the new oil only put less load on the system. Now it's earlier again in 1 and 2, but still no more in 3 and 4. My whole problem doesn't fit into the typical gearbox problem description. The problem is when high revs and/or a lot of power is put on the whole system, something kicks out/gives up/breaks up. And that in all 4 gears, even if I can no longer provoke the problem in 3 and 4 at the moment. If I briefly interrupt the throttle, traction is immediately there again and it continues. The positive developments after changing the torque converter oil encourage me to keep looking for a solution, I don't want to race with the car. I believe that with more torque converter slip the problem will no longer occur because the torque on the system is reduced. I know the German workshop scene well. Here, if I try to take a rare and special inch-sized gearbox to a workshop, the answer will be "Oh no thanks" or "Oh yes we do it for a lot of money but it still won't work". Unfortunately, we don't have the structures here like you do in the US, especially for US-specific parts. A Mercedes is easier to repair here...... 😉 I'll have to do it myself, but I'm looking for a workable solution and, in the worst case, I want to know what's broken beforehand. I want to try to find out which component is really defective and to solve it myself. I can only find it myself but communicating with you helps me a lot! Which parts in the system can be affected in all gears even if this is atypical for the system? Thanks and best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Is it possible the clutch is slipping? A worn clutch may hold under gentle acceleration and slip under full power. These transmissions have a conventional clutch but it is a small one and prone to wear if abused. You are not supposed to slip it like a manual gearbox, you are supposed to release the clutch quickly then depend on the torque converter, like an automatic box. Drivers who do not know this, and slip the clutch, can wear it out prematurely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 A 10-1/4" diameter clutch is used with FTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChryslerMarkus Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Hi together, Yes, I am suspicious of the clutch. However, I know the symptom of a slipping clutch differently, rather than slipping and not as suddenly. But of course it is conceivable that there might be something else defective in the clutch. I had already checked the clutch play at the very beginning of my search, it was good, the clutch also works well in other respects and as I know from other cars. A week ago I tried increasing the clutch play further, but there was no change. And Rusty-OToole, you're probably right about the operation. I've only been operating the car as you describe it for a while - especially with the converter. The car was never registered here and in the early days (and still now) I maneuvered a lot - in and out of the garage, back and forth in the yard, and above all up my ramp, which is very steep at driving up - I did that a lot and often with a slipping clutch...... It would also fit that changing the torque converter oil has brought an overall improvement - if the converter now slips more, it would take load / power from the entire system and especially the clutch. As a next step, I want to continue experimenting with the clutch and continue to test it and continue to familiarize myself with it. I have to wait a few days for that - there's snow again here (10 inches!!) and it doesn't want to be spring. At the moment I can neither test drive nor drive onto the ramp. At this point I would like to ask you where I can get spare parts - for example the clutch or other special parts? Thank you and best regards Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Andy Bernbaum Auto Parts https://www.oldmoparts.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAjbagBhD3ARIsANRrqEt5mqwH4FBvVyHghJrQ5VMVpHloy_8cZDC3XQY9ldTvDeF7Ib3ndGQaAnlPEALw_wcB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpwalter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 When you change the oil you never mention what kind you use. Is it 10 weight oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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