Two Buick Brochures depicting two different items as correct

[Turbinator]

Gents, this is majoring in minutiae. I have  1963 Buick Engineer approved brochure showing a Dinsmore Compass being appropriate for the 63 Buick. I also have a 1963 three ring binder 81/2”x 5” size Buick spec book. Each document shows two different Dinsmore compasses as correct. Are both compasses correct for the 63 Buick?

 

[MCHinson]

If both documents are legitimate Buick factory documentation, then you could have either compass on your car without deduction for authenticity, as long as you have the document showing that particular compass in case you are asked for documentation. As a practical matter, unless the compass is in perfect, as new, condition, you would be better off without the compass for judging purposes.   

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, MCHinson said:

unless the compass is in perfect, as new, condition, you would be better off without the compass for judging purposes.   

Thank you very much for helping out on this item. It would make sense anything you have on your car for judging would be in new like condition. However more information about the nuance of judging can only help.

Thank again.

Bob Burnopp

[MCHinson]

Probably easier to express in conversation than by typing but, in judging, often the concept has been expressed that "Less is more". If the car has zero accessories, it loses zero points on those accessories because they are not there to be judged. Any accessory has the chance of costing a point if the judge sees an issue with the condition of the accessory. With that said, if an accessory is correct (with documentation) and perfect you can certainly enjoy having the accessory on the car and have it judged along with the car. 

[Turbinator]

I never thought of it that way. I might and might not have my car judged on a 400 point basis. I modified the exhaust and the fasteners under the hood are not factory correct. For instance the hose clamps are not Corbin style clamps. I’ve had my plug wires changed so they are routed different than the original plug wires. Little things like that keep the car from being original. Still, it might be a sales feature to have a score card to point out things to a prospective buyer.

Bob Burnopp

PS the original question was based on one gent saying only one of the compasses was correct for the 63 Riviera. The accessory book he had might well indeed only shop one type of compass. However my document came from a 1963 Buick spec book showing another style compass. My friend maintains his info is correct and my info is not correct. It is hard to refute the written word showing two different items on two different pieces of authentic literature.

[61polara]

Welcome to the world of factory documentation.  Many times you will find that a factory accessory, especially one from an outside supplier, changes during the production year and nothing is absolute.  Factory documentation is your friend.

[Walt G]

things get changed to availability. If the one style compass was ordered in a quantity of 600 but they were not available then perhaps another style that was, was used to replace it rather then have to tell a customer " no we can't sell you one".

[Restorer32]

Is your '63 Spec Book actually published by Buick?  Is your "engineer approved" brochure published by Buick? 

[Turbinator]

Restorer 32, the spec book is published by Buick as well as the brochure.

You raise an idea that is food for thought. Are the documents authentic? I believe the docs are the real deal based on my experience pouring over factory manuals and brochures of different sorts over the years. I can be wrong, but I believe I have the correct information. In addition the Buick Spec book I viewed and copied is owned by a long time collector of literature and parts for first generation Buick Rivieras.

Thank you

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:41 PM, Walt G said:

" no we can't sell you one".

Walt, that is truly the last thing any dealer wants to say to a buying customer.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:07 PM, 61polara said:

Factory documentation is your friend.

gents, I found a gent that said he had an original factory brochure showing the color of a certain item in a 63 Riviera. The gent claimed the proof was in the visual of a 57 year old plus color brochure? I did not think so. For sake of common sense the factory documentation is the best we have in writing. Friendly help and support helping find a solution to a problem that is hobby based is typically met with "Thank you". Color needs to be defined with paint codes as far as I'm concerned and sometimes the codes do not exist. For instance color codes for dash color in 63-65 Riviera eludes me. I'm probably not looking in the right place.

Turbinator

[95Cardinal]

Are both compass styles shown for the same Buick model?

Perhaps both ARE correct, depending on the model.

 

If you are going to get the car judged, the above advice regarding accessories is on point.

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, 95Cardinal said:

If you are going to get the car judged, the above advice regarding accessories is on point.

Thank you. I’m not getting the car judged. I was after which document had the answer. I believe both documents are correct. The two compasses are made by Dinsmore in Flint MI. My compass has a bracket that mounts with my rear view mirror. The compass has a small incandescent bulb that lights at night. I like that sort of accessory in a car.

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, 95Cardinal said:

Are both compass styles shown for the same Buick model?

Perhaps both ARE correct, depending on the model.

 

If you are going to get the car judged, the above advice regarding accessories is on point.

As a matter of fact, one Buick brochure is for the Riviera only. The Riviera only shows a dash mounted compass. The 1963 Buick Engineer approved accessories brochure are for all Buicks. Since the Riviera is a Buick I would think all the accessories apply to the 63 Riviera. 

[Dynaflash8]

I won a Senior award with a Buick Riviera that had one of those compass's in it.  Mine said BUICK right on the front of it.  I also had black vinyl rub strips down the side of that car which were shown in one of those booklet's, as well as a correct accessory unmarked stainless license plat frame that also pictured in the booklet.

[Turbinator]

15 hours ago, Dynaflash8 said:

I won a Senior award with a Buick Riviera that had one of those compass's in it.  Mine said BUICK right on the front of it.  I also had black vinyl rub strips down the side of that car which were shown in one of those booklet's, as well as a correct accessory unmarked stainless license plat frame that also pictured in the booklet.

DynaFlash, congratulations on you senior award. Your car was obviously in tip top condition to earn such an award.

i believe I viewed a BUICK marked compass that was barrel shaped as opposed to the modern “Star Wars “ like dash mounted compass design.

In any case I’m certain the appearance was right snappy. I’m partial to the Dinsmore compass design that can be mounted under the rear view mirror. The Dinsmore that lights up with the tiny incandescent bulb adds to the compass.

Nothing like outfitting your car the way you, the owner, likes to see the car. My 63 Riv is not 100% stock, but I am 100% Buick. Thank you for your comments.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

Was the stainless license plate holder for front mounting on your Riviera?

Thank you

Turbinator

[Dynaflash8]

11 hours ago, Turbinator said:

DynaFlash, congratulations on you senior award. Your car was obviously in tip top condition to earn such an award.

i believe I viewed a BUICK marked compass that was barrel shaped as opposed to the modern “Star Wars “ like dash mounted compass design.

In any case I’m certain the appearance was right snappy. I’m partial to the Dinsmore compass design that can be mounted under the rear view mirror. The Dinsmore that lights up with the tiny incandescent bulb adds to the compass.

Nothing like outfitting your car the way you, the owner, likes to see the car. My 63 Riv is not 100% stock, but I am 100% Buick. Thank you for your comments.

Turbinator

The one I had was attached under the rear view mirror as well.

[Dynaflash8]

On 4/18/2022 at 10:45 AM, Turbinator said:

Was the stainless license plate holder for front mounting on your Riviera?

Thank you

Turbinator

No, the rear.  Had snaps on the inside that held it to the pull-down license plate over the gastank filler.

 

[Turbinator]

Happened to find a Dinsmore I have with chrome like finish. This compass was described by Buick in a 1963 Buick spec book for all 63 Buicks. According to the book the compass in the pic is Buick Engineer approved. In addition I have 1963 Buick Engineer approved brochure showing the “ Star Wars “ style dash mounted Dinsmore Compass as Buick Engineer approved. I am of the opinion Buick had two approved compasses for 1963 Buicks.

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:09 PM, Turbinator said:

Gents, this is majoring in minutiae. I have  1963 Buick Engineer approved brochure showing a Dinsmore Compass being appropriate for the 63 Buick. I also have a 1963 three ring binder 81/2”x 5” size Buick spec book. Each document shows two different Dinsmore compasses as correct. Are both compasses correct for the 63 Buick?

 

Bob, for what it is worth, my ‘63 which was built in October/November ‘62 came with the Star Wars style compass when I bought it. It was a high end build with lots of options including leather. No doubt the original owner had it installed when he had it delivered.
 

At the time I didn’t like the look from day one and removed it and eventually sold it for a fraction of what I now realise they are valued at!

 

In Australia we didn’t need a compass so much as in the US with your dedicated numbered highways as 101North or 235West. But if you can find one they certainly are the go. BTW were probably used across the ‘63 range too!

 

Just my two bobs worth
Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

 

[Turbinator]

Rodney, thanks for your observation. The Buick Specifications book for all 1963 that showed the style I like was a mistake. Secondly, another 63 Buick Spec book a Buick Wildcat owner showed did not have my style compass in his book. The Buick Wildcat owner’s book showed the Starwars type compass and a barrel shaped compass with GM on the face.

I would speculate the person that compiled my Spec book simply did not have the correct compass info about the compass at the time the book was printed. 
In another instance regarding the proper grain pattern on the dash pad for the 63,64, and 65 Riviera is the hair cell pattern. Ive found hair cell pattern is the grain pattern of the hair side of the animal skin. Leather can come from cows, pigs, ostrich, alligator, crocodile, and thanks to the Chinese the dog hide. My sources for the grain info is from personal experience of slaughtering pigs and cows, a tanner, and an upholsterer, and print materials. My point is Ive seen two distinct hair cell patterns for thr 63,64,and 65 Buick Riviera. The two patterns are indiscriminately mixed in the 63-65 Riviera. How would I know? I upholster 63-65 Buick Riviera dash pads and use an ABS vinyl plastic single piece designed to be a direct fit for 63 and 64-65 dash pads. Ive searched so far to find suppliers refer to the dash grain pattern as Madrid. I contend when the vinyl was embossed for the 63-65 Rivieras the vinyl came from two suppliers. Each supplier had a different hair cell pattern. The Buick buyer was splitting the business between the two suppliers to keep the peace or the Buick buyer dare not run out of ANY embossed vinyl so he bought from both suppliers.

Errors and honest inconsistency happen in this spec arena for spec books and Service Manuals. The 63 Service manual says the AC compressor needs 3.5 lbs of R12. If you want cold air you better put in 4 lbs plus.

My opinion is misprints, errors happen in the 63 Riviera spec books. Interpretation of the truth with a capital “T” is not worth the time. Reason is evidence at the ROA meets precious few Rivieras Ive seen are 100% stock. Its not bad, it is many of us personalize our stock Rivieras with different wheels and different tires. Other differences could very well be compasses, additional radio speakers , and even the color of the car. 
So, is an inconsistency in a Buick spec book wrong? How do we prove it is a misprint? Evidence is required then the evidence must be proven. Let us interview the experts to form a jury.

Rodney, thanks for your input by taking the time to post good solid remarks.

Bob

 

[Turbinator]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:13 AM, Restorer32 said:

Is your '63 Spec Book actually published by Buick?  Is your "engineer approved" brochure published by Buick? 

The brochure I mentioned was an error or my part. I do not have a published brochure of my Dinsmore compass. The photocopy I took of my Dinsmore compass was taken from a 1963 Buick spec book with colors and fabric samples. The 63 Spec book is owned by Gene Guarnere.

[Turbinator]

On 4/10/2022 at 7:29 PM, Turbinator said:

As a matter of fact, one Buick brochure is for the Riviera only. The Riviera only shows a dash mounted compass. The 1963 Buick Engineer approved accessories brochure are for all Buicks. Since the Riviera is a Buick I would think all the accessories apply to the 63 Riviera. 

Here we are 2023 and I had the 63 Riviera judged at the AACA meet in Hershey 2022. I was delighted for the car to receive a recognition award in my class as Junior Third. The award means I had the third highest point tally im my class for a first year showing. Not a word was said about my compass. I have American Classic Radial bias look tires that look pretty good to me, but the judges said they have to be original bias tires even though they looked like bias. I let it go and thanked the captain of the judging team for volunteering.