Choke ???

[likeold]

Anyone ever install a manual choke on a 38 Buick, can it be done, my choke does not work?

[Jim Nelson]

Can do.   I stopped using mine.   Since we have the manual throttle,  I use that .   The choke Buick uses is fair at best.    So,  its the KISS  principal works well.    

[likeold]

I like that, yesterday I tried starting my car it's been sitting for about a week and it's been cold the choke does not work at all and she took a while to get going maybe I just need to figure out how many times to pump the gas pedal or something 

[Jim Nelson]

You do have an electric boost pump don't you ?    That unit is a life saver.   One day out on the road,  my fuel pump died.  I figured out that problem by turning on my electric boost pump and the car ran,  so I took it straight home and replaced the mechanical pump.   No need to call a tow truck to get home.     This way you can let the car - rest- for a while - using a trickle charger.   Then using the boost pump after disconnecting the trickle charger,  pump the gas several times and off it goes.  

[Jim Nelson]

6 volt boost pump is a Airtex  E8011.    If you have a 12 volt system,  use a Airtex E8016S.   That with a battery trickle charger,  your good for long sleep's when necessary.     Pull the charger,  turn on the boost pump until the pump stops,  pump the throttle 2 or 3 times and hit the starter.   That works for me.     Sometimes a month or so with out running is no big deal.   

[Jim Nelson]

BTW,  I bought my Airtex pumps thru 'Walmart' for good pricing.....

[Jim Nelson]

Thats tough on batteries even when they are fully charged.   That means a good drive to charge it back.   

[likeold]

I Have heard of people putting in something like this or an electric fuel pump with a switch and they just turn it on for a few minutes before they try to start the car, It sounds like your idea keeps pressure on the system all the time Is that right?

[Jim Nelson]

Yup,  thats the ticket !   That is the minimum needs to run our old cars today.   The boost pump is on a separate switch so it operates only when you need it.    I highly recommend joining a club like the 36-38 club.   They are a 'drivers' club.   They go places driving their pre=war cars.   They have nuts like me who like driving my '38' Buick almost every where.   Prior to the crap where every thing as closed down,  I drove from Tampa Florida to Nashville Tenn. and back.    1800 + round trip.   

[Jim Nelson]

No,  the car likes the original fuel pump.   The boost pump is only used when you need some gas to the carb.   If you remember,  gas will evaporate from the card when you leave the car parked for over night.   warm engines encourage evaporate nicely.    The boost pumps I've bought are low pressure pumps that will keep you working with out problems.   Higher pressure pumps will cause the needle / seat in the carb to leak ?    2 or 3 psig is all the carb needs to work.  there is a vent in the top of your carb that will leak fuel if your needle/seat is overcome with to much pressure.   

[likeold]

Okay sounds good I was concerned when you talked about battery drain and so on so on a switch makes me feel comfortable, I  will check these out, thanks. I took a closer look of possibly putting on a manual choke cable but I don't see anywhere where you can hook it up to the choke butterfly looks like a pain in the neck

[likeold]

Where do you mount this a little electric fuel pump between the gas tank and the original fuel pump or between the fuel pump and the carburetor or does it matter?

[Jim Nelson]

Normally mounted along the inside if the frame in front of the tank.   I can send you a pix of where mine is located.   I assume your talented with  tubing cutters, rubber hose and basic wiring.     The more room you have under your car,  the easier it becomes.    I have som pix I need because I'm reducing inventoty so it may be a few days. ?   

[likeold]

Great thanks yes I can do all that just wasn't sure on what side to mount the pump. I can't find the exact one available that you mentioned but I found another one I think will work just as well with good reviews on Amazon.

 

AUTOKAY 6 volt Electric Fuel Pump

[Bloo]

I am resistant to the idea of electric pumps, and a well sorted mechanical pump can work fine in hot weather. My 36 Pontiac went all over the place in 104F-106F for the last few summers. That said, if you are going to do it, the method @Jim Nelson (and a few others on the forum) advocate, with a switch, and only used when needed, is by far the best way. The problem of having to crank a long time after an extended sit because all the gas is evaporated is a very real one. I'll admit it would be extremely convenient to push a button.

 

52 minutes ago, likeold said:

Where do you mount this a little electric fuel pump between the gas tank and the original fuel pump or between the fuel pump and the carburetor or does it matter?

 

Take @Jim Nelson's advice and put it in the back as close to the tank as you can. That way it can push fuel through a boiled line under the car. If you put it up front, it will struggle to get a prime when that happens just like the mechanical pump does.

 

Note: That is not the only form of "vapor lock", just a very common one. There are several other ways a car can fail to start or run because of heat.

 

7 hours ago, likeold said:

I like that, yesterday I tried starting my car it's been sitting for about a week and it's been cold the choke does not work at all and she took a while to get going maybe I just need to figure out how many times to pump the gas pedal or something 

 

Maybe, but the "dry carb after a sitting a few days" issue happens to almost everyone these days. On the other hand, 37-38 Buicks were famous for choke problems. Do you have an original carb? Do you have a Delco choke? That is a separate box mounted down on the manifold that twists a cable. Someone else on here may know best how to sort that out. A carb from a slightly newer Buick Eight with a Carter-type hot air choke (a round housing up by the choke plate) is a common way to get rid of the Delco choke if you intend to. You do have to arrange a hot air stove to feed the Carter-type choke, but it is not tough to do. In my opinion manual choke conversions are rubbish.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[likeold]

I think the electric fuel pump with a switch is a good start. As the car will start and stall a few times as I pump the gas pedal to get it going, this is only when its cold, she starts right up hot. So maybe if I pressurize the fuel system with the electric fuel pump she'll start right up and keep running, Not a big deal to install so I think I'll go for that first. I'm not sure what I have on there for a carburetor, But yes it does have something in the intake manifold It looks like it should operate the choke And it is free But the butterfly never closes. Also you might have seen in my previous post that I had to take the butterfly out of the exhaust manifold that was frozen and causing back pressure. Looking under the car it seems like about midpoint Is the best place to get at the fuel line and mount the little pump, I hope that's close enough to the fuel tank to work satisfactorily.

Edited December 12, 2021 by likeold (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

If you live and drive the car in a cooler area the choke still needs to work. I'm in Canada and starting cold with no choke like I hear you warm country guys do, simply doesn't work up here.  Early automatic chokes are temperamental at best, but changing to a manual usually means you will loose the fast idle function. However, lots have done it.  I have been successful getting the auto choke to work on older vehicles by fiddling and sometimes modifying the mechanism. That would be my first choice.  Main idea is not too much choke. Use the minimum that does the job. If it lopes after starting you have too much. Fast idle cams can be another problem but are fixable. Usually by grinding the top part (fastest) down to something reasonable, then readjusting the position. 

[likeold]

4 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

If you live and drive the car in a cooler area the choke still needs to work. I'm in Canada and starting cold with no choke like I hear you warm country guys do, simply doesn't work up here.  Early automatic chokes are temperamental at best, but changing to a manual usually means you will loose the fast idle function. However, lots have done it.  I have been successful getting the auto choke to work on older vehicles by fiddling and sometimes modifying the mechanism. That would be my first choice.  Main idea is not too much choke. Use the minimum that does the job. If it lopes after starting you have too much. Fast idle cams can be another problem but are fixable. Usually by grinding the top part (fastest) down to something reasonable, then readjusting the position. 

 

I hear you but this car is more of a summer driver even though I had it out today and it was only 45°. I keep it in a semi-heated garage and it seems like it's starving for gas more than it needs to be choked when I first start it cold after she's been sitting for a while. Keep in mind this car has cable for giving it extra throttle.

[carbking]

1937 and 1938 Buick carburetors

 

Electric fuel pumps and older vehicles

 

Jon.

[Jim Nelson]

well, I guess that 35 to 45 doesn't quality :-).     The engine needs to have more fuel till it gets into the 120* range.     Using the throttle to keep it running smoothly works.      A functioning choke lets the engine run slower while adding more fuel to get there.    The Buick engineers had fun trying to make it operating simply.    I'll check my carb for a hook up for a choke.   A mechanical operated choke must be adjusted as the car warms up.    So, my solution was run the engine a-bit above idle and change idle as it warms up.   That means about a mile or so to get it up there.    I don't rush it.   The big cast Iron engines require some time to bring the Iron up to operating temps.     I have fun trying to get my  engine to idle under 5-550 rpm.   .   

[Oldtech]

46 minutes ago, likeold said:

 

I hear you but this car is more of a summer driver even though I had it out today and it was only 45°. I keep it in a semi-heated garage and it seems like it's starving for gas more than it needs to be choked when I first start it cold after she's been sitting for a while. Keep in mind this car has cable for giving it extra throttle.

What Carburetor do you have?

[likeold]

I'm not sure what carburetor I have I will have to take a closer look and take a few pics of it maybe someone can clarify what it is. I ordered the little electric fuel pump that I'm going to install midcar nnd probably going to hook it to a button instead of a switch, that way I'll just hold the button in for a few seconds or so that way I know that it's off when I take my finger off the button. At least I'm going to try that at first.

[EmTee]

Matt installed a similar setup on the '38 Century that I bought from him.  There's a toggle switch controlling the electric fuel pump mounted right in front of the tank (passenger side) basically under the rear seat.  My Delco automatic choke is currently disabled.  My routine for cold starting has been to energize the pump until the pitch changes (usually 5 to 10 seconds), pump the gas 2 or 3 times and hit the starter.  It generally fires right up, but I'll need to feather the gas as I raise the idle speed using the throttle knob.  I'll let it warm up at fast idle for a couple of minutes, decreasing the throttle as it warms up.  After a couple of minutes I can drive away without any stumble.  I do plan to attempt to get my automatic choke working at some point, but it's not a high priority right now...

[DonMicheletti]

The original '38 automatic choke mechanism is a real Rube Goldberg and a real bear to get working properly. But it can be done with a lot of patience and cleaning.

Both my'38's have properly operating automatic ckpkes, but it wasnt easy.

 

To add a manual choke, I have seen a small lever attached to the choke butterfly shaft where the original "cable" attachment and then a manual throttle cable attached to that lever.

The high idle feature on a '38 is separate from the choke mechanism and works independent of the choke.

[Bloo]

The car would benefit from a properly operating choke no matter where you live.

[likeold]

So one concern I have when I cut the fuel line in about the middle of the car under the running board I know I will have some fuel drain out but will it try to empty the whole fuel tank?

[EmTee]

If you have compressed air available you can blow the line back into the tank.  That should stop the siphon.  You may still get a dribble until the line drains, but it shouldn't be much.

[likeold]

Okay good to know , yesterday not thinking I filled the fuel tank, probably best to wait until I get it down to halfway or so, getting 9.5 mpg.

[carbking]

On 12/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, likeold said:

I think the electric fuel pump with a switch is a good start. As the car will start and stall a few times as I pump the gas pedal to get it going, this is only when its cold, she starts right up hot. 

Based on the above quotation, the electric pump will succeed in transferring funds from your account to the account of the selling vendor, nothing else. With a cold engine, a functional choke increases the fuel the carburetor supplies to the engine. The pump does NOT accomplish this. If the pump were faulty, it would not run properly when hot.

 

The engine should perform exactly the same way with the electric pump as it does now, with the exception of it may fire sooner rather than having to crank for several seconds before firing.

 

To prove this, once the engine fires, instead of pumping the footfeed, press it down to rev the engine to maybe 2000 RPM for about 30 seconds. After 30 seconds, start slowing down the engine speed, slowly. Maybe 1700 for a minute, then 1400 for a minute, then 1200 for a minute, etc. After 6~8 minutes of higher RPM, it should idle. This will mimic the action of the fast idle cam, which is not currently functional if the choke is not functional.

 

Did you read the article on 1937~1938 Buick carburetors (and chokes)?

 

Jon.

Edited December 14, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

I must admit I always wanted to try a better carb for my 1937 Special. The car seemed to run fine or I had low expectations at the time. As pointed out by Carb King my BD series Marvel had issues from the begining. Now that the car was wrecked the point is moot.

 I had 2 of the BD-1 Marvels rebuilt. One I believe in 1988, a year after I bought the car. Rebuild cost was around $125. When I fnally got the car back on the road in 2012 I had my spare BD-1 rebuilt at a cost of well over $600. The Phoenix shop (no longer in business) had originally quoted me around $300. I had gulped hard at that price then the over $600 bill! I was not going to abandon it with what I already had in it. Plus to move to something else required linkages to be fabricated, different choke,  different manifold set up, with a different starter vacuum switch etc.

My car has the DELCO Choke. I rebuilt it the same as what Gary Wheeler had done on his Marvel equiped 1937 car.

I have had no issues with the choke as it performs as the DELCO imformation sheet indicates. After all the work Gary had done on his car he then went to a later Carter set up I believe.

[carbking]

Maybe 30 or so years ago, when I was 30 years dumber and thought I could make any carburetor work; I tried to make the Delco choke function with the Stromberg carb. After all, I had the original Stromberg literature, and a bulletin from Delco advocating absolute butchery on the choke. After a total cosmetic restoration of both the choke and the carburetor, first as the choke was produced, then with the suggested butchery; we COULD make the choke sort of function. But we never able to make the choke function for a temperature range that a normal "driver" might see. Yes, it could, with a lot of work, be made to work if the car was never driven in an ambient of below about 40 degrees. The very best was to adjust such that the choke plate would completely open, and then force feed the engine when it was started in cold weather; as the choke plate just wouldn't close below about 40 degrees F.

 

That was when I started reading about Buick requesting both Stromberg, and their new carburetor vendor Carter to offer replacement carburetors for the 1937 and 1938 Buicks. These carbs were sold through Buick dealerships beginning in 1939.

 

If Buick didn't think the choke was functional in 1939 and needed to be replaced, I saw absolutely zero reason for me to disagree with Buick.

 

Jon

[Bloo]

If you are going to put an electric pump on, put it as far back toward the tank as possible.

 

 

On 12/12/2021 at 12:35 PM, likeold said:

I think the electric fuel pump with a switch is a good start. As the car will start and stall a few times as I pump the gas pedal to get it going, this is only when its cold, she starts right up hot.

 

No, that won't help. It helps when the car sat for a couple days or more and the gas evaporated out of the carburetor, and the fuel pump has to refill the carburetor bowl before the engine can start. That is quite a different situation than "cold".

 

For the car to start easy and run good cold, you need a properly working choke, period.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[likeold]

I guess I need to reiterate my situation. I have taken the car out the last 2 days It's been about 40° here but more like 60° in my barn . The car starts right up since it's only been sitting for about 24 hours, I let it fast idle for about a minute and then reduce the RPM and let it warm up another five or six minutes then off we go and it runs fine. Once hot after driving, I shut her off get a coffee and when I come back she starts in a second. The time I noticed it's hard to start is when it's been sitting for a week or so and it seems to be starving for gas. I received my pump today and I hope to get it in this week but I really won't know if it's a fix until next spring after the car has been sitting for 4 months not started.

[EmTee]

Translation: The electric pump's primary function will be to refill the fuel bowl when the so-called "gasoline" has evaporated over several days of dormancy.

 

Correct?

[Bloo]

Yes. Some also use it to force gas forward in cases of vapor lock. You can in theory push fuel through the fuel line and mechanical pump all the way to the carb, at least if there is liquid fuel at the inlet of the electric pump. That is the reason for getting the pump back as far as possible. Gas can boil in the line under the car from the heat radiated from the pavement.

[Brian_Heil]

Food for thought on fuel boost pumps to aid starting. 
 

I don’t set the choke until I see full pressure on the oil pressure gauge while cranking cold then I set the choke and let it start now that I have oil where it needs to be.  No need for a booster pump, the mechanical pump has plenty of time to prime the system. 
 

A carryover from my old hotrod days when we had an ignition kill switch, it was the last thing we flipped on after we had oil pressure. 
 

Don’t be in such a hurry to start your engine. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[likeold]

I don't like to crank and crank and my starter will not stay engaged for long runs. 

[Jim Nelson]

Well, opinions are something every one has one..   Most of us have old cars that are NOT in the best of tune.   Most of us need the effect of a fuel boost pump (mounted close to the tank).   Getting them to run is most of the time an effort.    Having a full card of gas is the first problem.   Next -having a battery at full charge (not always the full charge).   Then having a good starter and having a starter  ring gear in good shape..    Now having pionts and plugs in good shape should - most of the time result in a good start.   MOST OF US,  know that dosent always happen.   The electric boost pump is a critical part to get you ready for the start.    Being able to crank the engine over without running out of power from the battery is so important.    All this opinion's of this should be doing normal starting  is somewhat 'hope'.   I've been there and found that all these things are necessary for successful starting.    Things break and things wear out so it is not going to be like a 20000 mile - newer Pre-war Buick.    Failure on the road can be expensive so anything I can do to let me drive to my destination and home is great.    We don't buy things just for the fun.   these items contribute to good running pre-war Buicks.   JMHO  and I'm sticking to it...

[Jim Nelson]

Our 6 volt starting systems do not like running the starter until o.p. etc. come up.      Most of us will have batteries -dead - from trying that.   I put trickle chargers on my batteries when I'm not running my cars.    I just had a trickle charger quit causing my battery to die.   That cost me $125.00 and a not to much fun replacing my battery on my 38-46s.    That was no fun for a 78 year old guy trying to lift and move around it.    My '35' can change batteries much easier as they are under the floor under the seat.   So much easier.....

[EmTee]

As I said above, I run the electric pump on my '38 for a few seconds before attempting to start for the first time after sitting overnight or several days.  That is to just ensure that the float bowl is full.  I haven't driven my car enough in really hot weather yet to test its effectiveness against vapor-lock.