1953 Pontiac Chieftain project

[john hess]

I fixed mine.. still gets vapor locked... I think due to ethanol fuel.. I will be installing a 6v pusher pump at fuel tank on a switch for priming..

[Andy J]

Bloo is dead on about freeing the heat riser.Mine was frozen up on my Pontiac 8 manifold and I did exactly what he described.Keep spraying that Mopar Rust penetrant on it and lightly tap the shaft.It took me a week or more,but it finally broke loose.

[Bloo]

On 5/19/2022 at 5:41 AM, NightTrain said:

I just left mine open.  Problem is that it may cause vapor lock. Curious to know what others think.

When it works, it's open when hot so it shouldn't make any difference. Some guys take the plate out and I think that's a bad idea, because more heat will get up in the chamber around the carburetor without the plate. In my opinion it will run better overall once the heat riser works. My 36 Master SIx sure did. Every carbureted (or TBI) car even remotely modern, like from the 1920s onward, has a hotspot under the carburetor. It isn't always exhaust heat, sometimes coolant, but it's always there. Some 1920s versions need modification because there is way too much heat due to the poor quality of 1920s gas. From the mid 30s on, most of them work fine as designed.

 

 

On 5/18/2022 at 7:48 PM, MyhreMade said:

I’ve been working on the car. I’m working on rebuilding the fuel pump. Picked up an inexpensive ultrasonic cleaner and was surprised how well it worked cleaning up the parts. My rebuild kit diaphrams don’t match what I have in my fuel pump. Maybe I ordered the wrong kit. 

That can be a problem. The outfit I ordered my kit from (Then n Now) wouldn't even send anything until he had the stamped numbers off of the pump. I'm really happy with how it turned out. Since we are discussing vapor lock, and you have your fuel pump apart, you have an opportunity to check some things. Vapor lock is poorly defined, as there are a whole raft of reasons a carbureted car might not work in hot weather. One of the most common is fuel boiling in the fuel line under the car due to radiated heat from the pavement. In the old days it was an unwritten rule that you NEVER change a working check valve in a fuel pump because the new ones might not seal well. Well, today you probably have to change them if they have any rubber-like parts due to the ethanol. Check them. Rig up some stack of part of the parts, or a rubber boot, or whatever you have to do to suck on them with a vacuum pump (like a mityvac). Make damn sure those valves both seal, and if they don't, do whatever is necessary to get them to seal. They might not hold vacuum forever, but they should hold for a little bit. How effective the pump is at priming itself matters a lot in hot weather. If the pump needs to be wet with fuel to work, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

Pinholes in the gas line going to the back of the car can cause all sorts of headaches for the same reasons. If you can plug one end of the line and suck on it with a mityvac to make sure it doesn't bleed down, that would be a good thing. If there are any rubber hoses, replace them, preferably with 30r9 fuel injection hose. It's expensive but it is highly ethanol-resistant, and since it has a liner, it is not prone to getting pinholes as it ages like the old hose for carbureted cars was. If you have the gas tank out, check the fuel pickup tube for cracks/holes too. I'd put on a sock filter too if it doesn't have one.

 

Another thing I checked when I had my fuel pump apart was fuel pump stroke, because I wanted to know. Some cars will wear the fuel pump lobe off of the camshaft and then have mysterious fuel delivery problems. I partly assembled the lower body, pump arm, diaphragm, etc and bolted it to the engine. Then I cranked the engine to see how much diaphragm movement I had. Sometimes you can find a spec for this, sometimes not, but I had about 1/4" which looks fine for my little pump, so no problem. If you check this while the pump is apart, then you know it is ok if you have fuel delivery problems later.

 

On 5/19/2022 at 6:19 AM, john hess said:

I fixed mine.. still gets vapor locked... I think due to ethanol fuel.. I will be installing a 6v pusher pump at fuel tank on a switch for priming..

IMHO that is the way to set up an electric pump if you are going to have one. I haven't had to, as my 36 has been working fine even in 106F. Admittedly it does run a little flaky when it gets that hot, probably due to the accelerator pump in the carburetor boiling dry. It never stops running. I drove carbureted cars for most of my life, and there may be little things I do without even recognizing it to stay out of trouble. For instance, I probably wouldn't shut it off for 2-5 minutes in weather like that and try to restart it. It might be fine, but that is really pushing your luck. When starting in really hot weather I would rev the engine up a little to make sure the pump is primed and has filled the fuel bowl. I have quite a bit of confidence in the pump, but better safe than sorry.

 

I admit it would be nice to have a button to push at the beginning of the season to fill the carburetor. I drive it pretty much daily except in winter, so I don't usually have an empty carburetor when starting the car.

 

If you do it, put the pump as far back as you can toward the tank. It is way easier for the electric pump to get a prime when it doesn't have to deal with gas is boiling in the line under the car.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[NightTrain]

2 hours ago, Bloo said:

When it works, it's open when hot so it shouldn't make any difference. Some guys take the plate out and I think that's a bad idea, because more heat will get up in the chamber around the carburetor without the plate. In my opinion it will run better overall once the heat riser works. My 36 Master SIx sure did. Every carbureted (or TBI) car even remotely modern, like from the 1920s onward, has a hotspot under the carburetor. It isn't always exhaust heat, sometimes coolant, but it's always there. Some 1920s versions need modification because there is way too much heat due to the poor quality of 1920s gas. From the mid 30s on, most of them work fine as designed.

 

 

That can be a problem. The outfit I ordered my kit from (Then n Now) wouldn't even send anything until he had the stamped numbers off of the pump. I'm really happy with how it turned out. Since we are discussing vapor lock, and you have your fuel pump apart, you have an opportunity to check some things. Vapor lock is poorly defined, as there are a whole raft of reasons a carbureted car might not work in hot weather. One of the most common is fuel boiling in the fuel line under the car due to radiated heat from the pavement. In the old days it was an unwritten rule that you NEVER change a working check valve in a fuel pump because the new ones might not seal well. Well, today you probably have to change them if they have any rubber-like parts due to the ethanol. Check them. Rig up some stack of part of the parts, or a rubber boot, or whatever you have to do to suck on them with a vacuum pump (like a mityvac). Make damn sure those valves both seal, and if they don't, do whatever is necessary to get them to seal. They might not hold vacuum forever, but they should hold for a little bit. How effective the pump is at priming itself matters a lot in hot weather. If the pump needs to be wet with fuel to work, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

Pinholes in the gas line going to the back of the car can cause all sorts of headaches for the same reasons. If you can plug one end of the line and suck on it with a mityvac to make sure it doesn't bleed down, that would be a good thing. If there are any rubber hoses, replace them, preferably with 30r9 fuel injection hose. It's expensive but it is highly ethanol-resistant, and since it has a liner, it is not prone to getting pinholes as it ages like the old hose for cafrbureted cars was. If you have the gas tank out, check the fuel pickup tube for cracks/holes too. I'd put on a sock filter too if it doesn't have one.

 

Another thing I checked when I had my fuel pump apart was fuel pump stroke, because I wanted to know. Some cars will wear the fuel pump lobe off of the camshaft and then have mysterious fuel delivery problems. I partly assembled the lower body, pump arm, diaphragm, etc and bolted it to the engine. Then I cranked the engine to see how much diaphragm movement I had. Sometimes you can find a spec for this, sometimes not, but I had about 1/4" which looks fine for my little pump, so no problem. If you check this while the pump is apart, then you know it is ok if you have fuel delivery problems later.

 

IMHO that is the way to set up an electric pump if you are going to have one. I haven't had to, as my 36 has been working fine even in 106F. Admittedly it does run a little flaky when it gets that hot, probably due to the accelerator pump in the carburetor boiling dry. It never stops running. I drove carbureted cars for most of my life, and there may be little things I do without even recognizing it to stay out of trouble. For instance, I probably wouldn't shut it off for 2-5 minutes in weather like that and try to restart it. It might be fine, but that is really pushing your luck. When starting in really hot weather I would rev the engine up a little to make sure the pump is primed and has filled the fuel bowl. I have quite a bit of confidence in the pump, but better safe than sorry.

 

I admit it would be nice to have a button to push at the beginning of the season to fill the carburetor. I drive it pretty much daily except in winter, so I don't usually have an empty carburetor when starting the car.

 

If you do it, put the pump as far back as you can toward the tank. It is way easier for the electric pump to get a prime when it doesn't have to deal with gas is boiling in the line under the car.

 

 

10 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

This is great info thanks. I will order some of the penetrating oil and see if that helps. I do have an acetylene torch.

I also converted to a 6v electric pump, like $40 bucks.  Never even thought about location other than the engine bay.  Great advice on pump location, as well as associated points.

[Rusty Heaps]

Knock it out and throw it away if you don’t plan to drive in the winter.

[MyhreMade]

Used some of the mopar heat riser spray and added a little heat. Got the heat riser loose and moves freely now. Anyone know where I can get the spring? Looks like mine is missing. 

[Bloo]

I always try @Kornkurt here on the forum for flathead Pontiac NOS stuff. California Pontiac (pontiacparts.net) is another good source. If you can't get the right one, try one for a Buick (bobsautomobilia.com) or an old stovebolt Chevrolet (fillingstation.com).

 

Put it in the slot so that as you wind it and hook it on the pin, it moves the weight to the top. I would shoot for about a 3/4 turn windup at first. SInce it goes in a slot, you have two options for how to put it, and still have the spring pulling in the correct direction. There is also the option of a whole extra turn of windup if the new spring has a lot of coils. If it is fairly tight when it is cold out, or shut but not that tight at room temeperature, you are on the right track. When the coolant gets to normal temperature, the heat riser should be wide open. If you can get it to do that it will probably be fine even with the wrong thermostatic spring. The weight falls down almost 90 degrees from the closed position, and on most inline engines, it falls toward the block.

 

Some, maybe most heat risers also have an anti-rattle spring. It's just for noise, not thermostatic and not for function. You'll probably need a shop manual (or maybe a parts manual) to figure out how that one goes on if you care. In the absence of real Pontiac parts, a reproduction Buick one might work if it happens to hook up the same way. Otherwise, maybe something from Ace Hardware.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Summershandy]

11 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

Anyone know where I can get the spring?

 

I picked up my replacement from California Pontiac.

 

 

[r1lark]

16 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

Used some of the mopar heat riser spray and added a little heat. Got the heat riser loose and moves freely now. Anyone know where I can get the spring? Looks like mine is missing. 

Do the Mopar dealers carry this? Tried to get some several years ago and the parts department guy looked at me with a blank stare........

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, r1lark said:

Do the Mopar dealers carry this? Tried to get some several years ago and the parts department guy looked at me with a blank stare........

 

I mean, you've got the current Mopar part number now.... If they can't figure that out you might need to try a different dealership. 🤪

 

On a more serious note, I would imagine the techs in the service department would demand it if they were aware of it's existence. It's the best penetrating oil ever. The dealership I worked at in the 90s carried it, but they had strong connections to the past. They still knew it as heat riser solvent in the parts department. I was buying it at some newly minted dealership later on in the 2000s where they had probably never had a slant six through the doors of the service department. I asked the guy at the counter for "Mopar Rust Penetrant" and he walked back and got some. My last few cans came from Amazon, so I have no idea if I could still walk into a dealership and buy it. I'll bet I could.

 

[MyhreMade]

I picked the spray up from Amazon. Just ordered the spring from California Pontiac parts today also. Should hopefully have it in a few days. Hoping to get some work done on the car over the weekend.

[r1lark]

2 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

I picked the spray up from Amazon. Just ordered the spring from California Pontiac parts today also. Should hopefully have it in a few days. Hoping to get some work done on the car over the weekend.

Ok, thanks, Amazon is easy. Got to order some other stuff too.

[MyhreMade]

I’m wondering if someone can help me with where this lower spring attaches? I didn’t take a good picture and not sure where it should attach to the linkage. I’m not sure if where I have it is correct. 

[NightTrain]

19 minutes ago, MyhreMade said:

I’m wondering if someone can help me with where this lower spring attaches? I didn’t take a good picture and not sure where it should attach to the linkage. I’m not sure if where I have it is correct. 

Not sure this helps mine didn’t even have a spring.

[The 55er]

Night Train's location is correct, my spring is attached to that exact same post. 

[MyhreMade]

I’m trying to see in the picture where it’s attached. This is the lower spring I’m trying to figure out.

[NightTrain]

1 minute ago, MyhreMade said:

I’m trying to see in the picture where it’s attached. This is the lower spring I’m trying to figure out.

Yeah, thats what I thought.  Per my mention, I dont even have a spring on the lower side, so I would be curious about an answer as well.

[Summershandy]

[The 55er]

Here's the lower spring UNDER the starter..........

[MyhreMade]

17 minutes ago, The 55er said:

Here's the lower spring UNDER the starter..........

Perfect! Thanks. That’s what I was looking for.

[Summershandy]

18 minutes ago, The 55er said:

Here's the lower spring UNDER the starter..........

Thanks for the nudge 55er! Crawled underneath mine and I'm missing that spring hence the spring confusion. Guess it's not that critical?

[MyhreMade]

Got the spring I was missing for the heat riser installed. 

found a few of these older style hose clamps on eBay to replace this newer styler that was on the car.

I found out the battery tray from an older model chieftain does not fit the 53. There is a hole that is missing on the older bracket. I kind of beat my original ones up trying to get them off. Didn’t think I was going to use them. I ended up having to put it in the press to get the bend out.also finished putting back together the fuel pump.

[MyhreMade]

Cleaned up the distributor and installed a Petronix ignition kit. 

[Bloo]

It is important that the vacuum diaphragm does not leak, that the weights and springs are not sticking, and that the ground wire from the breaker plate to the distributor housing is present.

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[NightTrain]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:31 AM, Bloo said:

It is important that the vacuum diaphragm does not leak, that the weights and springs are not sticking, and that the ground wire from the breaker plate to the distributor housing is present.

 

vacuum leaks are real issues, couldnt agree more.  Great tips!!

[Bloo]

And if that diaphragm leaks, the timing wont advance at part throttle. If the weight and springs don't work... the timing doesn't advance with rpm. I think a lot of "failure to proceed" problems with Pertronix are because people did not look to see that the ground wire was intact. The Pertronix uses it to fire the coil just like the points did.

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[NightTrain]

5 hours ago, Bloo said:

And if that diaphragm leaks, the timing wont advance at part throttle. If the weight and springs don't work... the timing doesn't advance with rpm. I think a lot of "failure to proceed" problems with Pertronix are because people did not look to see that the ground wire was intact. The Pertronix uses it to fire the coil just like the points did.

 

I used the old school ignition system with new points, had a diaphragm leak, fixed it and now she runs like a sewing machine.  The other thing I would “tune” is the valve lash.  That is a bitch.  Once you get her close, go back in and adjust.  You wouldn’t think you could hone it in more, but you can, time the old gal, and your off.
 

 

 

 

 

 

[NightTrain]

Just now, NightTrain said:

I used the old school ignition system with new points, had a diaphragm leak, fixed it and now she runs like a sewing machine.  The other thing I would “tune” is the valve lash.  That is a bitch.  Once you get her close, go back in and adjust.  You wouldn’t think you could hone it in more, but you can, time the old gal, and your off.
 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, when you get to the carb, thats a lot of fun too, let me know…got some tips.

[MyhreMade]

17 minutes ago, NightTrain said:

Also, when you get to the carb, thats a lot of fun too, let me know…got some tips.

Thanks everyone for the tips. I’ll definitely be checking all of those things. I had the carburetor rebuilt by national carburetor in FL. Cost about as much as a rebuild kit and this way I know it’s done correctly. 

[NightTrain]

10 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

Thanks everyone for the tips. I’ll definitely be checking all of those things. I had the carburetor rebuilt by national carburetor in FL. Cost about as much as a rebuild kit and this way I know it’s done correctly. 

Oh, thats a real good idea.  By chance, do you know if the accelerator pump was rubber or leather?  She is tuned now, but if I have issues, I might copy what you did.

[MyhreMade]

I’m hoping to put the new exhaust on soon. Anyone know if one of these gaskets is for the exhaust? The two grey ones appear to be the same size.

[r1lark]

The gasket on the top left definitely is not an exhaust gasket - it's made of cork. May be for the glass sediment bowl on a fuel pump.

[Bloo]

Or maybe new cork for a Pontiac face-type front crankshaft seal.

 

The other two don't look like exhaust to me either, but I'm not too sure. Do you have pictures of the flanges they would go against?

 

[MyhreMade]

Yeah I think the cork one is for the fuel pump glass bowl. 

[john hess]

I had issues with sealing my new exhaust... the original downpipe has a flat surface to seal against the exhaust manifold.. the new stainless pipe has a tapered end and was slightly smaller diameter. cut a small sleeve and welded to end of downpipe....  

Here is a picture of original pipe and flat metallic type gasket.... also is a sleeve like I welded into the stainless pipe... the part # is a napa # of the gasket i used on the tapered pipe..(not shown). 

[john hess]

what does the end of your new pipe look like ?

[NightTrain]

10 hours ago, MyhreMade said:

I’m hoping to put the new exhaust on soon. Anyone know if one of these gaskets is for the exhaust? The two grey ones appear to be the same size.

Agree on the fuel bowl, but the other gaskets are not heat resistant like the one shown by John.  You should have a similar metallic mendable heat resistant gasket.  Also, remember the “felt” material is for fluid…either oil or antifreeze.  Keep in mind, if you bought a gasket set, they are universal for all Pontiac L8’s and you wont use all of the gaskets due to model changes. My 53’ had a few left, and if you want I can snap a pic of the remaining gaskets I had from my kit.

[Summershandy]

11 hours ago, Bloo said:

Or maybe new cork for a Pontiac face-type front crankshaft seal.

Definitely for the crankshaft. I changed mine and recognize the notches on the outside. 

 

 

[NightTrain]

3 hours ago, Summershandy said:

Definitely for the crankshaft. I changed mine and recognize the notches on the outside. 

 

 

Right on!!!

[MyhreMade]

Does anyone have a good source for factory style cloth wire? I know I can order a whole harness but for now I just want to fix up some of these wires and connections. Would like to use similar wires like factory.