Mystery Coup (?) even SVVS & Hershey Experts could not identify

[vhprs]

Perhaps a Hot Rod made early 1900's...maybe a one off...maybe some weird coalition of parts assembled ...Hershey experts had no idea.....British SVVS said probably American........Anyone out there with more knowledge ?   If a coalition...at least the chassis might have an attribution.  Not original engine so that complicates it.

[dustycrusty]

PROBABLY not an authentic early automobile. It looks like someone's idea of what a "Horseless Carriage" should look like, circa 1955. It appears to be made out of an eclectic assortment of early chassis bits & bobs, a carriage body, some plywood, sheet metal and a vivid imagination!

 

I'm guessing the "Non-original" engine under that poorly proportioned hood and faux radiator is a mid-1950's Briggs & Stratton or Tecumseh air-cooled single cylinder?

 

Stripped down and rebuilt, it would be a neat little attention grabbing butt-buggy to haul parts and people around at the swap meets.

 

 

[8E45E]

My Mother The Car's Great Aunt, now a little old and wrinkled?

 

Craig

[Guest]

With that expanded steel grill, my vote is for a home/garage/farm built as well.

 

[Matt Harwood]

Early Dr. Fate prototype?

 

[nzcarnerd]

1920s Ford T wheels??

[wayne sheldon]

5 hours ago, vhprs said:

maybe some weird coalition of parts assembled

 

This looks an awful lot like a car that was trotted out with grandiose claims a few years ago. If I recall correctly, it was then claimed to be THE Maxwell prototype! 

It wasn't, and isn't.

A number of good people studied photographs, and some pieces were identified. If this is the same one (I am not certain that it is?), the frame was identified as a circa 1910 Buick 2 cylinder (one of the last Buick 2 cylinders). The body may be an original era piece, or a 1940s/'50s recreation of an early body. Regardless, the body does not fit the chassis.

There is so much wrong with this that it clearly is not a correct era anything. 

I would really be curious just who those Hershey experts were? 

In the early days of our hobby, a lot of fakes were put together using bits and pieces of horse-drawn carriages and loose early car parts mixed with much later model T parts, usually some small industrial or lawn mower motor. It is ironic, and hard to understand today why people would have done that in those days, when the real things were waiting to be found in barns all around the country. But those people simply did not understand. They saw some report of people enjoying real antique automobiles, probably saw a few in local parades. They wanted to join in on the fun. They just didn't understand that the main idea was to preserve our history! So, they went out and picked up a few odd bits and built their own. These things keep showing up. I always wanted a really early experimental car. So I went and looked at quite a few of those things claimed to be "real" "1890-something" or Henry Ford's other prototype (a common reason given for a 1900 carriage with 1920s model T parts on it).

I have seen grown men in tears (LITERALY) after twenty experts told him that great uncle so-n-so's car he built in 1895 had nothing on it older than 1910, and it wasn't even a real thing then.

 

Someone could fix this thing up? They could have a lot of fun with it. But it would never be a historic horseless carriage. Another ironic thing is that arguably, this has been what it is long enough to qualify as a real antique car today! But it STILL isn't a historic horseless carriage.

And there are likely some good early parts in there that someone might need or be able to put to good use restoring a real horseless carriage.

It is what it is.

[dustycrusty]

30 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

This looks an awful lot like a car that was trotted out with grandiose claims a few years ago. If I recall correctly, it was then claimed to be THE Maxwell prototype! 

It wasn't, and isn't.

A number of good people studied photographs, and some pieces were identified. If this is the same one (I am not certain that it is?), the frame was identified as a circa 1910 Buick 2 cylinder (one of the last Buick 2 cylinders). The body may be an original era piece, or a 1940s/'50s recreation of an early body. Regardless, the body does not fit the chassis.

There is so much wrong with this that it clearly is not a correct era anything. 

I would really be curious just who those Hershey experts were? 

In the early days of our hobby, a lot of fakes were put together using bits and pieces of horse-drawn carriages and loose early car parts mixed with much later model T parts, usually some small industrial or lawn mower motor. It is ironic, and hard to understand today why people would have done that in those days, when the real things were waiting to be found in barns all around the country. But those people simply did not understand. They saw some report of people enjoying real antique automobiles, probably saw a few in local parades. They wanted to join in on the fun. They just didn't understand that the main idea was to preserve our history! So, they went out and picked up a few odd bits and built their own. These things keep showing up. I always wanted a really early experimental car. So I went and looked at quite a few of those things claimed to be "real" "1890-something" or Henry Ford's other prototype (a common reason given for a 1900 carriage with 1920s model T parts on it).

I have seen grown men in tears (LITERALY) after twenty experts told him that great uncle so-n-so's car he built in 1895 had nothing on it older than 1910, and it wasn't even a real thing then.

 

Someone could fix this thing up? They could have a lot of fun with it. But it would never be a historic horseless carriage. Another ironic thing is that arguably, this has been what it is long enough to qualify as a real antique car today! But it STILL isn't a historic horseless carriage.

And there are likely some good early parts in there that someone might need or be able to put to good use restoring a real horseless carriage.

It is what it is.

 you nailed it:   https://www.prewarcar.com/235393-maxwell-prototype-1901-advice-welcome-what-is-it

[AURktman]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

This looks an awful lot like a car that was trotted out with grandiose claims a few years ago. If I recall correctly, it was then claimed to be THE Maxwell prototype! 

It wasn't, and isn't.

A number of good people studied photographs, and some pieces were identified. If this is the same one (I am not certain that it is?), the frame was identified as a circa 1910 Buick 2 cylinder (one of the last Buick 2 cylinders). The body may be an original era piece, or a 1940s/'50s recreation of an early body. Regardless, the body does not fit the chassis.

 

 

I think you're spot on about the chassis, a quick Google came up with this.  Even the fenders look nearly the same, just bent up to catch everything in sight.  Chain sprockets are different, but probably someone wanted a lower gear to get it to move up steeper inclines.  

 

[Larry Schramm]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Early Dr. Fate prototype?

 

 

This car in the the Stahl Museum just north of MtClemens, MI

[Ozstatman]

Notice its RHD and has 3 pedals ala Model T?

 

[AURktman]

I don’t think there is any doubt the chassis is a 1910 Buick Model 14 Roadster.

 

https://bransonauction.com/auction-consignments/buick/model-14-roadster/1910-buick-model-14-roadster/

[vhprs]

Gentlemen....thank you...thank you.......I do so appreciate your knowledge and experienced opinions.

I knew it was not a "real" car when bought...but...it intrigued me to know the mix types and things. 

In my limited experience,  the only common KNOWN double chain drives were Metz and IHC but the literature out

there is not expansive there.  I have never had the pleasure of seeing that neat Buick. 

What also bothered me was forward leaf spring mounted UNDER the straight frame which

Metz did ...and the central chain drive which is NOT Metz. (to my knowledge).  I really am enjoying the comments

and opinions and knowledge.   I like to learn.   And in this case...so many elements clash and have re-call to other things...hence neat input does help.   Thanks again......Ken

[AURktman]

You might have enough there to do a 1910 Buick, just my personal direction would be to do that. Honestly I don’t have enough experience or knowledge in the prewar stuff to say that’s a smart direction or not.  

[wayne sheldon]

I am not an expert in the early Buicks. However, I have known several people that did own them over the years. And I have even spent more than a few hours working on brass era Buicks belonging to friends.

Without either a two-cylinder Buick expert, or a known proper car to compare to, it would be difficult to know for sure that there is enough there to begin trying to put one together from this. Based upon past discussions of this car, my questionable memory, and not quite enough good photographs, a couple thoughts.

It looks as though the rear axle, and maybe the hubs, might be from the original Buick, although a bit modified. The wheels themselves, spokes, felloes and rims are 1920s model T Ford adapted onto the other hubs (which again may or may not be original Buick?). The front axle doesn't look like the couple Buicks I have worked on, but it does look similar to the one in the Buick photo posted above by AURktman, and may be correct? As far as wheels go, the hubs are the most important original parts. All the wood can be made by any of several known wheel-rights that make a lot of wheels for antique automobiles. It isn't cheap, but actually not all that expensive either considering the work involved. Outer metal steel and rim parts vary a lot! You would need to check with the Buick crowd to find out if original pieces are generally available or not. Also, some of those parts are made new. Those are expensive. Also, there are acceptable available alternatives, that are generally not very expensive.

It looks like it might even have a good amount of the planetary transmission in there?

 

The biggest problem most likely would be the engine. It isn't shown in these pictures, and I don't remember what it had from the photos a couple years ago. And I believe you said above that it had been changed out at some point? Finding a proper Buick engine for that could be very difficult. However, there are a lot of parts around, and the early Buick crowd tends to be very helpful.

 

The body would likely need to be made new. I do not think that body is from a Buick. There is a fellow near San Diego California that does very nice work, and reasonably priced. There are others around as well. The body isn't all that complicated. Quite a few people build them themselves. Some of them actually come out pretty nice.

 

It would be a major project! One that you would have to work on for several years. It would probably cost more to restore than it would to buy another such car already done and ready to tour with. But the personal satisfaction of restoring a really antique car is incredible! IF (my famous big IF) you can find a proper engine in decent shape for not too many dollars? And if you take the time to learn about that era Buicks, and do much of the work yourself? That could maybe be done without breaking the bank. I have restored several cars over the years myself, and enjoy doing so. There are a lot of worse ways to spend some free time.

[nzcarnerd]

Perhaps rather then trying to resurrect a 'genuine' early car from some of the parts maybe this should remain the way it is as a curiosity - a 'folly' maybe, like the fake ruins that were built in the grounds of English country houses in the 18th and 19th centuries. Any known history or documentation should remain with the car otherwise it will continue to appear on forums like this every few years. Maybe a metal plaque could be attached to it with the relevant information - or something electronic?

[vhprs]

Everyone who has ever worked on our "true" lovely old cars..knows...when something is a Frankenstein..it probably should be left alone...even financially...just not worth it.   You could spend 100s of hours on it..and still only have a fancy Franky at the end.  DustyCrusty and nzcarnerd ...to me...and thinking...have the best attitude.   Fix it up..get it running...tell the truth and just have fun with it.  It looks cute...it is old...some parts older than others.  (heh, heh)....and if you just want an ambiance thing...it works.   You sure are not going to be crazy if someone leans on it...or sits on the running board.  Thank you again gentlemen.  I know more and that was the purpose.  Regards...Ken

[nickelroadster]

Actually this car seems to bear some resemblance to the second car nzcarnerd  posted in Period images on Wednesday.  It is the second car and shows sevral time in the string of pictures that follows.  The cars do have different radiators but both look pretty similar and have double chain drive.  There may be some parts in common here.