odd fuel pump issues (1st gen)

[Wedgewood64]

Hello all,

Replaced the fuel pump a couple of months ago in search of possible cure for my bad case of Riviera Rattle (thread elsewhere). So, maybe with about 200 miles on it, it conks out. Delphi brand. OK, so, I go to change it out and find a) that in fact it was loose; and b) I swear, I can't get the thing out, even with the small alternator bracket support out. Twisting, turning... I even experimented turning the engine to see if that would help (I had started the swap at TDC, since that was what I understood worked best).

So, frustrated I decided maybe things would be all better if I just tightened up the bolts properly. Doing so, I found out that one of the bolts is stripped — or rather, the threads in the timing chain cover are. Well, with the one good bolt I got it tight... and confirmed that the pump was not working.

So, here I am with a pump I swear I can't get out (why??) and a stripped thread in the timing chain cover. What's my best course of action here? BTW, I was following the timing chain cover repop controversy in that other recent thread... so I guess I won't ask for advice about where to get a new one!

Thanks folks, nick

[64Rivvy]

First i would try chasing the threads and get a new bolt and see if that addresses your stripped bolt issue. Be sure to use grease on the tap to catch all shavings.  If that doesn't work it might need to be drilled and tapped.  I'm not sure if that would require removing the cover but I assume yes. 

 

 I will defer to someone who knows more on the fuel pump getting stuck other than i know on some engines you need to turn the crank or bump the ignition to release arm on the fuel pump. Not sure if that applies on nailheads. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by 64Rivvy (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Get something (thin pry bar) behind the head of the bolt and put pressure on the pry bar forcing the bolt out as you turn it.  Once the bolt is out, insert a helicoil into the hole (get the internet for instructions) in the timing cover and you should be back to square one.  The cover is aluminum so you have to be careful when tightening. The threads on a bolt can quickly act as a drill bit. ALWAYS use something on the steel bolt threads when inserting into aluminum. The two metals interact and fuse together if you don't. Same with aluminum bolts into steel. Ever mounted aluminum wheels on iron brake drums with out coating the contact surfaces first? 

[Jim Cannon]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

ALWAYS use something on the steel bolt threads when inserting into aluminum. The two metals interact and fuse together if you don't. Same with aluminum bolts into steel.

 

The "something" is called anti-sieze. It's a grease.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Consider black oxide hardened cap screws into the aluminum when you put it back together. In my experience I have noticed less corrosive action between the dissimilar metals. I also use anti-seize on bolts I think is appropriate for.

In the early 1990's I used black oxide Allen head 1/4-20 screws on my '64 water pump just because it seemed like the belt and suspenders thing to do.

 

On you balky pump, there is a long shot your fuel pump eccentric might be loose. You might try getting a long thin screwdriver along side the pump arm while you jiggle it. A long shot, but if it is the timing chain cover will have to come off to fix that.

 

Bernie

[Wedgewood64]

Thanks to all. As for actually removing the pump, I'm still stumped on that one but I will try a screwdriver.... it's weird, I mean, from past experience getting it out is the easy part.

For the threads, I'm wondering about the Helicoil: Ed, when you say "insert," I assume you mean drill out, thread, then insert. but can one do a good job of that with the timing cover on the engine? or am I really looking at... what I don't want to look at?

nick

[RivNut]

If you have enough room, I think you could do it with the timing cover in place.  Have you watched any videos on how to do it?  Can anyone else chime in with his experience?

[telriv]

At this point I don't know IF I should offer any advice, BUT here goes anyway.  1st. off we are talking about aluminum here NOT steel. Of course ideally you wouldn't want ANY particles falling inside, BUT being aluminum & fairly soft I doubt very much it would lead into a problem.  As long as it's tried to be kept at a minimum.  I would use the tap supplied with the kit.  PUT a bit of grease on the end & the 1st. few threads of the tap to try & catch as much particles as you can.  DON'T do it in one step. Use 3-4-5 steps as nec. What we are trying to do is keep the amount of particles to a minimum. Depending on how "fat" your fingers are you could put a finger behind the opening as well with grease on the end of the finger. Since I've been doing this for 60+ years my fingers & hands have become larger than normal for a person my size. 

MAYBE IF you have a youngster in the household MAYBE he or she would be willing to do it. 

Then put red Loctite on the Helicoil & thread into place. Now you will need to break the end tab of wire off. I would wait at least 24hrs. to let dry throughly. 

Then go in with a pair of skinny needle nose pliers to break off the end.

OR another option is to enlarge the hole for a 3/8ths. bolt. Using the same method using the correct size tap.  Then all that's needed is to enlarge the hole in the fuel pump.  This, to me, is all fairly easy & not very time consuming.  Of course if your car has A/C it will be a little harder to access.

 

Tom T.

[64Rivvy]

Tom T,

 

That's my thought also. Try chasing it first, and if the timing cover hole truly is stripped, just drill to enlarge for a 3/8 bolt and tap. Easier and better/stronger solution than helicoil.  Also I would make sure the larger bolt will fit through the fuel pump mounting hole before drilling the cover as well just to make sure you don't end up with an oh s**t moment. 

[60FlatTop]

Lots of farting around when a new timing chain cover would solve it all. If they weren't available it would be a different story.

[64Rivvy]

Its a whole lot of extra work to replace the timing chain cover, deal with possible leaks etc, if you can simply just chase or drill and tap the hole. That's literally a 10 minute job if it works. I would start there and if it takes more than 30 min, I'm with you 60FlatTop. Just replace the timing cover bc you're starting to waste time that could go towards a definitive fix. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by 64Rivvy (see edit history)

[Wedgewood64]

Thanks everyone. I suspect 64 Rivvy works a good deal faster than I do. Anyway, the whole reason I'm in this mess (admitted not a horrible one) is that I did something I really didn't have to, so... I'm not inclined to go the timing chain cover route, esp. b/c the one I have on there is a good used one that replaced the original. Good, except the bolt hole.

I was assuming that the advantage of the helicoil would be that it's a steel insert and thus the repair would presumably be more durable. Or that one can use the same bolt size? Anyway, I'll do one of the above, tap or helicoil--if only I can get the pump out. Grrr.

[RivNut]

There are only two bolts holding the pump in place.  If you remove the hoses and the one good bolt, you should be able to use the pump itself to help remove the stubborn bolt.  With the pump in one hand, pull on it putting force on the backside of the stubborn bolt. With the other hand use you wrench or socket to slowly turn the bolt counterclockwise and back it out.  You might even remove the alternator to give you some more room. Can you tell where the eccentric on the cam gear is? Is it in the position where it's  putting pressure on the fuel pump arm? If so, bump the engine a couple of times to reduce the pressure. 

[Wedgewood64]

Hi Ed, thanks, I think I wasn't clear, in that the pump's not coming out isn't because of the bolt, which removes just fine. it's in the arm/cam somewhere. And I'm all the more perplexed in that I did bump the engine 360 degrees to find a position where it would come out, but no dice. But it's probably one of those things where I'll go out there next time and it will fall right out... otherwise, I may need to take off some of those brackets, after trying to prod around with a screwdriver... nick

[RivNut]

Hmmm.  Don't know much else to suggest.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I suggest you remove the timing chain cover. That fuel pump being stuck in itself would be reason enough but the fact that one of the mounting holes is stripped is even more reason to do so. You will be able to do a better job of fixing that stripped hole with the cover removed.You don’t want to cause further damage by trying to force that pump off. Something isn’t right and the only way to get to the bottom of it is to put the work in and remove that cover.You can also check the timing chain and gears while you’re at it. 

[Wedgewood64]

Back on this. Taking it one step at a time, I removed the alternator/brackets. this let me remove the pump. I've tried to show in the photos how much the pump arm was bent, compared to the replacement I just purchased. in the side-to-side, the old one's the one on the right; in the over/under, it's the one on top. You can see the stress fractures in the arm. the side-to-side one shows that  the old one's arm bends now to the right, while the old one slants left. the other photo (kind of) shows how the bends are now radically different...

Now, I assume somehow on installation of the now old pump I didn't position the arm correctly on the cam. It held for about 200 miles, then was bent to the point it wouldn't pump. BUT how does it fit in more than one way?

I haven't tackled the thread issue yet, but I did notice that the mounting hole is threaded right through the mounting flange in the front cover, meaning that one possibility is simply fitting a slightly smaller bolt and putting a nut on it. At any rate, I wouldn't think that shavings from the threading could be a problem b/c of the fact that the hole doesn't go through into the interior of the cover as I had thought.

[gungeey]

maybe the bolt with the buggered threads allowed the pump to cock to a degree that it angled enough to bend the arm.

 

with the pump and a/c/alt bracket removed you can helicoil the stripped threads as there is enough room to work.

 

I would invest in a new original rebuildable type pump, do you want to go thru this hassle again? as these newer pumps are crap. 

 

 

[Wedgewood64]

ah, makes sense. Didn't seem terribly loose, but that must be it.

I am working on the helicoil and thinking about an original pump. Gotta say that the previous pump--the one I replaced thinking it might be behind the rattle--was still working fine after about 20 years.

[60FlatTop]

I have a Heli-coil repaired timing chain cover hanging on the wall for an emergency.

 

It was just a couple of water pump 1/4-20's and I have been able to seal up some with broken bolts by using Leak Lock : https://www.amazon.com/Highside-Chemicals-10004-Brush-Top-Plastic/dp/B00009W5HX

Just let it sit overnight before adding coolant.

 

I would never sell my spare cover. But I would probably never use it either, although it would be fine. I would get a new one somewhere or a good used one. It's just my Murphy's Law thing.

 

[telriv]

Bernie,

 

    Not to burst your bubble BUT that T/C cover is really N/G. Too much erosion on the back where the impeller goes & on the bottom is pretty much eaten by the erosion.

[60FlatTop]

I was giving an example of how they could be Heli-coiled. I certainly would not have growled and thrown it in the aluminum pile. It hangs on the wall in case of the extreme emergency. I am sure there are a lot of eroded ones being driven without showing problems. It is the guy who keeps pushing the car to its limits that would have a problem. My cars rarely see more than 3500 RPM and 0-60 times are 10 seconds or more. I just drive in a manner that doesn't demand every part operating at its extreme level.

[telriv]

Sorry Bernie something got lost in the tarnslation OR I may have mis-read it.