1919 Commerce Log Truck Project, American Locomotive Company Trailer, Continental Engine

[CliffordK]

Ok, this will be a long project, and just starting out. 

 

I could use some help with dating the truck.  I had settled on 1913, but now I'm questioning if it might be somewhat newer.  Early 20's?  (see next post).  But, it could also be a 1913, and could have been updated over the years of use.

 

I will have some questions, and will need some advice.

 

There are some spectacular builds that I'm seeing here.  My goal is to take this back to more or less the condition when it was parked a century ago, not necessarily back to factory specs.

 

So, for example, if the cab was cut short 100 years ago (apparently common for log trucks), there is no need to reconstruct it back taller.  Some rivets were replaced with screws and bolts, and it doesn't harm the truck.  The front running board bracket (both sides) had been hand made by a blacksmith years ago, and will be kept.  And, of course, original casting marks visible on the radiator tank (just right and left of the name).  And casting marks on the block.

 

I can tell that the trailer wheels were rebuilt at some time, originally 14 spoke, they came to me with 12 spokes (almost all missing).  I have no trailer rims/tires, and don't know if they were originally solid and rebuilt to solid or pneumatic.  Note, original 7 holes, redrilled to 6 holes (where the current bolts are).

 

I have 3 out of 6 rims and tires.  Size is 24x4.5 for rims, and 24(36)x6 for the tires, with tires rated at 2500 lbs.  Rims are technically demountable, but I think they are trued with a wedge when mounting, and likely left on the truck as much as possible.  3 piece lock ring split rims with the rim being one piece, split middle ring, and solid ring for inner ring.

Continental Monobloc engine.  What looks like it should be the head is simply a casting line.  Cast iron upper, aluminum lower, and steel pan.

 

 

 

I was told this was used as a log truck and trailer.  But, unfortunately the bunks, cheese blocks, and the stinger are all missing (trailer brackets for the stinger are there).

 

Edit:

With some help from other users on the board, I think we've narrowed the year down to 1919.  👍

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by CliffordK (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Well........that is just plain COOL! 👍👍👍

[CliffordK]

Ok, dating the truck.

 

Here is the Chassis Data Plate. 

 

Body Weight, 1000 lbs

Normal Load Capacity, 3000 lbs

Maximum Load Capacity 4000 lbs

Serial: 30xxx

 

 

As far as I can tell, for the trailer, American Locomotive Company stopped making trucks in 1913, although, perhaps they made components longer, or the trailer could be older than the rest of the truck, or it could have even been made from non-truck parts.

 

The Torbensen Rear Axle is dated PAT July 14, 1908; July 16, 1912.

I am having troubles finding this exact model of Continental Engine.  The engine data plate is marked Date: 3 ¾.  I presume that either 191 (1913 ¾) OR 192 (1923 ¾) was printed before that, but is no longer readable.

 

I've now removed the Bosch magneto: Model: ZU4, SN: 3330365

ZU4 puts it 1911 to 1936.  However, the chart I'm seeing only dates serial number sup to 1915 at 1798093 which would seem to indicate that my magneto is substantially newer.

 

The engine is hand crank start.  There is a cover plate for a starter, as well as a ring gear, but there doesn't seem to have been a starter used. 

 

There appears to be a 6V generator installed between the water pump and the magneto.

 

Looking at vintage photos, the rounded cup style of headlight may date it to the 20's.

 

Anyway, I could use some advice or suggestions on the actual date.

Edited September 4, 2020 by CliffordK (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Best guess on the truck is 1916-1917, or a war department unit from 1918-1920. More background information please. Also engine builder, cid, ho, ect. More photos! Thanks.

 

PS- The Historical Military Vehicles Website in the UK has a fantastic bunch of guys in the WW1 section........they will ID the truck for you fast........

Edited September 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[CliffordK]

24 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Best guess on the truck is 1916-1917, or a war department unit from 1918-1920. More background information please. Also engine builder, cid, ho, ect. More photos! Thanks.

 

PS- The Historical Military Vehicles Website in the UK has a fantastic bunch of guys in the WW1 section........they will ID the truck for you fast........

The engine is a Continental Monobloc (upper cylinder/head unit + lower aluminum + steel pan).

 

I added more photos of data plates a few minutes ago.  Let me know what you need a picture of before I tear it apart too much (or as I tear it down).  

 

The rear end is unique, but doesn't photograph well.  It has a solid axle to the middle of the hub, and middle of the springs.  The differential and drive axle fits behind that main axle.  I presume that I'll find a ring and pinion in the middle of the rear hubs.  External band brakes (only on the two rear wheels, no front brakes, no trailer brakes).

 

As far as history.

The truck is an Oregon, USA truck, from near Fern Ridge (Eugene), Oregon.

The original owner apparently bought it new at about age 9, and drove it for perhaps 10 years before parking it. 

Sometime about 10 years ago, a "scrapper" was hired to do cleanup of the estate, but saved the truck, and facilitated the sale to another logger near Dallas, Oregon, where it set for another decade or so.

 

The guy I bought it from seemed to indicate that the original owner was still alive at the time, so the timeline is probably off a bit (if one puts the age at the late 90's).

 

You mention WWI.  However, everything on the truck except the magneto appears to be from the USA, and of course worked in the USA.  Oregon was logging country during that era.  Primarily Douglas Fir, along with some pines and Western Red Cedar.

Edited September 4, 2020 by CliffordK (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Interesting the Bosch mag is marked Germany as American Bosch in Springfield Mass was making them in the US then. (It's my home town.) While I have never heard of the truck, it's likely an assembeled machine. A company who bought most everything and assembled them like hundreds of other manufacturers. Looks too small to be a log hauler.....but then again the logging company would have had many different size support trucks. It will be quite a challenge to get it back on the road, but not impossible. Visit the UK site......see what they start with over there......you will think you have a "almost finished" truck compared to some of them. Please keep posting any additional info as you find it........sometimes months or years go by, and then you will have someone reach out to you. Best, Ed

 

PS- The WW1 referance is to the fact that many companies stopped building cars during the war........as the governments in the US and all over Europe would pay top dollar for anything they could lay their hands on......so its possible the WW1 guys have info on the truck brand.

[edinmass]

And we have a winner...........Looks to be a 1921-1923..............

 

 

Built in Detroit Michigan, then Lima Ohio.

 

The first Commerce was a 1/2-ton panel delivery powered by a 4-cylinder L-head engine of 16.9 hp with right-hand steering and single chain final drive. For 1913 steering was changed to left-hand, and the engine was a 4-cylinder Northway, in 1914, 800 of these delivery trucks, also made in open express and canopy form, were made with the first three years' production. Capacity went up to 3/4-ton in 1914 and a 1-tonner was added for 1917. This had the same engine as the smaller model, but final drive was by internal gears in place of the 3/4-tonner's bevel drive. By 1922 Continental engines were used, in trucks from 3/4 to 2 1/2 tons, and a 10-passenger charabanc which was an elongated touring car with a fixed top. Claimed to be 'the wonder of motordom' it cost $2350 and could travel at 40 mph easily. Force-feed lubrication and worm drive came on all the 1924 models, and for 1925 four bus chassis from 18 to 28 passengers joined the range, together with a powermatic special lumber truck, dump truck, oil truck and funeral car.

For 1926 Commerce trucks underwent major changes in specifications and styling. 6-cylinder engines, still Continentals, were featured, with 3-speed transmission in place of 4, and semi-floating spiral bevel rear axle. Early in 1927 Relay Motors of Wabash, Indiana bought Commerce and moved truck manufacture into the plant of Service Motors which it had also bought, and later into the plant of another purchase, Garford Truck Co of Lima, Ohio. Under Relay management Commerce trucks were re-engineered again, returning to worm drive. They were now basically the same as the new Relay trucks in eight models from 1 to 4 tons, using 6-cylinder Buda engines, 4-wheel hydraulic brakes and the same sheet metal. Com­merce, Garford and Service trucks were now identical ex­cept for the nameplates. Of the four makes in the Relay group Commerce fared the worst, with only 65 trucks re­gistered for 1928, and a microscopic 16 for 1929. At the bottom of the Depression Relay was forced into receiver­ship, resulting in the suspension of Commerce and Service production, though they continued Relay and Garford for a little longer. 

 

[F&J]

I was still typing when Ed just posted that document, but I will post it as is anyways:

 

There is just one sales drawing of a 1925 2.5 ton in the Truck Spotters guide, overall styling and wheels look the same, but that has no bearing on dating yours.

 

The Continental tag is misleading you.  That is not a date, it is the bore in my opinion... as I had a 1916 GMC  with Continental 4 headless with the bore marked on the tag.  That was 40 years ago, and I once did find out when they went to a true cylinder head, but now forgotten.

 

Fork headlights can't help much in guessing the age either, early would be gas, but forks were also still used on early trucks when electrics came along.

 

ATHS might have ID info on the truck brand as well as Continental engines.

 

BTW, anything is possible, but I doubt a 9 year old could afford or get gifted enough for a WW1 era heavy truck, as they were typically in the $5000 range more or less without a rear body...and a Ford T car was 1/10th of that.

 

I agree with Ed when he said too light duty for logging, especially in the PNW where they were harvesting first growth huge trees.  I, (as well as I'd bet Ed) are not disagreeing that it was not used for logs, but I'd think it was repurposed for logs from a used truck at some point in history.  Solid tires were pretty much used exclusively in those severe PNW conditions, and loads.

[CliffordK]

Thanks for the notes.  I think I found that Commerce page earlier, although I'm not sure I'd trust the precise details as models seemed to be changing quickly.

 

The 3 ¾ does sound like it could be an engine bore.  But, unfortunately that leaves one without an engine date.

 

There is a book:

This Was Trucking

A Pictorial History of the First Quarter Century of Commercial Motor Vehicles

Robert F. Karolevitz

 

Most of the log trucks in the photos do show solid wheels, and somewhat more substantial trucks.  But, keep in mind that half the load would have been on the truck, and half the load on the trailer. 

 

There certainly would be advantages of pneumatics in the woods.

 

That rear trailer axle is very substantial.  So, if the truck was rated for 4,000 lbs (plus 2x2500 lb tires on the rear).  And the trailer had another 4000 to 6000 lbs, that would get one up to 8,000 to 10,000 lbs or so which would be sufficient to haul a moderate sized log out of the woods.
 

The trailer has a mixed set of spring leaves, so the spring pack may have been added to.  It has a couple of broken leaves, and shows signs of bottoming out at some point.

 

I'm expecting to find mighty low gearing in the truck rearend.  Perhaps lower than 10:1 or 20:1.  That would allow the truck to absolutely crawl through the mountains.  But, not designed for the freeways which weren't built  for a few more decades.

 

Here is a photo of the transmission/cockpit. 

 

The clutch cover has been open for quite some time, and worries me about the shape of the bottom half of the clutch, flywheel, and ring gear.  I opened the top of the transmission yesterday, and it looks clean inside.

 

This is hanging off of the back of the transmission.

 

 

I believe that it is a PTO driven air pump.  If I'm right, it would indicate that the pneumatic tires were likely a factory option.

 

There are lots of little bits of yellow/orange paint visible on various components.  Potentially at least partly repainted at some point in history.

 

Somebody asked what color it will be painted, and I kind of like that yellow orange color.

[1912Staver]

That's a super find ! Those pneumatics are more along the lines of a city delivery truck. Most of the loggers were as a number of people have said larger , and on hard rubber. 

Hard to say for sure from your photos , but they look like Firestone " B " truck series rims.  Clean up one of the clamps and you might find the Firestone logo. 

The rims are a bit hard to find. Virtually all the surviving early / mid 1920's trucks on pneumatics use  these rims so there are always a number of people looking for them. { myself included }

 My guess is that it is a truck that was converted to work in the forest later in its life.  

And that Alco axle is from a very top notch Co, and would have been originally teamed up with a substantially larger truck than your  Commerce. Unfortunately only a handful of Alco trucks survive.

All in all a great start !

 

Greg

[CliffordK]

Thanks @1912Staver

 

I've been hunting for new rims, with absolutely no luck.  But, having a name to look for helps (although classified ads often have unpredictable search keys).

 

Coker has good tires, rather expensive.  But, all their lock ring rims are 3 3/4" wide, somewhat narrow, and of a different design from the original. 

 

I'm still considering options at this time.  I could go to drop center, but there are several reasons why that wouldn't be a great option either.

 

I've got to make a sparkplug/valve bung wrench and get the spark plug bungs out, then I'll try to get the drivetrain pulled and start working on that this fall/winter.  So wheels would be a fun project, but not necessarily an immediate need.  I did get one bung out with a stuck sparkplug (both good and bad).   But, I want to get those pulled while the engine is still in the frame.

 

[edinmass]

I expect much of the hauling of logs would have been done when the ground was frozen.......common practice.......logging companies had trucks of that size acting as mobile repair shops, saw sharpening units, chuck wagons.......supply runs, ect. The air pump is normal on many cars and trucks up till 1933. 

[CliffordK]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I expect much of the hauling of logs would have been done when the ground was frozen.......common practice.......logging companies had trucks of that size acting as mobile repair shops, saw sharpening units, chuck wagons.......supply runs, ect. The air pump is normal on many cars and trucks up till 1933. 

 

We don't get a significant hard freeze in the valleys here.  At least we haven't for many years.  We did get a couple of hard freezes in the early 70's, but that may have even been unusual.

 

It would, of course, freeze in the mountains, but that would depend on which mountain range (Coastal vs Cascades).  The higher elevations get a significant snowpack which would certainly impact logging operations.

 

In the lower elevations, Oregon is quite dry in the summer, and WET in the winter.  So, it could quickly become a muddy mess in the winters.

 

There was a significant Tillamook fire in the early 1930's caused by logging in the late summer.  I'm not sure when fire regulations would have come to play, but I presume there has been more concern over logging fires since at least the 1950's.  And, thus not necessarily impacting the early logging trucks.

 

I think the main benefit of historical winter logging might be the ability to float logs down rivers.  While many mills would truck logs to mill ponds, floating logs down rivers might have been independent from trucking.

[CliffordK]

You guys may be right that the truck may have been repurposed over time.  Potentially rebuilt to different specs.

 

I'll continue with the interpretation that at one time the truck was married to the trailer for the purpose of hauling logs out of the woods, and not just set up as say a yard-art display.

 

Not all trees would be monsters that would push modern trucks and equipment to the limits, and being hauled on substantially smaller trucks.  It is possible that a younger driver might have been given a lighter truck.

[AHa]

Commerce trucks are well known in certain circles. A Robert Bosch mag is superior to a Bosch mag. 3 3/4 bore is the smallest Continental motor I believe and in trucks,  it is not the HP but the gearing, same as tractors.

 

I had a friend in Texas that stumbled across an old warehouse full of old trucks. He was able to talk the guy out of one,a three cylinder, two stroke  (I can't remember the make). It was well preserved and Joe Ersland asked him to bring it to Chickashea to draw interest. To Chickashea it went and for several days people begged to buy it. I told my friend not to price it, it was too nice, somebody would buy it, but no,my friend said he had it priced high enough there would be no takers. On Friday a guy came along whose wife had the same last name as the truck so he said he would take it and went off to the bank to get the money. My friend was sick and while he was agonizing over the sale a friend of his stopped by to talk and in conversation, asked, "How much for the truck?" My friend told him the story of how he just brought the truck for display, did not want to sale it, but just had a guy leave to get the money. At this point, the guy got up and pulled a wad of money from his pocket and peeled off the money for the quoted price. My friend whined and moaned about the sale of that truck for several years. One day the guy that bought it called my friend to see if he wanted his truck back. Of course he did and an exchange was made and my friend got his truck back. Turned out the new owner was going to drive the truck in a parade but although he lived in town, right by the parade start, by the time they got there, the parade had left. The truck would only go three miles an hour. I love this story. Of course my friend was elated he got his truck back. He really didn't care how fast it went, he just loved that truck!

Edited September 5, 2020 by AHa (see edit history)

[CliffordK]

14 minutes ago, AHa said:

Commerce trucks are well known in certain circles. A Robert Bosch mag is superior to a Bosch mag. 3 3/4 bore is the smallest Continental motor I believe and in trucks,  it is not the HP but the gearing, same as tractors.

...

Turned out the new owner was going to drive the truck in a parade but although he lived in town, right by the parade start, by the time they got there, the parade had left. The truck would only go three miles an hour. I love this story. Of course my friend was elated he got his truck back. He really didn't care how fast it went, he just loved that truck!

Thanks for the notes. 

Cute story. 

 

I've wondered about the speed of the truck, especially up hills.  We'll see once I get it running (hopefully).  I'm not expecting much of a speedster. 

[edinmass]

Best guess as to speed........15-20 mph...........

[AHa]

There was a guy on here two weeks ago looking for parts for an early Republic Truck. I believe his truck has the same motor. You might want to contact him and you guys could compare notes.

[jan arnett (2)]

32 minutes ago, AHa said:

There was a guy on here two weeks ago looking for parts for an early Republic Truck. I believe his truck has the same motor. You might want to contact him and you guys could compare notes.

I don;t think Republic used a Continential engine.  I have an owners manual and I will check it.  I think they use a Budda engine.

 

[CliffordK]

7 minutes ago, jan arnett (2) said:

I don;t think Republic used a Continential engine.  I have an owners manual and I will check it.  I think they use a Budda engine.

 

Perhaps there were a couple of different engines used, different years, etc.

 

Here is the other thread.

 

(a few different threads by the author)

 

The truck is very similar to mine including the same rear-end, and same engine from what I can tell.

 

[blastermike]

Hi clifford

yeh some of the smaller Republics used continental engines

the 3 3/4 is the bore size, my engine is a continental N type engine nos113286 and the chassis nos dates my truck to built sometime in 1920

it also has the torbensen geardrive rear axle same as yours, my truck was a 3000lb rated truck

a fellow 11X republic truck owner told me what carb to look for which is a zenith T4 which i have just had one offered to me and another forum member has part of the mag quadrant but the levers are of an earlier model, 

but its great to be able to find the parts i have so far, the bottom radiator tank on the truck was destroyed when a tree fell across the front, i do have another rad but its slightly larger so im looking at having a new bottom tank recast ? 

2nd pic shows a plate over a starter position hole and in bottom left corner of last pic shows the little oil level gauge which has a black arrow, probably had a glass face ?

clifford your engine looks the same with the lower rad tube on an angle and the top water tube shape, these engines are rated at 22.5 H/P

mike

[blastermike]

The chassis nos list for models with continental engines

[CliffordK]

@blastermike,

Well, that answers my question!!!!

... almost.

 

So, I need the Branham Automobile Reference Book!!!!

At least some copies are online (1925)

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112054727372&view=1up&seq=5

 

 

So that puts my serial number between 30,000 and 30,486 for a late 1919 model!!!

 

My Continental Engine Number is: 92387, or slightly before yours (113286).  They must have been churning out a lot of engines (relatively speaking).

[Luv2Wrench]

Wow, what a great looking project!  That truck is super cool and I'd have no trouble at all dating it.  

 

[AHa]

So, Mike needs an intake for his truck I believe. Does your motor have the intake? You guys should definitely get together on that. Yours could be used as a pattern to cast one. Dale is offering mike a set of wheels. If both trucks have the same rear, the hubs will fit and the wheels can be respoked. Sounds like a good opportunity to me.

 

Also, there is a guy who posted a bunch of stuff he is going to try to dispose of and there is a bunch of rims in the pile. You might want to check to see what he's got.

Edited September 7, 2020 by AHa (see edit history)

[CliffordK]

31 minutes ago, AHa said:

So, Mike needs an intake for his truck I believe. Does your motor have the intake? You guys should definitely get together on that. Yours could be used as a pattern to cast one. Dale is offering mike a set of wheels. If both trucks have the same rear, the hubs will fit and the wheels can be respoked. Sounds like a good opportunity to me.

 

Also, there is a guy who posted a bunch of stuff he is going to try to dispose of and there is a bunch of rims in the pile. You might want to check to see what he's got.

Thanks for the notes.

 

Both trucks were missing the carbs, and with suggestions from another member, the models of carbs were slightly different.  I'm not familiar enough with the different models to know the differences.

 

My truck did indeed have the intake, middle of this photo, and I've mentioned it to @blastermike

 

 

My intake is a different design than Mike had posted earlier.

 

I don't have any ability to cast iron, but I might be able to cast brass, bronze, or aluminum in the near future (noting shrinkage).

 

Or, a simple curved steel pipe could be bent and get two flanges welded on.  It should be a pretty simple build.

 

I did send a note to @Ovalrace25 about the rims, and am waiting to hear back.  I fear that car sizes, or modern truck sizes will be more common than teens/twenties truck sizes, although I do see what appear to be two solid rubber tires in the pile.

 

I think all of my hubs are good.  Just the rims are bad.  I took off the front wheels.  They have roller bearings mounted flat, and were loose.  But, everything looks like it could have races replaced with modern tapered roller bearings (if I can find the right size). 

 

I have pneumatics on the truck.  Mike has solid tires on the truck.  I don't know what was on my trailer.  I believe that the trailer wheels had been rebuilt from 14 spoke to 12 spoke at some time in the past, and may have had solid tires changed to pneumatics at that time.

 

I've determined my truck is a late 1919 model, and there is a good chance that the trailer axle predates 1913, and likely has evolved over time.

Edited September 7, 2020 by CliffordK (see edit history)

[AHa]

Just so you know, if your front hubs used the old cup bearings, there is a guy in California making new cups. This early stuff is usually not hard, 4140, which machines rather well, is harder than most early bearings. The ball bearings are cheap. I believe truck rims changed very little over time. Instead of spokes, they got metal centers but I believe, if you cut the metal centers out, the rims will fit your wheels. My memory does not serve me like it used to, but I believe thats what people used to do for rims on up into the 30s and 40s. And how solid rubber was changed to pneumatic.

 

 

[CliffordK]

2 hours ago, AHa said:

Just so you know, if your front hubs used the old cup bearings, there is a guy in California making new cups. This early stuff is usually not hard, 4140, which machines rather well, is harder than most early bearings. The ball bearings are cheap. I believe truck rims changed very little over time. Instead of spokes, they got metal centers but I believe, if you cut the metal centers out, the rims will fit your wheels. My memory does not serve me like it used to, but I believe thats what people used to do for rims on up into the 30s and 40s. And how solid rubber was changed to pneumatic.

 

 

I'll try to get some photos of the bearings once I get them cleaned up.

 

Like I said, they are a fairly chunky roller bearing with a small ridge on the inside face of the inner bearing and on the outside face of the outer bearing.  But, because they are pure flat bearings, they are quite loose.  Otherwise they were in a grease and are in generally good shape.  Although one of the inner races just accidentally fell out, so it was loose too.

 

However, as mentioned, I'll look at tapered roller bearings if I can find the right size.  They would be completely hidden from view, and make the wheels very tight.

 

Nonetheless, there are springs in the steering, so some flex is expected.

[CliffordK]

Oh, as far as using old truck rims.  I have thought about that.  However, "Modern" truck tires come in a few different sizes.

 

10x20 (available in split rims, including Dayton demountable split rims).

...R22.5 (I think these mostly replaced the 10x20.  I think drop center only).

...R24.5 (I think also drop center only).

 

Pickup and light trucks also had a 19.5" lockring split rim with almost usable tires.

 

I have also found 24" drop center tractor rims which I might be able to cut down to 4 to 5" wide (essentially reverse banding). 

 

However, at this point, I think I'll try to keep with the lock ring split rims, in part because I think they may have designed this to change the tires while still on the truck, and that will be easier to do with the lock rings. 

 

I haven't gotten one apart yet, but these seem to use the rim+small triangular split ring+larger complete circle band. 

 

No matter what I do, I'll build a portable safety cage to seat the rings.

 

I might consider going to 20" wheels.  That would make things a lot easier, but at this point, I am wanting to stay fairly original with the 24" wheels.

[1912Staver]

Trying to adapt drop center rims to wood spoke wheels is going to be a very uphill battle.  It was to the best of my knowledge never done by any of the O.E.M . wheel or rim manufacturers .

Assuming your rims and fellow bands are Firestone , they are out there . They come up for sale from time to time, but are often a bit more than I am willing to pay. Especially once shipping is included.

I have been able to gather up a set , one by one. From swap meets over the years, particularly the Portland meet in April.  The only thing that I have not been able to find { at a price that I can swing } are

the wider ones that the rear of my truck should have.

Your truck is smaller and I expect all 4 would be the narrowest version which are listed as a 5" wide rim. If you are interested I have a rim catalog which has a decent section on the various Firestone truck 

series rims.

The felloes are actually harder to find than the rims , do you have all 4 ?

They are absolutely designed to be removable for tire changing. But only when the rim is removed from the truck. These 24" tires are a workout to change with the rim lying flat on the ground, if you tried to

change a tire with the rim still on the truck it would make things that much harder.

They are quite good rims !  Trying to adapt a different style { drop center } is something I would steer well clear of.

 

Greg

1918 Packard 2 ton

[CliffordK]

Someone mentioned a Canyonville Swap at the end of this month, and I may head down there.  It should be fun, especially if I make a list of things to hunt for. 

 

@1912Staver A copy of the Firestone catalog might be interesting.  

 

I'm pretty sure my rims are about 4 1/2" wide on the inside, but perhaps there are different ways of measuring.  Nonetheless, 5" would fit well.  I think the Coker rims at 3 3/4 would be too narrow in general, although I suppose I don't have to build the truck for carrying much weight. 

 

Nonetheless, I don't want to spend a fortune on parts, and a ton of time building them up to only do a half a job.

 

I'll work on getting a rim disassembled and cleaned up in the next couple of days.  I think the felloes are primarily wood, although perhaps there are both wood and metal components.

 

While I may have a couple of reasonably solid spokes, all the wood components will need to be replaced.

 

The truck came with 6 hubs (truck + trailer).

3 rims/felloes/outer wheels.

1 rim appears to be far beyond saving. 

The other 2 rims are also very rough, and probably should be replaced, but I'll inspect closer soon. 

 

The 3 wheels that I do have appear to have good wedges/clamps.  But, that means I'll need twice as many as I have...  I.E...  a bunch!!!  Another hurdle as I get a little further along.

[1912Staver]

I will see if I can get my scans to attach . { computer clutz }

If you have Firestone felloes you need Firestone truck series 24" rims. I don't think anyone is re- producing them.  You are correct , your felloes are wood where the spokes terminate . And then the steel , rim mounting felloe ring is attached to it.

It's a very good system, but you need all the correct parts.

For some reason my scans will only show up as a pdf which I can't post here. 

I will try sending them as a PM , it might work.

 

Greg

[1912Staver]

No, same problem. Looks like I am going to have to learn to use a scanner before I can send them.

Don't give up on your existing wheel set up ! Your project  has far more  of the needed parts than my Packard did when I first found it. Patience and persistence is key with old vehicles.

 

Greg

[CliffordK]

Not much progress for the last few days. 

Monday night, storm and lost power (possibly intentionally shut off by utility.  A forest fire started about 4 miles east of me....  and expanded about 20 to 30 miles in the first 24 hours.

Tuesday...  progressed through Level 1, Level 2, and finally Level 3 fire evacuation (technically drop and run).

However, Wednesday they were allowing people to continue to haul stuff out. 

 

The truck remains.  I decided that it could largely survive a fire, and loading and unloading the cradle it is sitting on using hand tools would be a major task with other easier and more valuable stuff around.

 

It looks like the fire is stalling short of my house, but it remains a potentially dangerous situation.

[1912Staver]

I will try those pages again. The type  B rims are what these early trucks generally use.

 

Greg

Edited September 14, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[CliffordK]

@1912Staver

Thanks for the scans.  As mentioned above, I've been "Evacuated" for fires for the last week.  I think the fires have stopped short of my house, but it has put the disassembly and cleaning work on hold for a bit.

 

I see the confusion on sizes.  Firestone is sizing the rims based on tire sizes.  So, on the second page of scans it lists a 36x6 tire on a rim that is 4.3" wide, and a 38x7 tire on a 5" wide rim.

 

I think mine currently have that "steel band for wood felloe", although from the image, the steel felloe appears to have a simpler construction.

 

I'm going to go poking around the Springfield Wrecking Yard as soon as I get a chance.

[Westfalia]

Do you have the magneto switch in the dash? If it is Bosch, I believe that the magneto is original one. I have Eisemann switch and Eisemann magneto. But to have Eisemann switch and Bosch magneto, then I think that another one is replaced. 

[Westfalia]

My engine has totally different type intake, and Zenith carb.

[CliffordK]

4 hours ago, Westfalia said:

Do you have the magneto switch in the dash? If it is Bosch, I believe that the magneto is original one. I have Eisemann switch and Eisemann magneto. But to have Eisemann switch and Bosch magneto, then I think that another one is replaced. 

I'll look at the dash switch a bit closer once I get moved back home.

 

It has 2 gauges and one  switch, I think. 

 

 

One ammeter or voltmeter.

One oil pressure gauge, I think,

And the switch. 

 

All three are in very poor condition, and I think the contacts in the main switch had mostly fallen apart and crumbled.

 

[CliffordK]

On 9/14/2020 at 2:41 PM, Westfalia said:

Do you have the magneto switch in the dash? If it is Bosch, I believe that the magneto is original one. I have Eisemann switch and Eisemann magneto. But to have Eisemann switch and Bosch magneto, then I think that another one is replaced. 

Ok, back to the drawing board.

 

The dash switch appears to be headlights only, and is in really bad shape.

 

The Ammeter is marked "Roller-Smith Co", and "Bijur" (which matches the Bijur generator).

There appears to be an oil pressure gauge that is in really bad shape.  No close-ups at this time.

 

No other dash switches or gauges.

 

 

Crank start.

 

Kill switch would be elsewhere.  I think there is a "choke cable" attached to the steering column.  Perhaps it is worth inspecting that more.