Foam seals problem- 31 Buick rumble lid-HELP

[Str8-8-Dave]

Hi to all;  I'm really stuck trying to come up with seals that are thick enough to be useful and compress-able enough to let the lid close when it is aligned correctly.  I started with 1/2" thick by 3/4" wide solid closed cell foam from Bob's Automobilia that was listed as trunk and rumble lid seal and with a 1/4" thick shim spacer between the striker and the wood sill it screws to.  The shim business along with correctly adjusted corner bumpers with no seal seemed t be perfect, lid height was good all over and it closed and latched under it's own weight with a nice clunk.  Once the 2 side seals and front edge seal were installed it would not latch no matter how hard you slammed it.  I removed the shim and it still would not latch, the lock catch cannot get to the slotted opening in the striker.  Next I put the shim back in and ordered a 2 chamber hollow deck lid seal product from Steele Rubber.  With side seals in place and no front edge seal I could get the lid to latch with the shim in place.  Once I added the cross-lid front edge seal, no way would it close.  Then I added 1/8" spacers between the latch and the lid woodwork, no go.  Finally I removed the shim and left the 1/8" spacers under the lock and it reluctantly closes with a lot of effort and the height of the lid compared to the opening is awful.  Besides the lid now being high the two front lid bumpers run out of adjustment without touching the wood on the rumble lid so they are useless.  I have talked to Dave39MD and have pictures of his original lid and seal and while it is a solid foam seal it is apparently very soft and you can see in the picture below it lands on the metal seal edges of the opening and has taken a set, particularly in the corners.  Other pictures are of my lid before the seal  with the striker shim in place which produced the ideal alignment, then with the current 2 chamber hollow seal, no striker shim and 1/8" spacers between the latch mechanism and the lid wood at the 4 mounting screw locations.  

 

Does anyone have experience with an obstinate lid seal and a suggestion for a really soft compliant seal material I can use that will allow me to get the rumble lid to close with my striker shim in place for good alignment?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Dave

 

This is a picture of Dave39MD's unrestored original car.  If you look closely at the rumble lid seal it

has taken a set where it lands on the sheet metal seal edges of the opening .

 

This is how my lid alignment looked before seal installation trials began with the corners of the lid

resting on the corner bumpers in the lid opening and with a 1/4" shim between the striker and the 

body sill.  This was pretty acceptable alignment with the skin of the lid flush with the front deck

sheet metal and it closed with a nice clunk under it's own weight coming to rest on the corner bumpers.

 

 

This is the bottom side of the striker with a 1/4" shim under it to lower the striker to hold the lid on the corner bumpers.

 

This is one of the corner bumpers used to support the lid when closed and allow levelling from side to side when the lid latch engages.

 

This is the Steele Rubber profile I am working with now.  The Bob's seals were solid closed cell foam 1/2" thick x 3/4" wide.  The Bob's

seals were totally unusable so I moved onto the Steele Rubber seal with it's 2 open chambers which allow the seal to collapse a lot while

maintaining a high enough profile to positively seal against the sealing surfaces of the rumble lid opening. 

 

 

 

To get the latch to engage the striker I had to remove the striker shim from the latch striker and add 1/8" spacers between the  latch

mechanism and the wood frame of the rumble lid to get the latch to engage the striker.   Now the lid sits way too high and the corner

bumpers can not be adjusted high enough to level the lid from side to side.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
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[Mark Shaw]

You might try poking some holes in one of the chambers so the rubber can compress.

[Str8-8-Dave]

Hi Mark and thanks  for the response.  I am not sure what there is to gain by poking holes in the chambers when they are open all the way through the length of the seals and are vented out the bottom of the side seals.  I tried getting up on the rear bumper of the car and applying weight or downward force to see if the seals would settle and allow the latch to engage with no luck.  The seal across the width of the lid is the likely culprit, if that seal is left off and side seals remain the lid will close with a moderate slam with the shim under the striker and no spacers between the latch mechanism and the lid.  Not sure if that is a clearance difference or a difference in where the seals land on the metal edges of the opening.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
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[jpage]

Check with Restoration specialties in Pa. They have many rubber profiles available at a much more reasonable price than Steele. They will send you samples. Good luck!

[Mark Shaw]

12 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

I am not sure what there is to gain by poking holes in the chambers when they are open all the way through the length of the seals and are vented out the bottom of the side seals.

Dave,

    The lid may be pinching the ends of the seal and preventing air from being released through the bottom of the side seals. 

What can it hurt to punch a few relief holes?

[JACK M]

6 hours ago, jpage said:

Check with Restoration specialties in Pa. They have many rubber profiles available at a much more reasonable price than Steele. They will send you samples. Good luck!

 

You also get what you pay for.

[Str8-8-Dave]

Mark- Thanks again for your suggestion and I will try what you suggest.   I'm also going to remove all of the seals and place a bead of modelling clay covered with wax paper along the length of the  sealing edges of the opening,, remove the shims from the latch and reinstall the shim under the striker and close the lid carefully.  If the wax paper does it's job when I open the lid I should have an idea of how much clearance there is from the lid to the sealing edges of the rumble opening.  That should help me understand if this is just a clearance issue. 

[Alan G]

Dave, i realise it is a bit far away but there is a good company in the UK who have a great range of seals. They are very helpful too and have a great catalogue.www.sealsdirect.co.uk

[edinmass]

Many rumble seat lids had no seals, or a very minor rubber bumper. Most had water channels that directed the water down and back, and had drain holes with tubes to let it out. You may be over thinking the problem. The more expensive the car, the less likely it has a seal.

Edited May 24, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jpage]

What some may not realize that in the aftermarket business, not all vendors actually make all of their rubber parts. Restoration Specialties has been supplying several large rubber vendors with bulk profile rubber, rubber bumpers, grommets, rubber replacement kits and beltstrips for many years. Many of the smaller items are made in house. It is true that you get what you pay for, but having worked for them I can vouch for the quality of their parts. Now keep in mind, that many reproduction extrusions and cast rubber parts are designed from old samples that may or, in most cases, not be true to the original parts, so consequently, the reproduction parts will not be exactly like the original. You can't define quality by price, and that's true in all business!

[Str8-8-Dave]

This is meant to be constructive criticism based on my shopping experience with both Steele Rubber and Restoration Specialties with a comment on Bob's added.  When you look at the list of "generic" rubber profiles on the Steele website there are many profiles to choose from all priced by the foot and accompanied by a picture of the item and an engineering drawing of the dimensions like the one I included in my first post.  That makes selecting likely candidates for a seal in the absence of year/make/model-specific product at least doable, I filled out a survey and stated it would be nice to have even more engineering specifications such as PSI crush rates and recommended range of deflection.  The Restorations Specialties extrusions I looked at showed the shape of the profile but lacked any dimensions making it a guessing game as to size.   Some items were priced by the foot and others you had to take a predetermined length which may have been more then the amount required making the Restoration Specialties product more expensive if you picked a fixed length item and it is more than required.  Also some items came up as year/make/model specific rather than "generic" so the items are all missed together.  Bottom line is I found the Steele Rubber items described in much better detail and , generic extrusions segregated from car  specific items and all priced by the foot.  I also find their shipping charges much better than Bob's who charge flat-rates based on price of order. 

 

 

[Str8-8-Dave]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Many rumble seat lids had no seals, or a very minor rubber bumper. Most had water channels that directed the water down and back, and had drain holes with tubes to let it out. You may be over thinking the problem. The mode expensive the car, the less likely it has a seal.

 

 

Edinmass- Now your comment is very interesting- will have me trying to find pictures of other 31 Buicks with rumble lids that don't have seals. I would say the design of my car supports what you said regarding channels to divert water from the front edge down the sides of the openings. The lid flange sticks down into the troughs and across the front trough there is a forward facing 1/2" wide flange that would prevent water from spilling over the rear edge of the trough.  What I do not have any evidence of is overboard drain tubes at the end of the side troughs but there are a rectangular holes through the rumble compartment floor that could be drain holes.  Did any of the Cadillac cars you had have rumble lids sans seals?   I'd love to have a picture of such an arrangement, especially overboard tubes...

 

Thanks a ton for this post...

 

Dave

 

This is a "post script" commentary.  The way I got started trying to incorporate seals on my rumble lid was largely due to the fact Dave39MD's rumble seat lid has what appear to be simple rectangular section sold seals on the sides and front of his rumble lid which may have led me to an incorrect conclusion that ALL 31 8-66S cars are supposed have rumble lid seals.  In retrospect that may have ben a bad assumption on my part.  My car is an early job number compared to Dave's and has some obvious differences due to Buick and Fisher Body running changes.  My car's bumpers for instance are what I would characterize as carryover 1930 twin bar bumpers where Dave39MD's car has single bar bumpers which may have been implemented late in the model run to exhaust 2 bar bumper stock in anticipation of the 1932 models that all had single bar bumpers.  I read in Automobile Quarterly's good book called The Buick that early cars had bronze camshaft bearings which had a high failure rate so Buick went to babbited cam bearings as a running change, then had to repair cars already delivered to customers that experienced cam bearing failure.    It occurs to me now that the rumble lid seal may have been added by the factory late in the model run which would explain how Dave39MD's car could be perfectly correct to have rumble lid seals and my car to be perfectly correct without rumble lid seals...

Edited May 24, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
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[edinmass]

I sold my two 31 Cadillacs that had rumble seats. As memory serves me there was a recessed seal flush with the lid that closed up on thr rain channel edges. It was more of an anti rattle item than a seal. Ask for photos of Cadillacs or Buick’s from 29-32 since they were all the same factory they are very similar. The large series Buick latch is the same as Cadillac. 

[John_Mereness]

Our 1931 Cadillac Opera Coupe had no seals on the lid - or at least showed no signs of a seal ever.  And it was a pretty well thought out drain system too. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

As a sidenote:  I now have about $250 in different trunk seals for the 1936 Auburn and trying about the 6th seal now - it only takes a hair of excess to cause the lid to not close and a hair undersized to allow water into the trunk. 

[PFitz]

Walker bodied 31 Franklin Conv Coupe. The original lid seal is just a flat, soft sponge rubber strip glued into the  lid's edge recess. It presses against the raised edge of the drip gutter surrounding the front and sides of the rumble seat opening. By only contacting that raised edge, it leaves the drip gutter clear so that water can run down in the gutter  to drain holes in a tray under the lid's rear edge.   Restoration specialties had the correct rectangular cross section and correct density of sponge rubber. The quality is excellent.

 

Paul

Edited May 24, 2020 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 11:11 AM, Mark Shaw said:

Dave,

    The lid may be pinching the ends of the seal and preventing air from being released through the bottom of the side seals. 

What can it hurt to punch a few relief holes?

Mark- I punched about 50 holes in the rubber seals, no go.  The seals are still too thick across the top of the lid.  Sides are fine.

[John_Mereness]

Get the good scissors out, take your time, and really carefully cut the top half of the seal off - not a perfect solution, but perhaps will work and still look decent too. 

[Str8-8-Dave]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Get the good scissors out, take your time, and really carefully cut the top half of the seal off - not a perfect solution, but perhaps will work and still look decent too. 

Hi John- I'm ahead of you on this but rather than lopping off the top, I lopped off the bottom and the seal is still too thick when I add my striker shim back in to get correct lid levelling and height when closed.   I have a couple of different seal profiles I will try as soon as they arrive.  I have at least isolated the clearance issue to the upper cross car seal. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

  I have a couple of different seal profiles I will try as soon as they arrive. 

Same story of my life recently too

[Str8-8-Dave]

Are you having a seal struggle of your own John?

[John_Mereness]

1 minute ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

Are you having a seal struggle of your own John?

1936 Auburn 852 Phaeton (whatever I had in the past three Auburn's is no longer available - so keeping at it and maybe will find something I like).

[Str8-8-Dave]

I've run into that a lot on the Buick.  This the 3rd one I've had since 1970 and so much stuff has disappeared over the years.  Some stuff that is supposed to be for these 31's ain't  like the firewall grommet for wiring, temp gauge and wiper vacuum line.  I bought a windshield seal set and the side seals were worthless, the WIperman says "sorry" when I ask for parts and service for Trico, etc.  Hang in there John- that's a great car you are working on.  I'm sure it will get what it needs...

 

Dave

[John_Mereness]

19 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

I've run into that a lot on the Buick.  This the 3rd one I've had since 1970 and so much stuff has disappeared over the years.  Some stuff that is supposed to be for these 31's ain't  like the firewall grommet for wiring, temp gauge and wiper vacuum line.  I bought a windshield seal set and the side seals were worthless, the WIperman says "sorry" when I ask for parts and service for Trico, etc.  Hang in there John- that's a great car you are working on.  I'm sure it will get what it needs...

 

Dave

Dave, I usually take on far more challenging projects that the Auburn (this car's more challenging problems being that it was taken apart for restoration in late 1960's, having been used as a parts car for a Boattail Speedster resulting in a certain amount of parts being missing, and some hack job mechanical work that needed corrected (the flip side of the coin being the car lived most of its life in Pasadena, California and being well stored always, low mileage, and ...   - I am doing it for myself as it is a they are really nice cars to run on road matched to good size and ... matched to wanting it done in my color choice and done a certain way as to nut and bolt correctness and .... = but Yes, to your point it gets harder to do cars by the day, especially when you intend to use something for touring verses it being a garage queen.  

[Str8-8-Dave]

Hello to all and special thanks for everyone's input, always valued and appreciated.  

 

I finally got a combination that works acceptably.  I narrowed the problem down to insufficient clearance of the cross-car or upper lid seal to the sealing edge on the rumble lid opening gutter.  I ordered and got 2 new seal profiles from Steele Rubber, and the first one I tried combined with removing ALL shims, those under the 4 screw locations on the latch which lowered the latch about 1/8" and a 1/4" thick  shim placed under the striker which was used to lower the striker.  Using the same seal all around the lid, I could only get the lid to patch with no shim at the striker and the shims in play to lower the latch mechanism on the lid.  This left the lid too high and made the corner bumpers useless as they could not be adjusted up high enough to contact the lid and level it.  The original seal I tried had 2 hollow chambers running the length of the seal material.  I gave up on that profile for the cross car upper lid seal and replaced it with a half round seal that only has 1 hollow chamber running the length of the seal, is a bit softer, 1/4" lower in height and has a rib or lip at about 2-oclock on the radius of the seal and angles off at about 45 degrees.  This seal is self adhesive. Here are a couple of shots of the 2 seal profiles.  The first profile I tried all round is on the right.

 

Here is the new one in front of the old for a height comparison.

 

The base of the original seal profile is foam with no adhesive and was contact cemented to the lid.  The second profile on the left is self

adhesive.

 

The new profile is a bit wider than the old profile.  The old profile is about 5/8" wide at the base and fit nicely in the side channels of

the lid.  The new seal's lip fills in the gap on the wider upper lid channel and almost looks like it belonged there.  

 

I was able to contact cement the corners of the 2 seal profiles together in the corners.  

 

Removing the shims at the 4 screw locations on the latch made the lid close just enough tighter to be able to get the right corner bumper

adjusted just high enough to contact the lid when closed and level it.  Between the levelling and pulling the lid down another 1/8-3/16" made 

levelling and closed height look pretty good.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
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