1936 Chrysler Airstream C-8 Convertible Restoration

[Professor]

I have a leak down tester and I will run the tests this weekend.  I may even pull the head this weekend.  Thanks Bloo.

 

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Bloo said:

 

That's exactly the same thing, just without a regulator for convenient control and a gauge to convert leakage air to percent.

 

All I would really add to what VW4X4 said is that unlike valves, the rings will ALWAYS leak enough to make significant noise, so don't interpret some hissing there as a bad engine. If you don't have the regulator you won't be able to quantify how much they leak. That does not matter because a 16 PSI cylinder is 99% not "rings", unless there is a bunch of broken ring lands or a hole in the piston or something like that. It is no doubt a valve problem, and most likely a burned exhaust valve.

 

Always check for tight valves first though.

 

 

[VW4X4]

Professor,     How did the engine testing come out?   Make any head way??

 

ERIC

 

[Professor]

Hi Eric,

 

I managed to get sidetracked last weekend with farm work and have not checked compression.  The compression tester came in from Amazon and it is sitting in the garage waiting for me.  Spring break is next week so I will have all week to play around with the Chrysler.

 

I have been thinking about how I will be able to remove the front fenders / front section of the Chrysler without any help and I suspect I am going to need to find some friends to assist.  The problem is, academic faculty are not particularly inclined to want to lift heavy objects and get dirty, so I need to find a plan B.

 

Has anyone removed the front section of one of these cars alone?  I have a ceiling mounted winch and a carriage I could use to remove the front section, but having never done it, I have no idea what the weight is, or how awkward it is to life.

 

Joe

[tomcarnut]

1 hour ago, Professor said:

Hi Eric,

 

I managed to get sidetracked last weekend with farm work and have not checked compression.  The compression tester came in from Amazon and it is sitting in the garage waiting for me.  Spring break is next week so I will have all week to play around with the Chrysler.

 

I have been thinking about how I will be able to remove the front fenders / front section of the Chrysler without any help and I suspect I am going to need to find some friends to assist.  The problem is, academic faculty are not particularly inclined to want to lift heavy objects and get dirty, so I need to find a plan B.

 

Has anyone removed the front section of one of these cars alone?  I have a ceiling mounted winch and a carriage I could use to remove the front section, but having never done it, I have no idea what the weight is, or how awkward it is to life.

 

Joe

Joe,

 

Enjoying your progress. This is where AACA local region or chapter members might help. In our Southern Ohio Chapter of Cincinnati/ Dayton Ohio members, I would have several members willing to help me in short order.

 

Tom

 

[VW4X4]

6 hours ago, Professor said:

Hi Eric,

 

I managed to get sidetracked last weekend with farm work and have not checked compression.  The compression tester came in from Amazon and it is sitting in the garage waiting for me.  Spring break is next week so I will have all week to play around with the Chrysler.

 

I have been thinking about how I will be able to remove the front fenders / front section of the Chrysler without any help and I suspect I am going to need to find some friends to assist.  The problem is, academic faculty are not particularly inclined to want to lift heavy objects and get dirty, so I need to find a plan B.

 

Has anyone removed the front section of one of these cars alone?  I have a ceiling mounted winch and a carriage I could use to remove the front section, but having never done it, I have no idea what the weight is, or how awkward it is to life.

 

Joe

    Start by removing the front bumper. Next, the engine cover, is probably the hardest part, only becasue its so bulky, and your whole objective is to prevent paint damage. Once that's off, the front fenders are not as heavy as you think.  Again, removal without scratching the paint is another problem.  If you have plenty of room its not going to be that hard. .  Once the fenders are off you can remove the brackets that hold up the fenders, and the grill shell can easily be lifted off.  ITs not that bad, except for the swear words when the scratches happen...

 

Edit.....  The trans. has  to be removed, and obviously the drive shaft. This means the  two pieces of front floor will need to come out.  Unless you have a lift, you my want to remove the running boards, otherwise you will be reaching over them, then under and around them numorous  times.

By the time all is said and done a lot of the car is dismantled.  Over my career I've seen hundreds

of cars from the thirties dismantled to this stage and left for dead.  This I'm sure is a big reason why. 

 

 

 

ERIC

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by VW4X4 (see edit history)

[Piaras]

The wife and I can vouch for the difficulty in lifting the engine cover! With four moving panels and the need to lift and wiggle to release it from the cowl and rad support, it is an interesting adventure!

Pierre

[Professor]

Thanks so much for the guidance.  Here is my current plan:

 

1.  Compression test, report numbers here

2.  Leak down test, report results here

3. If the leak down test shows a valve as the issue in cylinder 3:

4. Remove head (I know that this may not be necessary, but I want to do it to inspect everything

5. Upload some images here and see what everyone things would be the next step.

 

Standby for more this weekend or early next week.

 

Joe

[Professor]

Ugh…

 

[Piaras]

Ohoh

[VW4X4]

1 hour ago, Professor said:

Ugh…

 

Joe,   As some one had mentioned before did you try adding motor oil the  #3 spark plug hole and doing the compression test again?  I would put as much as 4 oz in ....  This will briefly seal up the rings if they are leaking.

It will not effect a leaking valve.

 

ERIc

 

[Piaras]

I would suspect a hung valve. I hope not a hole in the piston! The oil test will not change anything,as there is no pressure at all on that cylinder, but should do it on all the rest to get a read on the state of the rings.

Pierre

[Professor]

Hi Eric,

 

I will try this, but I have little hope.  I can actually hear the air escaping into the valve area now that I know what to listen for.  It certainly cannot hurt to try some oil so I will give it a shot.  I will also try this on cylinders 5, 6, and 7.

 

Joe

 

20 minutes ago, VW4X4 said:

Joe,   As some one had mentioned before did you try adding motor oil the  #3 spark plug hole and doing the compression test again?  I would put as much as 4 oz in ....  This will briefly seal up the rings if they are leaking.

It will not effect a leaking valve.

 

ERIc

 

 

[VW4X4]

3 hours ago, Professor said:

Hi Eric,

 

I will try this, but I have little hope.  I can actually hear the air escaping into the valve area now that I know what to listen for.  It certainly cannot hurt to try some oil so I will give it a shot.  I will also try this on cylinders 5, 6, and 7.

 

Joe

 

 

Well, a valve problem may be better than a piston/ring problem.  Valves can burn, and be replace without removing the engine.  Along with a bad valve, the valve seat, and valve guide may be in bad condition, but replacing just the valve, can get you  some extra mileage, before a complete rebuild is required.  

 

Eric

[Professor]

Eric,

 

I agree. If all of this turns out to be valves, I will be thrilled. We will know soon!

 

Joe

[Bloo]

If you've not checked the valve clearances, that would be next (or a leakdown test if there's any doubt about which valve). A valve could be stuck, too. It's a common plague on flathead engines. Of course a stuck valve is not closing completely, and that will show as extremely loose when you check the valve clearance.

[maok]

Zero psi on #3 suggestions either one or both valves are stuck. Unlikely a hole in the piston, if it was, you'd know about it.

 

As Bloo said, check the valve train before pulling the head.

[Professor]

2 hours ago, Bloo said:

If you've not checked the valve clearances, that would be next (or a leakdown test if there's any doubt about which valve). A valve could be stuck, too. It's a common plague on flathead engines. Of course a stuck valve is not closing completely, and that will show as extremely loose when you check the valve clearance.

Thanks @Bloo I have not touched the valves so I will check them after adding oil and checking compression followed by a leak down test.  I won’t touch the head until I get a firm grasp on what is going on with the valves.

 

While I would prefer not to run into issues like this, I actually enjoy sorting a car.  In my younger, less mature years, I would have been a bit emotional about issues like this.  Now… I just smile and take it one step at a time.

 

Joe

 

 

[Piaras]

Likely a stuck valve I would expect but hopefully not this or that….

The valve in the piston is one I found on the net. The two others are from an Oldsmobile 425 that sits on a shelf over my work desk.

Pierre

[Professor]

This says it all… a $20 endoscope in cylinder 3. 
 

 

[keiser31]

1 hour ago, Professor said:

This says it all… a $20 endoscope in cylinder 3. 
 

 

Ooooo....nasty!

[VW4X4]

This is good news.  You can easily pull the head, put a valve in it, and get some more life out of the engine, before the weekend.

Although the valve seat, and valve guide needs to be inspected.  HAving to replace those could mean engine removal from the car.  IF that's the case complete rebuild is now in order.   I'm sure you are going to find several other things that may be marginal. I would just do what is required and enjoy the car for the summer, at least.   A complete over haul will lay the car up for at least 6 months, and could be as long as years...

 

 

[Bloo]

OUCH!

 

Easy repair though. Replace that, lap em in and drive!

 

 

[Professor]

Eric,

 

Assuming I can get the parts I need, there is no way the car will be down for more than the summer.  Since I get summers off completely (three months), I will dedicate all my time to rebuilding the engine.  I have the skills to do the work myself, and we have a performance machine shop in my small town that can do the machine work.  I am torn between doing this right the first time and my desire to violate this car as little as possible.  Given the compression results with oil that suggest several cylinders have ring issues, and given the potential for catastrophic failure if something gives up the ghost early, I am definitely leaning towards taking things apart and spending whatever is necessary to make the engine as perfect as I can.  This said, there is a certain amount of “gosh… if I just pull the head to check on things, maybe it won’t be that bad” thoughts running around in my brain right now.  Many of the people responding to this thread have more experience than I do on these issues so I will absorb a few more comments and sleep on this for awhile before I decide anything.

 

Joe

 

30 minutes ago, VW4X4 said:

This is good news.  You can easily pull the head, put a valve in it, and get some more life out of the engine, before the weekend.

Although the valve seat, and valve guide needs to be inspected.  HAving to replace those could mean engine removal from the car.  IF that's the case complete rebuild is now in order.   I'm sure you are going to find several other things that may be marginal. I would just do what is required and enjoy the car for the summer, at least.   A complete over haul will lay the car up for at least 6 months, and could be as long as years...

 

 

 

[Professor]

Right???

 

LOL.

 

As much as I hate seeing a burned valve, I absolutely LOVE this inexpensive endoscope and the image it took.  🙂. 

 

Joe

 

33 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Ooooo....nasty!

 

[maok]

22 minutes ago, Bloo said:

OUCH!

 

Easy repair though. Replace that, lap em in and drive!

 

 

Most likely the best thing to do at this stage.

 

Even if you find out that the complete rebuild is needed, the valve/s replacement and regrind wont be a wasted exercise.

 

And don't forget to adjust the valve clearances.

Edited March 17, 2022 by maok (see edit history)

[Piaras]

I bought one of those USB endoscope a few years ago. Uses are almost limitless. 
 

Pull the head and while it is aside for repair, check the taper in the cylinders. This will tell you if a ball hone and new rings will do or a rebore and new pistons etc is needed.

Pierre

[Professor]

All,

 

Any recommendations on something special I should do to remove the head?  I will lubricate the nuts and tops of the studs in an attempt not to break a stud, but is there any preferred sequence to removing the nuts that hold the head on?  I will drain the coolant from the block and radiator and remove anything attached to the head (for example, the heater outlet and thermostat/thermostat housing), and then start removing the nuts.  Should I sequence loosen them?  I have never rebuilt a flathead and I do not want to make any mistakes.

 

Thanks so much for everyone’s help as I go through this.  I am so glad not to be doing this alone.

 

Joe

[keiser31]

31 minutes ago, Professor said:

All,

 

Any recommendations on something special I should do to remove the head?  I will lubricate the nuts and tops of the studs in an attempt not to break a stud, but is there any preferred sequence to removing the nuts that hold the head on?  I will drain the coolant from the block and radiator and remove anything attached to the head (for example, the heater outlet and thermostat/thermostat housing), and then start removing the nuts.  Should I sequence loosen them?  I have never rebuilt a flathead and I do not want to make any mistakes.

 

Thanks so much for everyone’s help as I go through this.  I am so glad not to be doing this alone.

 

Joe

I always try to slightly tighten the head bolts/nuts and THEN loosen. Sometimes this breaks the seal without breaking the bolt/nut.

[Piaras]

Was watching an episode of “Restoration Garage” where the mechanic was working on an old 1930 Dodge Brothers engine. Season 7 Ep 1. Lots of penetrating oil and light hammer blows to loosen the nuts and studs. Used an engine hoist to lift the head straight up once it was loosened from the studs. 
Pierre

[VW4X4]

6 hours ago, Professor said:

Eric,

 

Assuming I can get the parts I need, there is no way the car will be down for more than the summer.  Since I get summers off completely (three months), I will dedicate all my time to rebuilding the engine.  I have the skills to do the work myself, and we have a performance machine shop in my small town that can do the machine work.  I am torn between doing this right the first time and my desire to violate this car as little as possible.  Given the compression results with oil that suggest several cylinders have ring issues, and given the potential for catastrophic failure if something gives up the ghost early, I am definitely leaning towards taking things apart and spending whatever is necessary to make the engine as perfect as I can.  This said, there is a certain amount of “gosh… if I just pull the head to check on things, maybe it won’t be that bad” thoughts running around in my brain right now.  Many of the people responding to this thread have more experience than I do on these issues so I will absorb a few more comments and sleep on this for awhile before I decide anything.

 

Joe

 

 

Joe,   As noted by others, pull the head.   Based on what you find them, made the decision, (it may be made for you) to completely rebuild or not.   I can tell you lots of people want "ALL NEW"., or "ALL rebuilt".  About 50% of the time this is a huge mistake, specially with antique car engines where parts are very expensive or hard to come by.   Typically a lot of cars I've seen over the years end up with a engine swap to a V8, becasue this this.  I would hate to see this.  NEW is not necessarily better today.  As for machine shops, in my neck to the woods, unless your dropping hundred dollar bills on the floor behind you as you walk in there door, its almost impossible to get anything done.  Also, getting things done right, is another story. There's only one place left here in Pgh. that cuts crankshafts, and they are absolutely butchers...  I've ended up driving to Indiana dozens of times, to get custom or specialty things machined properly.   IF you find parts hard to get, go to the Chrysler Airflow groups. The Chrysler Airflow had lots of straight 8 engines.  I'm sure they can lead you to the proper vendors. 

ERIC

 

[Randiego]

Joe,

One of my cars is a 36 Plymouth P2 touring sedan.  This car was my first venture into Chrysler products.  I really came to respect Walter Chrysler as the engineering of these autos was much different than the GM and Ford products. For example, if you get into tearing down the transmission, you will find a MUCH DIFFERENT tranny than the other manufacturers. An engineering masterpiece.  Chrysler even had the forsight to design an umbilicle line to grease the throwout bearing!

 

By now you may already have pulled the head but if you have not, 86 year old fastners are to be dealt with in a different light.  The metalurgy back in the 30s was different than today so respect for them will be paramount.  As the previous gentleman stated, you want to infuse as much penetrating oil into them as they will take.  Another rule.  Tapping on them produces vibration(s) that helps the penetrant get down into the bolt/nut.  This is not just for the head bolts but for all of the fastners on your Chrysler.  AND patience is key. 

 

When I was working for a restorer in St. Louis, there was an engine out of a Layland Lincoln that was from the 20's.  He would go by every day, spray some more penetrant on the bolts and nuts, and tap them with his hammer.  I learned that this was the proper way to get the bolts to "release" their grip.  Also, as the previous gentleman stated, start by tighening the bolt/nut a little first.  Working back and forth should give you satisfactory results.  There are times that these methods will not give you results.  If it is a nut, and it is in an accessible area, carefully applied heat from a torch can give you favorible results.  Thank goodness I have some asbestos sheeting that is no longer available that I use to "dodge" around the area where I am using my torch.  I think that fiberglass cloth or some other materials are available to do the same. 

 

It is important to remember to tighten/loosen the fastner and once it starts to move, apply more penetrating oil (even though it will smoke as it hits the hot metal) and keep working the nut until you have success.  More than likely, the head bolts (hopefully) will not be as bad.  However, do not be surprised if one does break. It is hard to say if the head has ever been pulled in the past, unless there is paperwork showing a previous repair.  IF you do break a headbolt, the threads are approximately 4" down into the block.  That will require drilling out the broken portion of the bolt then retapping the threads.  I hope that that is not the case as that is almost always left to someone who has experience in that matter.

 

On my 36 Pontiac Master 6, (back in the day) Mechanics regulary pulled heads to lap grind the valves as part of a major tune up (around 10K miles).  With low compression engine values of the day, and the various gasolines that was sold in thoes times, carbon build up was the norm.  My grandfather (a machinest) use to pull the throttle knob on the dash and have the engine running around 2500-3000 RPM.  With the air filter off, he would spray a water mist into the carb.  The steam produced in the combustion chamber would knock off the carbon build up in the combustion chamber and on the valves.  This was part of his maintenance on his Chrysler.  There were a lot of tricks that the old timers use to do back in the day.

 

Good luck with the removal and we will all hope that it goes uneventful.  We will await the post to see how it went.

 

Randy

 

 

[Professor]

All,

 

I checked my parts manual and it indicates that the correct exhaust valve for a C8 is a 621322 (the intake valve is a 621321).  Interestingly enough, it appears that the airstream may use a different exhaust valve part number than does the airflow 8 cylinder.  On the hunt now.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate hearing them.

 

Joe

[Professor]

20 March Update.

 

I found a set of seven exhaust valves for $19 each so I bought all seven.  I have not found any intake valves, valve guides, or seats yet. I have been spraying penetrating oil on all of the nuts and studs and have been tapping them.  I will repeat this daily all next week and remove the head next weekend.

 

Joe

[VW4X4]

2 hours ago, Professor said:

20 March Update.

 

I found a set of seven exhaust valves for $19 each so I bought all seven.  I have not found any intake valves, valve guides, or seats yet. I have been spraying penetrating oil on all of the nuts and studs and have been tapping them.  I will repeat this daily all next week and remove the head next weekend.

 

Joe

Joe,

      You might try a regular auto parts.  If anyone has a listing on the valves, ask them what other vehicle/engines the valves may fit.  This could lead you to finding the valve from people who have purchase 7 and only need one......

         So, we have to wait until next weekend? 

                                                    ERIC

[Professor]

Thanks Eric.  I found the 8th exhaust valve so I have a full set; I will replace all of the exhaust valves and any other valve parts (intake valves, seats, guides) that I can find.  I don’t like doing jobs twice so it seems like decent insurance to replace everything I can find while I am in there.  I am a bit worried about having a damaged seat on the valve that was burned, but I guess I will see next weekend if all goes well.  I am definitely taking this slow so that I do not break a stud if at all possible.  I will do the daily tap and spray, spray and tap until next Saturday when I will start pulling things apart.

 

Joe

 

4 hours ago, VW4X4 said:

Joe,

      You might try a regular auto parts.  If anyone has a listing on the valves, ask them what other vehicle/engines the valves may fit.  This could lead you to finding the valve from people who have purchase 7 and only need one......

         So, we have to wait until next weekend? 

                                                    ERIC

 

[ryan95]

In general, how has most of the engine hardware felt as it came apart? That should be a good predictor of how your head nuts and studs will go. On many of the old machines that I take apart the hardware gently loosens and then seems to glide. It's the feeling that most hardware has that's been around lots of oil in its life. If things have felt crusty, rusty, or popped right before they started turning, then I might take more caution. On any that are stuck, I would use an oxy fuel torch to warm before turning them. In my experience penetrating oils don't loosen stuck hardware, they help tight hardware come apart if it's loose enough to work it back and forth. Is the head held on with nuts on studs? That would also be an advantage since if any nuts are stuck, more than likely the whole stud will back out. I am doubtful that you will have too much trouble getting it apart. Just don't force anything too much.

[Piaras]

The biggest problem is rust build up around the studs holding onto the cylinder head. Once the nuts lift a bit, the additional oil will help lubricate the stud to head.

Pierre

[VW4X4]

6 hours ago, Professor said:

Thanks Eric.  I found the 8th exhaust valve so I have a full set; I will replace all of the exhaust valves and any other valve parts (intake valves, seats, guides) that I can find.  I don’t like doing jobs twice so it seems like decent insurance to replace everything I can find while I am in there.  I am a bit worried about having a damaged seat on the valve that was burned, but I guess I will see next weekend if all goes well.  I am definitely taking this slow so that I do not break a stud if at all possible.  I will do the daily tap and spray, spray and tap until next Saturday when I will start pulling things apart.

 

Joe

 

 

Joe,    I think that breaking a stud has been blown out of proportion here.  I have at least 12 rebuild flathead motors under my belt, maybe a hundred other conventional carbonated engines, and current engines of maybe 50-60. I can't remember ever breaking a stud when removing a head. If I did, I'm sure it was so uneventful, and I would have just removed the remains with a blue wrench and visegrips.  This technique works specially well with large cast iron engines.  The other things is, I'm sure this motor has been apart before, to keep it running over all these years.   You might find the last time it was apart by asking the previous owner.  Could be as recent as 20 years ago. Extremely unlikely its never been apart. Don't wait your time and money on penetrating oil, over the week.  

 

 

ERIC

[Bloo]

As for me, I would do the penetrating oil but, don't worry too much about broken studs until you have one. You probably won't have one.

 

[Randiego]

Joe,

It is better to operate on the side of caution vs. going at it short cutting the proven procedures.  You cannot "over oil" a stud or nut.  IF you find that it is not budging, do not apply more torque.  Apply the heat of a flame and heat the nut/bolt head until it is almost cherry.  Slowly "rock" the nut back an forth to break it loose.  Once it starts moving keep going but keep the torch ready.  As it get cooler, it may  start gripping again.  If so, apply  more heat until it releases again.  Once you have the head off, I would inspect the threads with a magnifying glass to ensure that metal did not go with the nut.  IF so, replace the stud.  If the threads feel rough, I would chase the threads with a tap and clean them up.  Likewise with the nuts. If the nuts come off easily  and there are no "problem children" you can reuse them.

 

In earlier times, you could go to Napa and get quality automotive fastners.  But today, most all of the fastners out there are made in China and I would not trust them to replace the good American fastners, even 80+ year old ones. I would  reuse the nuts and bolts as long as close inspection shows no issues. If you have to replace any of the fastners,  specify (at minimum grade "5")   (I use grade 8).  Grade 5 ASE (I believe) was what the manufacturers speced the engine fastners of the time.   Anyway, I hope that you do not have any problems and that all comes loose without any trauma. 

 

As to the valve seat.  In earlier times, machinists could cut the seat out of the block without removing the engine.  They would have the new seat ready and "shrink it" with dry ice, apply some locktite and tap it in.  Check with your local machine shop to see if they can do that proceedure for you, if you do have a bad valve seat.  Finding an "old head" machinist who knows of this proceedure may be difficult.

Most of them have retired and the new generation do not have that in their " skill set".    

 

We hope for the best for you Joe.  Good luck.