Points and condenser, affordability!

[mrcvs]

I am amazed at how on some of these TV shows, a teens or '20's car is fixed to running condition in short order.  Perhaps money is no object.

 

I have such a car in need of such parts.  Not an incredibly valuable car, but quoted several hundred dollars for such mundane parts.

 

Perhaps you have to pay the piper!  Limited supply.

 

What experiences and solutions to such a problem?  Input desired.

[first64riv]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with "money is no object" statement.  When these guys go on TV, I am sure there is some monetary exchange between the producer and the shop that goes towards the vehicles they are restoring.  Otherwise, I'm not sure they would risk as much as they do (unless they are veterans of the industry).

 

For example, I was watching Big Easy Motors and from what I can tell, the owner of the company has a second business that is unrelated to the auto industry.  So, I suspect the business may float his auto resto business from time to time.

 

Lastly, when these guys are asked to buy cars for others, then money usually is no object. 

 

Chris

[Rusty_OToole]

You should watch some of Jay Leno's Youtube videos. He always gets a laugh out of those shows where they restore a car in a week with time out for a beer bust and a couple of fist fights. Try the one about the 1918 Stutz Bearcat. He describes how it took him 20 years to get it right, 3 or 4 years to restore the car, then he had to tear the engine down to correct problems 3 more times until they got it right.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

About the ignition points. The points themselves are tungsten and will last a long time if cleaned and filed smooth from time to time. I have fixed worn points by rubbing them smooth on a whetstone. Fine wet or dry sandpaper would work too. I would start with a points file then go 600 paper then 1000.

 

If the points are completely shot they can be replaced. I used to have a little bag of points, just the little discs of metal, that could be soldered onto your old points arms. Somehow they got lost years ago, I got them from an electrician friend, I think they were made for electrical relays in industry. If I needed some super rare points I think I would buy an NOS set for a Ford or Chev, cut off the points and solder them onto my old arms.

[JFranklin]

I have seen services that replace just the point contacts, you will need to do some looking or do as Rusty relates. A modern condenser can be substituted if it has similar electronic values. Most any will work but need to balance the erosion/transfer of the point contacts. the manufacturers match the condenser values to the coil being used.

Edited May 30, 2019 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

You know the condenser value is correct when the points do not erode. If the metal burns off one side and builds up on the other the condenser is either too weak or too strong. If you use a different condenser and it won't fit in the distributor put it on the coil, it will work just as well. Millions of motorcycles were made this way. Any condenser of the same value (microfarads) will work, if you use a new mylar condenser get one rated for 600 volts it will last longer.

[1912Staver]

Unless the car is something really odd your quoted several hundred $ sounds very high. There are a few ignition parts suppliers  out there , have you tried at least a couple of them to see if that quote is accurate across all of them ?  Most ignition systems were used on at least a few different cars.  What are you working on ? 

 Many early capacitors are the mica sheet type. Even if you find a NOS example they are very prone to failure . Discretely wire in a modern rolled paper film capacitor . You can always leave the old one mounted if it is important to the appearance of the distributor like on early Delco systems.

 

Greg in Canada

[lump]

My 1923 Hupmobile 4 cylinder used Westinghouse ignition system and components. Decades ago my dad began experimenting with ignition points intended for other vehicles, until he found something which worked. I recall him telling me long ago that he used points out of a 1961 Pontiac 4 cylinder. But after he was gone and the car was suddenly mine, I discovered that he must have replaced the points again...this time with points for an aftermarket Mallory dual-point racing distributor. The points from one side of that distributor fit perfectly. You should be able to test fit lots of different point sets until you find some that will work...at least parts of them. 

 

Most condensers will work, and like Rusty says...if the points burn too quickly, try a different condenser. But in my experience with my Hupp, the first condenser I tried has worked fine for years (keep in mind that the car is not driven thousands of miles each year). 

 

Good luck! 

[mrcvs]

I had posted in the Maxwell section originally and one response and price was high.

 

Where should I look and whom should I contact and what is a realistic price to pay?

[FLYER15015]

For ignition parts, take yours to NAPA or Autozone and ask them to match them. With the latter, bring a lunch.

I got points, condenser, cap, rotor, and coil that way for both my '40 Buick and my '31 Chrysler, but that's as far back as I go.

For all your Ford parts use "Bert's Model A" in Denver. Talk to Steve Becker. He know everything about the '20's /'30's Fords.

 

Mike in Colorado

[1912Staver]

40 minutes ago, mrcvs said:

I had posted in the Maxwell section originally and one response and price was high.

 

Where should I look and whom should I contact and what is a realistic price to pay?

 

Buy an issue of Hemmings and try some of the ignition parts specialists. I doubt your Maxwell uses anything too exotic.  Otherwise do a bit of surfing and find out who is online with obsolete ign. parts. There are people out there with very large stocks of obsolete ign. parts , sometimes OEM but often NORS.  Who makes the Maxwell's ign. ? 

 Some of the really long established venders may not have stepped into the computer age yet. But I think nearly all have.

 

Greg in Canada

[Rusty_OToole]

Mrcvs by keeping your needs a secret you make it hard to help you. Maybe if you told us exactly what make model and year of car you have, and what kind of ignition, someone already knows where to get cheap points.

[1912Staver]

I see from some of the older posts on Maxwell's you may be dealing with an Atwater - Kent system. That may be part of the high price. If it is the one that bolts down like a magneto, Delco built a similar unit that you can probably substitute . Delco parts from the teens are still quite available and much more reasonably priced. Caps can be pricy but most teens caps and rotors are { often around $100.00 }

 

Greg

[mrcvs]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Mrcvs by keeping your needs a secret you make it hard to help you. Maybe if you told us exactly what make model and year of car you have, and what kind of ignition, someone already knows where to get cheap points.

1917 Maxwell Model 25 Touring Car

[mrcvs]

Here is what I need:

[1912Staver]

That looks like one of the mica plate condensers. Any NOS ones will also be suspect.  If I were you I would attempt to fit one of the Delco units. They also use a mica plate condenser but it is external and so more easily substituted with a modern wound foil condenser. 

The way your unit is constructed makes using a more modern condenser very difficult. You could open up your existing condenser and remove the plates , and make sure no grounds exist . Then fit a modern condenser.  It might be worth a try. As others have suggested fitting new contacts to existing point units can be done, and not very expensive. Its mainly Attwater Kent's odd and unique condenser that is the problem and expense.

 

I see a set of points that look very like yours on ebay for $30.00 NORS. Listed for Stearns Hupp, Peerless etc. For type CC and CA. units

 

Greg 

Edited June 1, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

Thank you!!!  Where can I get this?  That is, a Delco unit?

[1912Staver]

I see them from time to time at swap meets. They were intended to replace magneto's when they went bad. As long as your unit attaches from underneath with 2 or 4 bolts you should be able to use the Delco. Note they come in LH and RD rotation just like the magneto's they were to replace. Make sure you get the correct one. I have also seen nearly identical units made by North East.

 

In the mean time I would take a stab at making your existing condenser  electrically inert and wiring in a modern one. It can't hurt to experiment a bit.

 

Greg

Edited June 1, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

What modern one do you recommend?

 

Also, how do I know if it's LH or RD?

Edited June 1, 2019 by mrcvs (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

You might be out of luck using a Delco. I was just looking at a thread by hddennis back in 2008 and he shows some better pictures of the unit. It looks like there is a built in 90 degree bracket on the Maxwell units. It looks like they bolt to the side of the block with horizontal bolts rather than vertical bolts like a mag. You might try to PM hddennis, he might have a better idea . He has posted recently about these units.

 

Greg

Edited June 1, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest]

4 hours ago, mrcvs said:

Also, how do I know if it's LH or RD?

Is the rotation CW or CCW (clockwise or counter-clockwise)

[1912Staver]

As far as a more modern condenser is concerned I would start with something as  close as possible to the sort of engine you are working on. For example a 4 cyl. Jeep from the 1950's or a small industrial Continental 4 cyl. Go far enough back that they use a 6 volt system. Condensers for 1950's engines are modern enough, you just want to get away from the troublesome mica plate type from the early days.

 Most of the 1950's / early 1960's condensers are commonly available and very inexpensive. You may have to experiment a bit to arrive at the  correct MF value but for the time being concentrate on making the system work. Refinements are relatively simple later on.

Looking at your and hddennis's photo's the condenser is a structural part of the distributor so you can't just remove it. It looks like it is used to mount the points as well. You need to ensure it is no longer in the circuit and a potential source for a ground. As well you need to make a connection for the new condenser at the same location as the original . It will take a bit of re- engineering however your system should work reliably afterword. 

[cheezestaak2000]

i guess nobody uses the striker from a matchbook to file points anymore.

[mrcvs]

I used an emory board.

[JFranklin]

27 minutes ago, cheezestaak2000 said:

i guess nobody uses the striker from a matchbook to file points anymore.

Everybody uses BIC lighters nowadays!

[Isaiah]

 Be careful if you do get a new set of points as they can be oxidised in the box and need to be l cleaned.

Also  you can  convert some of the old distributors to electronic and not change the  out side appearance !

I have one made up for my 39 chevy  and tested it in my tester but haven’t put it in the truck as yet.