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REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION


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I bought a #5 to 5C adapter from Grizzley...it's obviously made as a part for one of the Chinese import lathes but as long as the taper is right it makes no difference.  The same thing may be availablein the UK.  You will probably have to make a drawbar but that's not difficult, especially as you've got the measure of internal threading.

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Make sure it is #5. The best way would be to try a MT5 center in it. You might have one if it came with the lathe. You can find the measurements online - I don't know them off the top of my head but I've seen the charts. The part Grizzley sells is part of one of their collet attachment fixtures, one that allows the quick replacement of collets. I've never needed that and find a drawbar works just fine. I did find a 5MT to 5C adapter made in India and offered in Australia... so it certainly seems likely that the same thing is available in the UK. I've been quite satisfied with the Indian-made tool I've bought. They seem to me to be just a bit better finished than the Chinese stuff.

 

I found one on ebay for $99 but I can't copy with this computer so I can't attach the link. I did an ebay search on "collet adapter". That is about what I paid for the one I have.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Not much forward movement on the Humberette. In the mornings I have been cleaning up the 4-jaw chuck that has been sitting around getting rusty even before I got it. All the jaws were seized up with swarf. In the afternoons, when I was too tired with physical work, I have been trying to lean a little about engineering machining tools and what some of the terms used mean. 

 

Joe posted "Make sure it is #5 Morse taper to the inside of the lathe spindle"

 

Having found some measurements of MT5 on the internet I can confirm that it is MT5 on the inside of the head spindle. I have also found out that the nose is L0 and the female thread on the ring and the male thread on the chuck says is it 4-1/2-6 UNS, another new thread term that I have not come across before.

 

The only MT5 to 5C adaptors I have found on eBay are in the USA. Only one of them says that he can ship to the UK via the eBay Global Shipping programme, this works out rather expensive with shipping and import duty. I have messaged the other seller to see if he will ship to the UK.

 

This is the one I have messaged. His buy it now price is $130.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MT5-to-5C-Lathe-Spindle-Collet-Sleeve-1/223631860258?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

This is the one that is $99.99 plus $40 - $45 shipping and import duty.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5C-Collet-Lathe-Spindle-Adapter-Number-5-morse-to-5c-collet-Free-shipping/183916157066?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

The questions I have about this MT5 to 5c adaptor, that fits in the front of the lathe spindle, is: Does nothing hold it in place apart from the pressure that the 5c collet puts on it when it is tightened up with a draw bar?

 

R8-5C-Collet-Dimensionsimage002.jpg.e8ad43a27b319ea8e0f13f01ff52a3a3.jpg

 

The drawbar, that I will have to make, does it screw onto the internal thread or external thread at the back of the collet?

 

I see from the drawing above that the collects have a keyway - what would fit into this keyway, or is it not used with the MT5 to 5c adaptor?

 

Here are a couple of photos of the 4-jaw chuck, after I cleaned it, and before refitting the backing plate back onto the chuck.

 

2164.jpg.2eecdd249d4f3bf64923619820cddeca.jpg

 

2165.jpg.b8c33d1a7e5adcb9b5db5bfef63f2430.jpg

 

 

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I'll take some pictures...

The adapter simply slides into the spindle.The taper will hold it so tight that you will need a "knock out bar" to dislodge it.

You use the external thread on the collet. The internal thread is for various other bits - notably a collet stop. I use mine quite a bit and it's great when you want to make several parts exactly the same length. I don't know off hand what the thread is. I single pointed mine. Later today I'll put together a post on making the parts.

 

You might ask around over there. MT tapers and 5C collets have been around for a long time and I'm sure others in the UK have done this. In any case, whatever the adapter costs, the collets are cheap which more than compensates for using another type of collet.

 

jp

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I don't think there is any such thing as an MT5 collet although there are MT5 collet holders for ER collets. That might be a workable alternative although you can't get square or hex collets for the ER holder and since the MT5 section is solid you can't put long pieces through the spindle or use a collet stop. Even if the 5C setup is more work, in the end it is much more flexible.

 

Here's my drawbar... It is made of 1/8" wall DOM tubing. I made the threaded end separately in order to use 12L14 which threads very nicely. I counter bored the tubing and turned down the end to fit so the inside dimension is uniform. Then I brazed the end to the bar. I also made a knock-out bar with an aluminum end so I could knock the collet adapter out without damaging it. The thread on a 5C is 1.238-20. I don't think taps are made in that size but it they are they'd be very expensive. It's much easier to single point it, even if you have to buy a small threading bar (which is what I did). I've used it lots of times since so it wasn't wasted money. Oh, and by making the end separately you can thread all the way through and avoid the headache of trying to thread up to a blind stop.

 

IMG_1920.thumb.JPG.87698fe8c18857db940a437a23d91bd3.JPG

 

On the hand wheel end I used a roller thrust bearing. This makes a big difference in tightening the collet.

 

IMG_1921.thumb.JPG.f7018af1d8de390ab79e2f587081b342.JPG

 

from the end...

 

IMG_1922.thumb.JPG.f2bc8ab6e8ad76aa7be96d5e17a66136.JPG

 

I've been using these without any problem for several years now.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Many thanks for posting the photos of your drawbar for the 5C collets, the photos and description help a lot. I will make one when I finally manage to purchase the MT5 adapter to 5C collets. I have been spending a few days giving the lathe chucks on the big lathe some much needed care and attention.

 

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I struggled with trying to fit the 4-jaw chuck. I left it overnight, the next morning I had more strength to lift it into position.

 

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Both chucks now cleaned up and working properly.

 

What do you think about these conrods?

 

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With the large conrod on two blocks the same height at each end.

 

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This side is 12 thou higher than the other side. Is it worth trying to twist this straight or may I cause myself more problems?

 

2139.jpg.aed58126cf98088af3837d67afb279ff.jpg

 

Checking the straightness of the rod.

 

2141.thumb.jpg.f611f9d686f44de136414f4efd5bd1f8.jpg

 

Is it worth me trying to improve this difference to get the rod straighter? OK, I know I have spelt 'diferance' wrong on the photo, I can't be bothered to go back and change it!

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My concern would be if both shafts through the bearings are parallel to each other. If they are, I don’t think the 1/16” will bother you. Trying to lose the 1/16 would require bending the rod 1/32” and could throw off the parallel of the ends

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Christech has a good point. The absolutely critical tolerance is that the two bushings are parallel. The rod may have been slightly bent from the beginning but the bushings reamed in a fixture that assured they were in line with each other. I think I'd make a fixture a flat bar with two holes reamed to the inside dimensions of the bushings to check this - though there may be an easier way to do it.

 

You might think of using an engine hoist to put the chuck on the lathe. A hoist of some sort was common with big chucks. I know I hate putting my big chuck on but I don't have room to get a hoist in there.

 

EDIT: In looking at your photos I think that is what you are doing. The rods through the bushings should be parallel. You might be able to correct that by making new bushings or boring the ones you have. A reamer will follow the hole so it isn't a good choice. Maybe an end mill in the milling machine would work but I don't think you have enough material in the old bearings to straighten them and hone the surface.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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2139.jpg.aed58126cf98088af3837d67afb279ff.jpg

 

I don't think the T-square is accurate enough to use for this measurement. The square on the left I would think is much more accurate. I'd use it by itself. So I'd meause the left side gap. Then calcualte, is that equal to 1/2 of the difference, how much narrower is the small end than the big end.

 

 

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Many thanks for your comments. I have been having a good think over the last couple of days. The slight twist of the rod is of no consequence as the piston will still line up with the bore. In measuring the distance between the two shafts, the measurement is the same, to less than 0.001" differnce. I checked this more than 3-times, because I couldn't believe it. As Joe and Christech mention, this is the important measurement, as if the two bushes where out of line they would piston 'on the piss' in the bore. 

 

Joe, you have given me an idea for drilling, reaming or boring the small big end holes of this big end out to there new size of 14mm diameter. I have been wondering how I can clamp the conrod onto the milling machine table accurately. A flat bar with round shafts the diameter of the big end and small end threaded into the flat bar may work OK. I could then bolt the conrod to this bar to hold it in place, using some spacing washers to raise it off the bar, then clamp the bar to the table. As yet I have not used a boring tool on the milling machine. Would it be better to bore the holes out in the conrod, rather than use a drill and reamer? I will need to practise on a bit of scrap first.

 

Thanks for the idea of the engine crane. The problem with using the engine crane is that it is a rather big one, and takes up a lot of room when set up for lifting. It is also harder for me to get the crane out, than lifting the chuck. But; you have given me an idea - I have a couple of unused new electric hoists sitting on the shelf. One of these may be an ideal solution if I can scheme some method of mounting it.

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Another possible solution would be to replace the bushings with new ones. That way the holes would be concentric and you could drill and ream them. A boring tool that small will be interesting. I've never tried boring a hole that small.

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Your idea for a fixture is fine. In fact, it is much like fixtures I have designed myself. But, do not thread the standing rods into the plate. There is no way that can be done to .001 accuracy with the equipment at hand. It would be better to make a plate (I'm guessing here) about 1-1/2" wide with the holes for the standing pins drilled and reamed. The plate itself should be bolted down to the mill table and the milling machine - because the lead screw is accurately calibrated – used to set the distance between the two holes. If yore reaming both ends, you might even make two pins for each hole - one at 14mm and one to match the hole as it is. Then you could locate the the hole to be reamed, remove the pin, and ream it, replace the pin with one of the proper size and do the same on the other end. I might even calculate the exact center and make some sort of swivel so rather than moving the table you could just swing the fixture around. Even if you are off by a few thousandths it will not matter. If you were making multiple rods the critical measurement would be that they are equal - not the distance between the holes to the thousandth. This is overkill for a single rod... I've been thinking in terms of making 4 identical rods but you are on the right track here.

 

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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18 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Another possible solution would be to replace the bushings with new ones.

 

Joe,

 

There are no bushings for this 'small' big end. I have to enlarge these two holes which are either side of the small conrod, from approximately 13mm to 14mm to fit the drill rod that I am going to use to make the small big end pin.

 

2175.jpg.c63cf1fb6d002eed031eafc1346c140b.jpg

 

Before making the jig for mounting the conrod onto the milling machine table for drilling out and reaming the holes I thought it maybe a good idea to check the flatness of the table as I have no idea if it is flat! I found an aluminium block that was flat and measured the thickness in four places. Each measurement was within a thou of each other. I then machined the aluminium block on two sides to see if I had the same result of within 0.001" of each other.

 

2174.jpg.4d0e08109f8ec15543207ba4e359b594.jpg

 

Luckily they were, so I can now assume the table, at least in that area, is flat.

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Here's a thought...

Pin through the bushed hole mounted in the aluminum plate.

Some means of tightening it down... there is room there for a big bolt in the end and a washer. That will insure that the new hole is parallel to the hole in the bushing.

You will have to center the the hole to be reamed under the quill of the mill. I think some sort of tapered center too big to go in. Taper will automatically center on the hole and probably average out any differences. Leave the aluminum mounting plate a tiny bit loose until it's centered like we did with the holes for the screws in the flywheels. I don't know what the difference is between what you have and 14mm but I might go through with an undersized end mill. A 14MM end mill that has been resharpened might be just right, Then ream the hole.

 

jp

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Now that I have the 4-jaw chuck fitted to the big lathe. I thought it maybe a good idea to look for a video to find out why it takes me such a long time to get round bars running true. When I retired I got my first lathe, an old Myford ML7, later replaced with a Super 7. I read some books on machining, but I think only some of the information got retained in my brain! I have tried to paste a link to the video that I found, it was really useful, but I have failed miserably with posting the link!.

 

It is by Tom Clemans. If you search:-  an "easy" way to "dial in" a 4-jaw chuck on a lathe - you should find it.

 

Two cameras were used to see two views of the process which made it easier to understand. After a couple of tries I could adjust the 4-jaw chuck far quicker and more accurately than I had managed previously.

 

On a different note I bought a box of triangular carbide inserts that looked as if they would fit in one of the lathe tool holders I got with this big lathe. These inserts were very cheap on eBay. I tried one on an odd bit of steel that I had been using to try out my 4 jar chuck and was astonished at the finish it gave, when compared to my normal efforts.

 

2176.jpg.95895d7209b6c1c5c902101c539c73a2.jpg

 

It seemed to me as if it cut and polished the surface at the same time.

 

2177.jpg.a16614e522aefe246c7afc4d20453b00.jpg

 

Before mounting the conrod on the milling table, to machined the 'small' big end bush, I had a think about how to drill out the old split pin hole to fit the new spiral pin. In the position it is it is not going to be easy to mount securely. I think I will have to drill from the underside and mount the large machine vice near the edge of the table so the conrod can have the small end pointing downwards. Anyway, I shan't be drilling it out until I have finished the 'small' big end pin.

 

I am going to make an aluminium bush to fit inside the big end bronze bush.

 

2178.jpg.860d2b52bc1ce44d8c621276adcb2111.jpg

 

It will have a hole through the centre to take a 1/2" BSW 'T bolt' and I will test myself by attempting to bore a recess in the aluminium block to accept the aluminium bush. Even if it doesn't work it will have given me some machining practice.

 

1994a.jpg.b6c855ece1190d678e89c9a6af4f2156.jpg

 

I may be able to use one of these machinists jacks to support the other end of the conrod.

 

2179.jpg.feb0ee53e7dbeb71ed7356cbcc28c713.jpg

 

After facing the end and centre drilling for the revolving centre it's time to make a start.

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 3:02 PM, JV Puleo said:

Leave the aluminum mounting plate a tiny bit loose until it's centered like we did with the holes for the screws in the flywheels. I don't know what the difference is between what you have and 14mm but I might go through with an undersized end mill.

 

Joe, I'll have look through the end mills that I have got, it's not a huge selection. I managed to win the auction for the MT5 to 5C adapter that was on eBay in your country and he is posting it to me for a total price of just over $100. Thank you or letting me know about it. When it arrives I will make the drawbar for the collets.

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That isn't all that bad. It would cost that much no matter where you bought it and if the shipping is included is a pretty good deal.

 

13MM is .512 (rounded off

14MM is .551

A 17/32 end mill should be .531 and for "plunge milling" will probably run out about .002 or .003 under the best of circumstances so if you can find a 17/32 end mill that is what I's use. Generally, for reaming, I go 1/64 undersize or 1/32 if I have to.

 

1/64 = .016 and 1/32=.031 so 17/32 should leave you right in the middle...enough to straighten the hole and leave enough for reaming.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Making the support for the larger big end, to support the conrod, while I machine the smaller big end holes.

 

2180.jpg.a0157cbae1af5e4343a17f60832c9262.jpg

 

Before I machined the final cut on the aluminium shaft to fit into the larger of the two big end bushes on the conrod I drilled the centre out to 31/64 . . . .

 

2181.jpg.985a69095e967b848bf69ba303ad3c15.jpg

 

. . . . took the final 2-thou cut and checked the fit on the conrod. To my amazement it fitted perfectly.

 

2183.jpg.9ef3df753de37d6ce2aff03f0c0eeba5.jpg

 

Parted off my 'spacer jig' from the bar and turned it round to face this end. It took me much longer this time to 'dial in' the 'spacer jig' in the 4-jaw chuck, but I got there in the end. I then reamed the centre hole out to 1/2" for the T-headed clamp bolt to go through.

 

2184.jpg.824339a7d9243388dab1ecbf3d968d8e.jpg

 

I checked the T-headed bolt went through hole. It fitted nicely.

 

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It was then over to the milling machine to decide the best way to mount it on the mill table. I was going to bore a hole in the block of aluminium to locate the 'spacer jig', Now, thinking about it again, all I need to do is to machine off an area of the block to take the 'spacer jig', then drill and ream a hole through it for the T-headed fixing bolt. The big end bush should then be parallel with the milling quill when mounted on top of the aluminium block. Although this little job has taken me a lot longer than I envisaged, I have learnt some more 'machining stuff' and improved my accuracy as well.

 

Tomorrow, I might even have it ready for machining the conrod!?

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Overhauling the conrods.

 

Thanks Al for your kind comments.

 

2186.jpg.a81ca2f92e31bf60f8df740c3bd133e4.jpg

 

I milled the 1" thick 'lump' of aluminium flat, ready to drill and ream it for the 1/2" diameter clamping bolt and checked that big end spacer, I made previously, sat flush.

 

2188.jpg.9a00a436f8338eb9928cae57eadf9230.jpg

 

The clamping bolt was tightened up and I placed the shaft I had made to check the big end and small end alignment in the smaller of the two big ends. This was basically a waste of time, but at the time, I thought that if the conrod was not sitting at 90 degrees to the quill, I might be able to see it visually!

 

2189.jpg.0e534cf28406b32410f5a18da44e302f.jpg

 

I also tried the shaft with the secondary conrod in place.

 

2190.jpg.e561d2efe9b72998366be6bfde8890e9.jpg

 

To check if the top and bottom holes for the secondary conrod lined up I found a milling cutter very slightly smaller than the holes and tried this to see if the were in line. They are very slightly out. I think I need to make a shaft to put into the Autolock chuck, to check this a bit more accurately? I mounted the other end on the conrod with a couple of machinists jacks and used another clamp to hold the conrod in position.

 

2191.jpg.a335ae2490c7417aba6b9b6cc1c720de.jpg

 

I am now thinking - "Can I locate this secondary conrod in the correct position and use the 17/32" diameter end mill, that Joe suggested, to machine and ream the two components at the same time?" I will have a think about it. Tomorrow, I will make a block with a couple of vertical shafts to go through both of the small end bushes to hold them parallel to each other. You can see in the photo above I have fitted the secondary conrod the opposite way round to the way it came off the engine. For some unknown reason, It seems to line up better with the main conrod, when it is fitted this way round.

 

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You want the conrod centerline to be parallel to the table, so that guarantees the big end hole are vertical. So I'd measure the width of the big end, and measure the width of the small end. Then take the difference. Then secure the small end to the table at a height equal to the big end height, plus half the difference of the two widths. So that should guarantee the conrod centerline is parallel to the table.

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Thanks for that tip Mike. I had been thinking similar thoughts yesterday evening. I am getting better at thinking through ideas before "diving in where angels fear to tread". Working on original parts that are difficult to find, or virtually impossible to find, has made me take my time. When I first started restoring motorcycles, after I retired, I often had to say to myself - "There is no rush, it can wait until tomorrow, as there is not a customer desperately wanting it back tomorrow". Fifteen years on I still have to remind myself of that occasionally.

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Hi Mike,

 

I am not sure if this is any help but here is a brochure put out by South Bend in regards to boring and

re-babbitting connecting rods. It illustrates some very good ideas for fixtures etc:

 

http://wewilliams.net/docs/1936 - How to Bore Rebabbitted Connecting Rods - Bulletin 6-C.pdf

 

Here is the rig David Greenlees uses with a LeBlond lathe. This image is courtesy his excellent website "The Old Motor"

rodI.thumb.jpg.e4f64907ba1372616a9dc24229f7f30f.jpg

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Terry, Thank you for the link and the photo you posted. I never realised that some of these tools existed. I decided to have a look to see if I could think of some way of mounting the conrod in the lathe to bore out the smaller big end. After reading the article that Terry posted. I was not happy with the alignment that I was getting on the mill.

 

2192.jpg.99662cb8e2c89c6751f1ea1c148d802d.jpg

 

It would be possible if I made some brackets to hold the larger big end in the tool post and the small end at the other end of the cross slide. I had a look at the boring bars I had and none of them went down to that small (14mm). Perhaps I can make a mounting jig for the mill more accurately? While I think about it, I will have a go at making the drawbar for the 5c collets, as the MT5 to 5c adapter arrived yesterday. I'll also have a look today at the electric hoists I have, to see if I can adapt them to make chuck changing easier.

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Ted, I haven't got stuck in a big keg of beer. In fact I have missed out on going to the local pub on a Wednesday night, for the last 4-weeks, to meet up with the other 'Saga Louts'. My breathing has been playing up. The COPD seemed to be getting worse, by the time I had walked the 50 yards to the garage, at the end of the garden, I found I could only do about an hours work before I was totally exhausted. This week, I couldn't even face attempting to try walking to the garage. Yesterday morning, Jane made me go to the doctors. A trainee GP spent about 45 minutes with me, checked me over, gave me an ECG test, as she wanted to rule out that I hadn't had another heart attack, I had one 10-years ago, all was fine on that front. She has put me on a course of steroids, as apparently I have had a COPD exacerbation, as I felt a bit better this morning, I ventured out to the garage. After spending about an hour trying to tidy up, I was knackered again. I wouldn't recommend getting old and decrepit - it's not much fun. :( Hopefully, the steroids will help and I will be back to doing a bit more in the next few days. :)

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Hi mike, I had hoped it was more the beer thing than the health thing but tried to subdue my suspicion it was probably the latter as your a daily poster like Joe and not seeing your posts worried me. It’s best to rest and get your strength back up as I myself am feeling better doing exactly that, after my own crazy episode. We can only do so much before the body puts the brakes on and we need to listen to our bodies. Take care and rest up my friend. It shouldn’t take too long before the steroids start helping the healing process.

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Hi Ted, thanks for your kind words. I would think that your health episode was rather worrying. I'll take your advice and ease back into working. It least has given me some spare time to try and learn a bit more about lathe work by watching some of the videos on the internet. Like most of us interested in old motors I am not very good at sitting about doing nothing!

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Hello Mike,  I also hope that you get back on your feet soon!  You have some good work to get done, so get better and share more updates when you are up to it.  I certainly agree that this getting old thing is not what we all look forward to, AT ALL.  I hope you are spending your quiet time getting all that "in head engineering" completed so when you get back to the shop the gears will be turning!  Good luck we are thinking of you....

Al

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