buick/oldsmobile

[ranchero]

well, there goes oldsmobile; saw the general motors news conference on cnbc this morning.<P>what does this mean for buick, for mercury, for pontiac? what has happened to the middle segment of the us domestic car market? in germany gm sells just opels. in england they sell just vauxhalls. in australia they sell just holdens. but in north america they sell seven domestic lines, six without olds. does gm really need saturn, gmc, pontiac or even buick? does ford need mercury? <P>oldsmobile in the 1970s was the third best selling nameplate. since the demise of the rwd cutlass supreme in '87 (and the similar and very good buick regal in the same year), oldsmobile has been on a steady sales decline. and olds doesn't even have any goofy cars, like buick & pontiac do (rendezvous/aztek). <P>what does this mean for buick? <P>i like buicks & own one. will i be able to buy a new one in the future?

[Centurion]

I had many of the same questions when I saw the news reports about Oldsmobile's demise.<P>I receive some encouragement from the large number of concept cars that Buick has rolled out during recent years. Probably the best news I've heard is the unconfirmed report that Buick will actually produce the LaCrosse, which is a stunning automobile.<P>Perhaps the loss of Oldsmobile will strengthen Buick's sales, as I would expect that many "traditional" Oldsmobile buyers will choose Buick in the future.<P>There are some fundamental questions about the U.S. auto industry that keep nagging at me, however. Regardless of how good current and future Buick and GM cars are, will people buy domestic cars? Are Americans so enamored with BMW's, Hondas, and Toyotas that they will not consider buying U.S.-nameplate cars? American passenger cars have a lackluster image that will be very difficult to overcome. At least among my babyboomer peers, it is simply not fashionable to buy an American car.<P>I love Buicks, and I hope like crazy that GM will build Buicks that we will want to buy. I hope I never have to experience what Oldsmobile enthusiasts must be feeling today.<P>

[BUICK RACER]

Here's the actual press release, and it is a scary inticator of what is up with GM, and I work for them and didn't have a clue that this was coming til I read it today!<P><BR>FOR RELEASE: December 12, 2000 <P>CONTACT(S): <BR>Gus Buenz <BR>(313) 667-2634 <P>General Motors Announces Phase-Out of Oldsmobile <P><BR>Detroit, Mich. - GM announced today that the Oldsmobile Division will be phased out over the next few years. <P>In making the announcement, GM President and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner and Executive Vice President and President North America Ron Zarrella said that despite major investments over the past few years that resulted in critically acclaimed new Oldsmobile products, the division was still unprofitable and its sales volume continued to erode. <P>?We stretched to find profitable ways to further strengthen the Oldsmobile product line, including developing products with our global alliance partners, but in the current environment, there was no workable solution,? said Wagoner. <P>Wagoner added this has been a very difficult and painful decision because of the history of the Oldsmobile division. ?It is the oldest automotive brand in America with a history that is rich with innovation and success stories, including dozens of legendary cars, and over the years it was one of the jewels in the General Motors? crown,? he said. <P>?In recent years, we have made major investments in new products for Oldsmobile ? significant capital and engineering resources ? in an effort to re-position Oldsmobile in the market,? Zarrella said. ?Even with the introduction of several great new products, the brand?s sales and profit performance remain under pressure.? <P>A dramatically changing North American automotive landscape is driving GM to focus its resources even more sharply on growth opportunities and on making the entire brand portfolio more effective in the marketplace. That means a portfolio dominated by innovative products with shorter lifecycles. <P>?I want to assure you that we are very sensitive to the concerns and needs of the Oldsmobile customer,? Zarrella said. ?We will work together with our Oldsmobile dealers to provide for a smooth and orderly business transition.? <P>A call center has been established in Detroit to address dealer questions and capture dealer concerns for resolution. In addition, a transition team will be located in each of the company?s five regions to address dealer concerns and inquiries. A dedicated team will work on an individual basis with all dealers involved to facilitate a smooth and orderly transition. <P>The company will also work with Oldsmobile dealers so those customers continue to receive quality service and parts. If there is any change in Oldsmobile representation in a customer?s area, service and parts will be made available through another GM dealer. <P>There will be several customer care initiatives beginning with a special 1-800 number for Oldsmobile owners. As valued members of the General Motors family, they will have the benefit of the largest and one of the most responsive customer care networks in the industry to address their concerns. <P>In addition, recent Oldsmobile customers will be provided a certificate of at least $1,000 toward the purchase or lease of a new Oldsmobile or other GM vehicles. <P>Regarding Oldsmobile employees, Zarrella said that the dedication exhibited by the Oldsmobile team has been exemplary. ?This is why we will work hard to provide opportunities for these valued employees to stay in the GM family,? said Zarrella. <P>?While this is a difficult decision, we believe that in the long run, it is the right thing to do to increase GM?s competitiveness, profitability and growth, Zarrella said.? <P>MORE ABOUT OLDSMOBILE: <P>Oldsmobile: An Industry Leader for 100 Years<BR>Did You Know . . . <BR>Twelve Significant Oldsmobiles <P>

[Guest John Chapman]

It's just my opinion... but...<P>The German and Japanese produced cars will continue to be a dominant, if not prevailing force in all areas of the automotive lines as long as the products from US producers continue to lag in engineering innovation, fit and finish. Nowhere is this more apparent than the interiors of the large GM products. They just don't show the attention to detail and quality design that buyers in this price range have come to demand.<P>I sincerly hope that the folks in Flint are listening. Olds produced some exquisite automobiles in the last ten years (Aurora and Toronado) but that couldn't overcome the lack of corporate vision and shoddy products on the rest of the line. It's sad, but the current crop of Buicks is pretty lackluster and reflect indifferent attention to detail.<P>Centurion, I'm a boomer, too. I can answer your question. I will buy an American product again when it has the quality that I can get for the same money from Toyota/Lexus. It's not an issue of being enamored (although a BMW 5 series is the most fun I've had dressed since I left Naval aviation) it's an issue of value. I expect my car to have parts that fit, look like somebody cared what they looked like when designed, stay put together for 200K miles with reasonable care AND deliver excellent performance/economy. So far nearly every current US car has fallen short on at least one count and more often several. If Ford can do it with Lincoln LS, Rangers and F-series vehicles, why can't everybody else?<P>Fashionable? It's not fashionable to have a three year old car with little resale value that on average needs major work before 75,000 miles. That's what Detroit is selling. We have a lot of cars in our company garage, and the German and Jap cars are seldom broken. Not so with the US makes (and the one guy that <I>has</I> to have a Jag XJ)<P>You hit the target with your last paragraph.<P>Cheers,<BR>John <BR>(who fondly remembers Pop's white over red '56 Olds 88 Holiday Hardtop). Now <I>that</I> was my grandfather's Oldsmobile!

[Guest]

A truly sad day indeed..I personally love all of the "Alternate GM's"....B-O-P....<BR> I noticed something that I still hate to see going down Auto Row whereever I happen to be...an American make dealer also selling a foreign name...nothing against the foreigners, but It breaks my heart to see John Doe Buick/Toyota or whatever combo you know of.... <BR> My question is in regards to our beloved Olds family...will the division see its centennial??? As I recall Mr. Olds started out in 1903. <BR> As for Olds guys coming over to Buick or Pontiac, I would somberly welcome them as even a Chevrolet buyer is a part of our family...its all GM...lest we forget.<BR> Saturn...hmmmmmmm....a good car in its own right, but it will never ever have the history or innovations of any of the other GM divisions, including both truck lines...<BR> About trucks for a second...why DO they keep GMC....all it essentially is is a rebadged Chev....<BR> The news report on TV did say that GM will keep the name around though...its no consolation though as there is an Olds dealer out here that has been around since the mid-40's....it even has the same sign as way back when....they used to sell AMC's as well.<BR> If GM is gonna shut off Olds' life support, bury them permanently them....remember all of those piece of crap new cars with the model names that essentially made GM in the 60's....LeMans, Caprice...you get the drift.<BR> If GM does keep them around for a while longer in spite of their declining sales...go out with a bang....bring the RWD platform back along with the names that made Oldsmobile such a trusted and beloved name....<BR> I somberly bow my head in the most deepest respect and love to the man who began what became GM...Random Eli Olds.<P> I hope that the sister divisions founding fathers....the Chevrolet bros., David Buick as well as the others are with him in the next life tonight .....these are the unsung heroes of General Motors...<P> Buick will not die...Pontiac...I dunno, I think it would be next if it does happen ever....Chrysler offed Plymouth, Ford could live w/o Mercury.....All you baseball fans are aware that Seattle just A-rod....A commentator mentioned something to the effect of there being no loyalty to the city...he with the most money wins...if your losing money, dump it regardless of the history, as seems the case with Olds......<P> I know this has been long, but I have a heavy heart....a member our our family being laid to rest....Imagine GM w/o Chev.???<P> don55<P> A proud former Olds owner

[Guest]

Americans ARE buying US units just look at Dodge and Jeep, best unit per dealer sales of anyone.They just killed Plymouth for the very same reasons GM killed Olds the name meant old people cars. Ford, they can even kill people and lead in sales of SUVs. FACE IT... It's GM, in 1988 GM had 61% of the 3/4 and 1 ton sales in 1998 it was just over 20%. It's the same in cars. GM must build what people want, get it to the market faster, stand behind it better. if they don't they will find themselves asking congress for a loan. Where is Lee when you need him. To my Olds friends its been a good ride. JIM

[Chris Paulsen]

Justa quick note of reference. Olds did celebrate its centennial, in 1997. I was there with our 1902 Curved Dash. It was great. As far as GM, Ransom E. Olds, left to form REO, before Oldsmobile joined General Motors. As all have said, Oldsmobile will be missed.

[ranchero]

don55 - oldsmobile had its 100th in 1997! it is now 103 years old; but for mercedes it is the oldest running automobile nameplate! <P>i have never owned an oldsmobile, but have had three buicks and a mercury. i like this market segment and the history & pride associated with olds, buick, mercury. i too feel a loss; i now want to go find an olds to join my old buick & ranchero in the garage - maybe a '75 delta convertible or one of those first toronados (what elegant styling!). how 'bout those famous flipper hubcaps from '56 - coveted by customizers for decades to come? the first automatic trans. - oldsmobile. the first assembly line (though crude compared to the way henry ford did it) - oldsmobile. <P>from this vantage, it seems as if the current olds lineup is much more attractive than buick's. the alero is a very nice package. but they never got me to buy one. <P>the mid market is in great jeopardy. i see mercury at risk to ford's captive volvo & mazda 626/millenia. unless something radical happens at buick soon, i don't see gm continuing the division. the mercury marauder & buick lacrosse are fine ideas, but are they going to bring enough customers into the showrooms? at the olds dealer in my town, to find an olds you have to thread your way through nissans, suzukis, cadillacs & gmcs. it is often the case for mercury & buick buyers too.<P>i don't care about plymouth being gone. kill saturn; i don't care about it either. but the loss of olds (my dad had three deltas over the years) strikes hard at the heart of a car nut.

[Guest]

The problem with GM today is not Olds its the fact that there are too many cars they build that have different sheet metal on them but they are all the same underneath. My personal opinion would be to kill chevy. What is there exciting about a chev these days? crapalier, venture, smelibu, impaler(oversized lumina) montecarslow(ugly) all pretty boring cars. Pontiac probably some of the more popular cars right now with the G/A and G/prix the firechicken is more popular than the camaro. The Alero G/A Malibu are all the same car underneath. Sunfire and cavalier same crap but I'd rather work on a sunfire. Venture, Montana/Transport, Silhouette same crap. There is no real diversity except in Buick they apppear to be different in more than sheet metal alone. What can you do when in your domestic cars you get a 2.2l or 2.5 quad 4 in 4 bangers, 6cyls you got the 3.1 3.4 and the 3.8 (only motor with heritage) and the Aurora v6(only new 6 cyl) the 8's you got the caddi north star and the Aurora v8. Once gm started changing everything to fron wheel drive I think that started sound the Death Knoll for originality of our beloved General. I am truly disapointed that they would kill a 103 year old moniker. Well guess I'll have to buy myself a nice piece of property and start growing myself a nice crop of rear wheel drive GM's out there. Thank you for letting me vent maybe I'll have to drip venom into the e-mail slots of Generals Motors.<P>------------------<BR>Lee C.<BR>81 Electra Park Ave (350 original)<BR>83 Electra Park Ave (307 that wont die)

[Dave@Moon]

In 1978 my college roomate drove down to Cannonsburg from our U. if Pittsburgh dorm to see the Yenko Chevrolet dealership (in his 1970 Challenger R/T). {Yenko Chevrolet is <I> the </I> legend in Chevy performance cars.} He wanted to find out if there were any muscle cars for sale there. There were stories during this gas-crunch period of really great cars languishing for want of buyers. Yenko by this time had sold off all of their performance stuff, even the parts. The salesman that met him at the door recognized that this 20 year old was loaded ($) and tried his best to push him into a <B> Honda! </B><P>The times changed for Oldsmobile on that day. Did they ever find out? I doubt it. <P>It has been nearly 30 years now that Toyota, Honda, BMW, Volvo, and any one of a dozen other makes of "imported" cars have been able to drive up next to a GM product at the next light and (with justification) feel they're driving a superior automobile. It is unconscionable that people who buy $30K and $40K cars from our beloved American car companies do not take with that purchase <I> any </I> of the confidence in the product that was justifiably there in 1954! What could you buy in 1954 (at a reasonable price) that in any way was competative with the quality of a GM car? <B> NOTHING! </B> <P>Ooops, sorry, you could still buy a real Hudson or a real Packard in 1954. I guess these are really the makes that Honda and Toyota are supplanting here.<P>I just bought a Saturn with 10K miles for my daily driver. It's not a bad car, if you've never ridden in anything "foriegn" since 1985. We'll see how well it holds up in the long run, but there are several early rattles in it I don't like and the interior trim pieces have all the fit and finish quality of an AMC product in 1975. (The price was <I> very </I> right!)<P>My father switched to Japanese cars in 1980, not an easy thing to do in Pittsburgh especially for a union man. When people would [censored] to him he would always say "Where were you when the Japanese crushed the American television manufacturing industry and threw me out of work 15 years ago?" There are TV's made here now, of course; Sonys--in an old closed Chrysler/VW plant outside Pittsburgh. <P>I mention what happened to the TV industry to show that it can, and probably will get worse. I read in one of the magazines last week that there is a rumor in the industry that Chrysler may have <B> all </B> of its car building activities curtailed by Daimler and become a truck/commercial vehicle manufacturer only in this country. Shocking until you think of what we'd really be loosing (minivans, SUV's and the PT Curiser are technically trucks). Would you really miss the Concorde? The Stratus? The Neon? Probably about as much as you'll miss the Alero, the Intrigue and the Silhoutte. Admit it, you wouldn't even have remembered those names if I hadn't listed them here. (I had to look them up myself.)<P>There is no excuse for the LeSabre to be anything less than an American BMW 5-series. In Europe the 2 brands occupy virtually the same market niche. GM's come a <I> very </I> long way since 1987, in spite of the loss of decent RWD chassis. If the loss of the high end, "import fighter" division within GM doesn't wake these guys up but quick as to how much further they really have to go to stay in the game, maybe 29% of the US market is more than they deserve anyway. <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 12-12-2000).]

[Guest]

What a bummer... another one bites the dust. It has been rumored that Buick was gonna get the axe, but, for the time being Buick gets a pardon.<P>Front wheel drive corporate-cookie-cutter-cars killed my respect for GM; that and a lack of quality control starting in the late Seventies. By the middle Eighties there were damn few vehicles worth driving made by General Motors. Simply because I'm a Buick guy I remember looking at the Grand National and thinking about buying it, but I ended up buying a Ford instead. A Ford. Unbelieveable.<P>My first three cars were a 1966 GTO, a 1964 Wildcat, and a 1966 Triumph TR-4. I drove the 'Cat for nine years. I grew up driving around in a 1964 Riviera, a 1968 Olds 98, and a 1970 Olds Toronado. I was a GM guy. My Dad has owned stock in GM for decades. So why did I buy the Ford? Build quality. Fit and finish were superior to anything the General was bolting together back in the middle Eighties. Mopars were laughable then; how many different model names did they have for the same "K" car platform? Eight? Ten?<P>I ended up trading the Ford for a Honda Accord in 1989. First import I had ever purchased. I still own it. It looks new and drives better than new. It runs like a scalded chicken being chased by a rabid dog. It gets 37 mpg on 87 octane. My trusty Honda mechanic tells me that if I keep the oil and coolant changed the engine will likely see 400,000 miles. That's Volvo territory! Which, by the way, is the OTHER new car I own. 1995 940 Turbo wagon. Fabulous car. Feels like it was carved out of a single billet of high-tech alloy. Solid and tight and terribly quick. I love to give the 5.0 Mustang boyz a surprise every now and then, car seat in the back and all. <P>When GM made the decision in 1968 to put a Chevy inline six into the B-O-P cars, they sold out. It took a few more years, but eventually the individual marques all blended together. The espirit of each marque was gone. What irony it is (for us Buick folks) that the Buick V-6 brushed aside for the Chevy inline in 1968, was the savior of all of General Motors a mere decade later. And that it remains the basis for all of the General's V-6 engines to this day! But it somehow seems fitting too, that the marque Billy Durant started General Motors with in 1903 would end up saving the company 75 years later.<P>I wish the General built something currently that I can relate to, but they don't. It really isn't too big a surprise that Oldsmobile has quit selling. I'm surprised Buick still sells as well as it does. Not even a two-door to choose anymore. Pontiacs look as though the designers cut their teeth working for Hoover or Electrolux. Cadillacs? The Northstar engine is really cool but the cars they go into look like giant slabs of Dial soap. Chevrolets? At least the designers seem to take a risk or two. But as my three-year-old says: BORE - ING! Even the trucks have had their thunder stolen from them by Dodge and Ford. The only car that *might* be worth a look is the Opel-based Catera. But you'd never catch me owning a Cadillac. Not even a 1959 Coupe de Ville.<P>If only Mr. Durant knew what they have done to his company this past couple of decades...<P>Matthew<BR>

[Guest elk93001]

Unfortunately, Buick will probably be next.<BR>Analysts say that there are still too many GM divisions.<BR>This is really GM "smoke and mirrors marketing." They did it when they created Saturn as a "different kind of car company."<BR>Now what does Saturn want... mid-size and SUVs. How does that make them "different" now? If they can't sell their "different" cars, then what is their purpose now? Gm never had a clearcut marketing plan in the 80's when they were getting killed by the imports who were coming up with new divisions (Acura etc.). It seems that they are always behind the curve, just when demand for SUVs is waning a little(due to higher insurance and gas prices) It's a shame that Olds is gone, but don't be suprised if they get rid of Buick (innovative concept cars or not...remember Plymouth, they even brought a concept into production.... Prowler...)

[Guest rlbleeker]

A sad day indeed . My father has driven Oldsmobliles since '75. Guess he'll have to buy a Buick. <P>ranchero, where do you live? I've got a '75 Delta 88 convertible in need of a good home and restoration. I'm in Spokane, Wa.

[ranchero]

rlbleeker - ranchero & riviera convertible live near denver. looked at a '75 lesabre convt. last summer. there is at least one good '75 delta and a '74 also available now in denver. don't much like those gm "scissors" tops - had one in a '72 lesabre; the asc top in the riviera is much better. <P>oldsmobile club national convention next year will be in denver - so says the front page story in today's denver post about the demise of olds. i'll drive the riviera to it and spend the weekend thinking about those cars that i've always liked.

[Guest]

It is indeed sad to see Oldsmobile fade away, but this is business, folks. The law of supply and demand...and people are buying elsewhere because they're getting a better product for their money. And that's the really sad part, Buick could be next, which I'd hate to see, having had about a dozen of them. I think the current Chrysler automobile lineup beats anything offered by GM or Ford. And the quality of product race has been won by the Japanese, hands down. When will U.S. auto makers meet that challenge? I'm curious in the comments above by 67GSCalif, what Ford did you decide to buy in the mid 80's? I had an '87 Park Avenue which was a great car, if you can forgive a new transmission at 63,000 miles and interior components that fell apart at 100K. But it held up better than the '88 T-bird my son had, which parts just seemed to fall off of for no reason. And, rlbleeker, I'm also in Spokane Washington-- how much you want for the Olds ragtop?

[GSMAG]

I see this as a shot in the arm for Buick. I would guess at least 50% of Old's sales have a good chance of being absorbed by Buick. Long term prospects look dim, though. I really believe Buick will be next if GM doesn't get it together. By the way, Vauxhall is closing it's doors in England, GM announced. It isn't just Olds, GM is slashing everywhere. If the arm won't stop bleeding, amputate.

[Guest]

A significant help to Buick's short and long term prospects as at least a brand name came when the Chinese government selected Buick and it's Reagal as the car they wished to have produced by G.M. in China. Part of their decision was reportedly made based upon the Chinese officials memories of the Buicks of pre-revolutionary times. It has subsequently sold well and G.M. has introduced a new small high volume car for this market,the Buick Sail. It would be ironic if the Buick name became well established in the potentially largest market in the world as it became endangered here.

[Gene Brink]

Centurion, J. Chapman, Don, et al - lots of interesting comments, many heart felt. Seems to me that one of the missing elements in GM cars is that they are too much alike for people to perceive a real difference between a Cadillac-Buick-Oldsmobile-Pontiac-Chevy anymore. Engines have become "corporate" (with some exceptions) crossing traditional (now old tradition) boundaries between marques. I used to be able to go into my local machine shop and they could, with a glance, tell I had Buick heads for them to do a valve job on but that does not happen any longer. Sheet metal still looks different but underneath the hood they are not. Couple that with both a real and perceived quality deficit and it isn't hard to see why market share has been lost to imports from across both oceans. It will be tough to do but I am convinced that WHEN BETTER CARS ARE BUILT... people will buy them (both young and old) and hope some real car guys at GM will start making the right decisions so that BUICK will be building them.<P>Gene

[Dave@Moon]

O.K. Here's a question. What the heck are they going to call the engine in the IRL cars? The Mini-Northstar? The Shoulda-Buick? The At-Least-It-Doesn't-Burst-Into-Flames-Anymore-Special? The Almost-a-Caddy? The-Not-Ready-For-NASCAR-Player? (gee, this is kinda fun ) <P>If you think about it, this really <I> is </I> a problem for GM (not to mention Tony George). Here you have an entire racing series based on a discontinued line of motors. Makes you wonder if maybe Buick might get an Aurora clone <I> real </I> quick whether it wants one or not!<p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 12-13-2000).]

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

What a crummy year this has been! Now Olds has suffered an ignominious fate. I read this and think gosh, if I only bought an aurora...but the price is too high on these cars, and it doesn't satisfy my craving for a coupe...which nobody but Cadillac makes a luxury coupe anymore...I came to the conclusion when they stopped making Rivieras that I probably would not buy another GM car. All those divisions and not a single luxury coupe (monte carlo NOT) that I want to pay for...I have to admit, GM has been behind the times since 1972, just competition getting the best of them now. SAd to see you go, Oldsmobile. Maybe buick will get the Aurora engine at least.<P>------------------<BR>Ted Nagel<BR>65 WildcatConvSuperWcat<BR>65 WildcatAutoSuperWcat<BR>65 Wildcat4spdSuperWcat<BR>65 Riviera Wildcat 445<BR>65 Special Wagon 455<BR>70 GS Stage1 4speed<BR>66 Fleetwood Brougham?

[Guest]

For all practical purposes GM quit making automolbiles in 1973 and have been losing market share ever since. By copying the wimpy-Jappo-snail front wheel drive disposable cars they sealed their fate. In 1973 I made $12,000 a year and fuel was 56 cents a gallon. Today I make over $100,000 a year and fuel is $1.56 per gallon. Fuel costs are not an issue. Bring back the 400 horse power, rear wheel drive American automobile or let the entire industry die. I have my collection of 50's,60's, and early 70's big V8 American cars and don't give a hoot for what the industry has regressed to. R.I.P.

[Guest]

It is unfortunate that GM has no loyalty to its divisions. Fine go ahead a drop of Olds, but I will never buy a Saturn, they are junk. They look like Japanese cars, UGLY. If GM wants to up its sales, start another muscle car era. Through big cheap power in a small car with RWD, there you go. But it has to be reliable and tasteful. Also don't bring shame to car names of years ago.If GM just did this it would send those Japenese cars running with their tails between their legs. Another thing each division needs to develop their own engines. People like knowing they drive a buick it's powered by Buick not Chevy, Olds., Pontiac, and so on, and vice versa with the other manufacturers.

[Dave@Moon]

Paul, I don't think your tastes are in line with those of most of the car buying public (neither are many or ours). Yes Saturns look like Japanese cars, in fact in about half the parts books I've looked in since September when I bought the thing I've actually found Saturn listed <I> in the Foriegn Cars section!! </I> <P>However, to most people this is an asset. Japanese cars have never traded on their looks as a group the way American cars have. As a result, many consumers have taken to equating an emphasis on appearence as an indication of poor quality (beauty is only skin deep). Besides, it isn't 1980 anymore. Many Japanese cars are quite handsome, particularly the Hondas and Mazdas.<P>But where I really dissagree is in your call for "cheap" muscle cars to be re-introduced. Lets face it, as a product marketing decision muscle cars were a huge mistake. They created a backlash from the insurance industry, the government, various citizens groups, and many other institutions. You and I think they're wounderful things, but they were never what the doctor ordered for the industry. <P>Besides, there dozens of cars available out there with muscle car like performance today. Mustang GT, Trans Am, Viper, ZL-1, Z-28, etc. The damn <I> Honda Civic </I> has a 0 to 60 time below 9 seconds for crying out loud! <P>Finally, I think the association of American cars with the word "cheap" has gone on long enough. None of the current crop of industry leading imports got there by building "cheap" cars. We already had those, the imports were the alternatives to "cheap".

[Guest]

I agree that GM doesn't make a car I can relate to. I'm 22 and I don't think I will ever buy a new car. It's pre-73 for me. The worst thing about oldsmobile was the name, OLDsmobile. Its just sounds like an old persons car. It just doesn't have the ring of Ford or Honda.<BR>What GM needs to do is what Zora Arkus-Duntov did in 1959 GET THE YOUTH MARKET!!!<BR>All these punks pine over Hondas and think they are fast and they don't even know. If Pontiac makes a two door Grand Prix with the supercharged V-6. Why don't they advertise it to these Honda dorks. Every thing GM makes blows away the Hondas, yet the Hondas sell better. <BR>And another thing, I like how GM gives you so much choice in styling, but the Ford can claim that its F-series is the best selling because GM has GMC and Chevrolet selling the same trucks under different names. GM actually sells more trucks. <P>Tomsriv<p>[This message has been edited by Tomsriv (edited 12-14-2000).]

[Guest]

One thing I wanted to point out is that Chrysler shouldn't be viewed as an American car company. Chrysler is a German car company. There are currently only two American car companies.<P>The Daimler-Benz "merger" with Chrysler was just spin -- in reality, Chrysler was bought out. I believe D-B got 54% compared to Chrysler's 46%, thus making it a German company.<P>By the way, does anyone know if a GM dealer will disable the daytime running lights for me if I demand it as a condition of buying a new GM car? Otherwise my choice of car companies to buy new from is only a single company, Ford. I refuse to buy a car with daytime running lights. Then again I probably won't buy a new car for a while. I am thinking of selling my '95 Firebird and getting a cherry '71 Riviera. <P>Carl

[86 2dr.ltd]

Wow,well no big suprise I thought it was bold when they changed the marque badge.I suppose it wasnt always a rocket.Took brass to discontinue the Toro legacy.A performance bred and tested luxury coupe a real American GT car.These baby boomers trying to run things now are so upset that they can't come up with something breathtaking and truly original that they are killing everything that once was.Now we need self gratifing names like Achieva,Legend,Millinea? Help me!I need a new Relieva!!!!!!<P>I don't understand those of you who say sence the mid 80s' and FWD junk.I believe this era brought alot of Rabbit,Toyota,DatsuNissan people back to some nice comfortable,full-size,economical good looking U.S.cars.If the people at GM didn't make enough on these corporate engine-transmission platforms maybe they should sell their Mansions!Of all the late 80' cars still around I'm seeing H bodies all over the place still the used car lots are loaded they just arent selling because they are old not because they were junk.Their 10 to 14 years old with 150000,200000,250000 miles on them and there still here.<P>I've had Rabbits(great)and HondaCVCC(junk)and D50(Mitsubishi, great) and Toyota 4WD (Excellent).Now we own nothing Foreign.The Buick came after the VW and after having room and comfort I'll never go back to compacts!I'd never cram my daughter into the back seat of a Honda!<P>I believe it was the slab sided,gas guzzling,cheaply built,unreliable,detuned V8 rear wheel drive clinging Detroit of 77' thru 85' that sent people either to the imports for economy or the 60's to early 70's for cars where they actually put some thought into the sheet metal.<P>Those of you who buy new or good original classics look at things differently.You see and shop all the new cars for what is built better or fit of parts and best built for the buck.Then your done with them after 60,000 miles or 4 years or the next new car of your fancy catches you eye. In the $3000.00 used car market you get to see what holds up and you usually drive them till theres nothing left.Then you become an expert at knowing a cars weaknesses and what they can take.<P>There is Delta 88s,LeSabres,Park Aves.,98s,Cutlasses,Regals all over the place.So don't tell me GM that you cant sell Buick,Olds.You just can't stand up to the foot prints your following!!!!!!!!<P> O yea IM MAD IM MAD

[Guest]

why does it have to be olds?????? buick is the one that was slated for doom. oldsmobile will always be in our hearts & minds.buicks where always old peoples cars. olds was for the young at heart. the lord works in mysterious ways. someday olds will rise up again like charley browns pumpkin and be counted. pray for world peace. merry x-mas<BR>Thanks olds kid

[66400]

Maybe the mistake by Oldsmobile was to turn its back on its link with the past, for example GM uses lot of good names from the past such as Chev Imapla, Malibu, Camaro, Pontiac Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, Firebird, Buick LeSabre, Skylark, Regal,GS and Cadillac Seville, Deville, Eldorado, Fleetwood. Olds eliminated all links to its past greatness, no Rockets, 88's, 98's Cutlass's, Starfires, Toronados, 442's and Hurst/Oldsmobiles. Henry

[Guest 65sky]

well you could sence olds demize coming, when was the last time you saw an ad on tv for an olds? buick's got tiger all over the airwaves pitching those taxis cab looking cars and people must be buying them. when gm started the corporate engine thing and all body's look a like except grilles and tail lamps thing, i lost interst in gm cars and i think the engineers lost their competiveness between the divisons also,well lets hope it stops with olds? is their a olds web site with a good message board that's talking about this.<P>------------------<BR>Harle Cordill<BR>65 skylark gran sport 2dr post<BR>71 skylark gs 455<BR>87 lesabre t-type

[Guest 65sky]

well you could sence olds demize coming, when was the last time you saw an ad on tv for an olds? buick's got tiger all over the airwaves pitching those taxis cab looking cars and people must be buying them. when gm started the corporate engine thing and all body's look a like except grilles and tail lamps thing, i lost interst in gm cars and i think the engineers lost their competiveness between the divisons also,well lets hope it stops with olds? is their a olds web site with a good message board that's talking about this.<P>------------------<BR>Harle Cordill<BR>65 skylark gran sport 2dr post<BR>71 skylark gs 455<BR>87 lesabre t-type

[Dave@Moon]

Oldsmobile has had an accross the board incentive program in place since September for (as per Autoweek) all models: No interest <B> & </B> no payments for one year! <I> AND THEY STILL COULDN'T SELL THEM!!! </I><P>In September Autoweek used the term "desperate" to describe the program.<P>It is a simple fact, Oldsmobile always was the more youthful oriented up-market car in the GM fold. Frankly, that was their problem! A young man's car is a wonderful thing, <I> as long as it is still young! </I> The problem with Olds was after 1980 is that it was saddled with GM. No 25 year old is going to go ga-ga over an automobile with styling and engineering that is routed in his grade school years. Neither is he/she going to drop $25K on a car which has been demonstrably inferior (in terms of reliability if nothing else) to it's like priced competition for his/her entire life! <P>And hence you have the situation we have today. Just this month <I> Road & Track </I> published a profile/owner survey of 1995-1999 Aurora buyers. Their major complaints were: 1. horrible resale value; 2. trunk space; and 3. bad build quality. Trunk space you can forgive. Bad resale value is a reflection of all of Old's problems past and present. But to have major build quality issues in your premier model of your engineering centered car line, after a huge "quality image" effort exerted on that model, is unforgivable. <P>The response to the question "Would you buy this car again?" in the Aurora survey was most telling, 67% answered "yes". 67% doesn't sound that bad, does it? Well for a buyer survey result it's horrifying, in fact for <I> Road & Track </I> surveys it was a 21 year low! And there have been some pretty bad cars made in the last 21 years.<P>And before you go counting all the old GM cars languishing on used car lots as evidence of great durability, check their milage. Most GM "brands" (save really only Pontiac) have a demographic appeal today roughly the same as Geritol. They all (with Mercury) have the oldest average buyer in their various niches. It's a plain fact, cars sold to older buyers tend to be used less, better maintained and last longer. <P>Myself, I've burnt up a Mazda, a Dodge Spirit and a Subaru in the same period as my mother-in-law's 1991 Oldsmobile has been around. Of course two of those cars had twice as many miles in their short lives as the Olds thusfar has (guess which one was the slacker!). <P>GM has gone from 60% of the US market to 29% in roughly 25 years. If this were a cola or tissue paper company it wouldn't last 10 more years on a bet! I wonder if the Japanese may be interested in aquiring a few more diversified brands to market like the Europeans and Ford has been doing of late? Hmmm.... <P>(Insert sound of 100,000 automotive enthusiasts' sickening groans, mine included.)

[Guest]

There?s a number of ?classic? enthusiasts posting above who wouldn?t buy a new GM, FoMoCo, Honda, Toyota or anything else.They feel today?s cars all ?look the same? and they claim they?re disgusted because a Chevy has the same platform as a Buick- like they 1) get underneath to see, 2) know the differences (if any) & 3) and like it matters one iota. Not the case. They?re proud if their ?72 Skylark has a unique frame (does it??), but overlook the fact it shares HVAC, glass, brakes, suspension, transmissions & rear axles (and more) with all the other A-bodies. Whoops! Oh, yes, the engine is unique. Like one division?s engines were gold and the rest were crap- right, OK! As far as looking the same: GM has been sharing bodies since...forever! If anyone thinks a (say) ?62 Impala vs/ a ?62 LeSabre looks ?more different? than a ?00 Intrigue vs a ?00 GP, they aren?t seeing the forest for the trees. GM starting widespread platform sharing in 1959- same cowl/firewalls, front floorpans, seats, inner structurals, etc. Back then all 5 division?s full-sizes used all the same rooflines & glass- they were completely indistinquishable from each other above the beltline! <BR>While these guys are certainly entitled to their opinion, it really has no bearing as far as GM of today is concerned. They are pining for a day which won?t return, and even if it does, they will never admit it. Even if Olds? swan dived with a RWD 325HP coupe, they wouldn?t be in line to check one out, their blind preconceived notions for the last 25 yrs of GM (and the next 10 years at least) would keep them at home oggling BMW & Volvo road tests.

[Dave@Moon]

WF59B, once upon a time there were quality differences among the GM Divisions. Check any old Consumer Reports test of the various models. Some of the very items you mention as trivial were in fact quite different among the Divisions. For instance CR in the 1960's used to constantly criticise Pontiac for poor engine durability, and constantly praised Olds for superior body integrity.<P>Yes, 1962 Buicks and Chevy's had the same roof lines and basic body structure. But below the beltline there wasn't a single piece of shared exterior sheet metal, trim or interior panel. In fact the Buick outweighed the Chevy by (depending on model) at least 500 lbs, while providing superior durability (again, check CR) and performance (exotic, expensive motors not withstanding).<P>(Interesting side point, did you know that when Brian Wilson wrote the song "409" after several top ten hits he still couldn't afford a 409! The car noise you hear on the record is Roger Christian's 1959 Impala w/ a 348.)<P>Similar statements could also be made for Olds, Pontiac and Cadillac for 1962 as well. <P>Quite honestly, I've never bought a car new or old w/o looking underneath to see what the chassis is like. That's why even though I'm not a hot-rodder I consider myself a gear-head. And it does matter what you see there, but it matters more how it works and how it lasts. That's where GM has fallen off of late.

[Guest]

Dave, please don't tell me CR is your primary source for the 'truth' here. CR tests every manufactured item under the sun & claims that because they don't accept paid advertising that they are unbiased. BS! I don't accept paid advertising and I have plenty of (automotive) bias's! Every other automotive test publication with advertising must also be biased! CR has droned the same one-sided anti-American car opinions for decades now, they are nothing but biased. Pontiac never had engine durability problems in the 60s-never. They were #3 in sales from '62-70 and kicked @ss in NASCAR until the GM performance ban in '63. No NHTSA recalls either. Since Olds's bodies were made in the same Fisher plants right alongside Pontiacs & Buicks, great differences in body integrity must've been a pro-Olds conspiracy. As for exterior panel sharing, there isn't a single shared panel, trim or interior bit in the '00 example above either--even the rooflines are different. While it's good that you thoroughly check out a new purchase- my point is that knowing that it's also used under another makes' car shouldn't make you any less happy with yours. I don't think the detractors of GM have really looked objectively at their products of the last 5 years.

[ranchero]

olds kid - i am sorry that oldsmobile had to go, but i disagree strongly with your opinion that it should have been buick. buick sells more than oldsmobile. please also note that while oldsmobile felt confident in killing off not only platforms but treasured, historic names (delta 88, cutlass, 98), buick did not do this. though you may not want to buy one, a loyal long term buick customer may still buy a lesabre, a regal, a century or a park avenue. buick seems to have at least tried to maintain some continuity with long term customers. but oldsmobile, for some reason, seems to have said "go elsewhere" to those buyers. they decided to try to try to sell intrigues, auroras & aleros to younger drivers who might possibly be corralled by a salesman when they wander off the honda & toyota lots next door to the olds store. the oldsmobile strategy failed. buick may not last. mercury may not last. but you should recognize that oldsmobile is dead & gone and the responsiblity for that rests with general motors and oldsmobile management. <P>as for a revival of oldsmobile, well probably when the packard dealer reopens and studebakers are made once again in south bend. sorry, i'll miss oldsmobile too, but they blew it big time by using a strategy that buick seems to have avoided up to now. don't get me wrong, there are no new buicks i would consider buying, but i do feel that they have managed in a declining mid-line market much better than olds did.

[Dave@Moon]

1. NHTSA was created in 1970 and didn't even monitor automotive recalls until after the Motor Vehicle Saftey Act of 1972.<P>2. Racing has nothing to do with passenger car durability, Renault dominated F1 for nearly a decade recently and Chrysler has owned NHRA for decades. Nobody ever won a race in a Checker!<P>3. Most Fisher Body plants produced various components for multiple models, that's true. In the 1960's the Divisions did the assembly largely in their own plants.<P>4. A lot of people have been made "less happy" for the last 30 years by increasingly finding out that the car they paid an extra couple of grand for is largely the same thing as the cheapest thing on the lot. And by then they <I> were </I> made side by side in the same plant.<P>5. When GM began sharing drive trains the first engine to go was the Pontiac OHC 6, which had dreadful reliability and warrantee costs (partly because it was such a sophisticated product).<P>My point is, as if it matters anymore, is that the present day proponents and management of GM haven't looked at their products objectively in a lot longer time than 5 years....and still don't. An objective study of any subject wouldn't impune sources of contrary information, it would incorporate and try to explain it.<BR> <BR>But then I don't need to make my point, the market already has. I guess it's <I> "biased" </I> as well.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I used to dislike the Detroit auto industry for ripping of the public as well!Spoke very harshly of Detroit styling and handling and reliability and gas mileage and open the hood and look at the tangle of junk and say all that for how much horsepower?<P>But then I figured they finally came around with a little concern over areodynamics and reliability and finally stoped trying to make that old V-8 meet air requirements and get some H.P. per C.I.<P>I guess they are finally getting into OHC but why is it taking so long(decades)I don't know many motors but I think the Japs.have'nt made a pushrod engine since the early 70's.The Italians since 73,and I don't know about the Porsche,BMW,Renault,Volvo.<P>Now if you send a car with poor fit and a pushrod engine to Road and Track to run against the Imports in the same price range your running a death wish.HELLO!HELLO!HELLO is there anybody in there!The magazine simply states the acceleration and skid pad tests.Then gives their opinion of the construction and interior and your done.Consumers buy the Import.Only the loyalists and patriots buy Detroit, and Detroit prayed upon this.Then as time goes buy and more people have leaky windows and bad transmissions and knocking motors and you loose more patriots.Is this good business?<P>Now the part that really confuses me and makes me a bit of a hypocrite to my previous post is.I've gone to the Olds site and looked at the new line and find it is new with new engines and body designs,suspension and such.Seem to have good H.P. per litre and other decent features so whats the problem?Not good enough to turn the Import loyalists and too different to turn the Detroit loyalists?Are they really that poorly built or just inferior to the competion?<P>If there is a problem with quality is it the engineers or are their hands tied by corporate executives too busy playing golf to see the long term effects of cheapness?No let me guess the executives between holes out on the fareway crying about the Unions killing them and cramping their style?Are the factory workers doing poor jobs?Whats the problem America?Don't tell me the powerful,wealthy,intelligent America can't slow down enough to do a good job!Can't set aside greed to produce something with pride!<P>O well what do I care anyhow!Can't see it from my house!Close enough for government work!Sold to the highest bidder!

[Guest]

there is a point being missed here i think. <P>yes, this is the death of a HISTORIC name in american automobiles, which saddens us for the people it will put out of work and the admission it brings that the united states is involved in a global economy.<P>but more importantly, this will make gm a leaner, more responsive organization, the VERY qualities that made the asian automakers the powerhouses they are today.<P>american car companies (esp gm) have never had the kind of responsiveness to consumer demands, nor the interest in building niche cars that have made their trans-pacific rivals so famous.<P>chrysler with things like the the viper,prowler,pt cruiser is slowly waking up to nostalgia as one kind of niche, and the dropping of olds should help enable gm to make similar gestures toward the overall quality of the remaining divisions, as well as niche cars like the aztek.<P>all this bantering about how bad this is is silly. the olds you know and love died a slow death starting in 77. it just became a brand after that. who cares about the brand if you dont buy the product? thats so damned commercialized american, to defend a product to the death whilst not buying it...<P>do you all defend your choice of soda or beer like this? yes?<P>what if the soda or beer changed its bottle and its taste over a period of years, and you only drank from your reserves of the older formulation. why the hell would you care if the newer poorly made stuff went off the market?<P>the damage done to the gm brands during the 80's was so complete that an interesting looking and good performing series of oldsmobiles in the 90's could not un-do it, especially given their continually lackluster fit and finish.<P>hence, saturn. the fact that it occasionally shows up as a foreign car is an indication of how its quality is viewed versus its gm bretheren. ever notice the olds logo of the 50's was earth with saturns rings around it...<P>allan

[Guest]

DAVE:<BR>1) Just because the NHTSA was incorporated in ?70 in no way means they limit their ?hall monitor? activities to vehicles made since then. In fact they?ve issued recalls for vehicles made as far back as 1959. There just weren?t many recalls in the 60s.<BR>2) Maybe racing has nothing to do with passenger car durability NOW, in the 50s & 60s the FACTORIES built the racing engines largely based on passenger car motors (Max Wedge, Hemi, Super Duty, Thunderbolt, Z-11, Mark IV). As far as Checker goes, no one probably TRIED to race it, however, their V8s were Chevy units from ?65 on up (283, 327, 350- all low-compression).<BR>3) The majority (almost 2/3rds- still researching) of GM plants assembled multiple makes.<BR>4) This one never made any sense. Mercedes/ BMW/ Volvo all build cars that bear the same overall appearance/flavor/demographic. Unlike American makes, these marques have internal price spreads of up to $100000. Why do buyers of US makes find fault in cross-divisional component & platform sharing with price spreads of maybe a fifth that?

[Guest]

Sorry I'm coming off as such a PIA, but...<P>86 2dr.ltd: The Corvette's clean-sheet LS1 is a world-class performer that'll run with or ahead of any motor you could suggest. Of course, it has pushrods- oh well, it must already be obsolete, see, because, uhh.. Toyota doesn't use pushrods. Can you see how obtuse that sounds? It's self-defeating to dismiss an entire corporation's products because their engines don't feature a single component someone happens to favor. <P>As far as the sentiment "...who cares about the brand if you don't buy the product.."; that's a large part of the problem in today's world. Everyone is so concerned about 'me-me-me-me' & only how things around them in the world 'affect me'. 'I don't use that so who cares'? is just how a chemical company feels when they pump toxics into your neighborhood's aquafier. 'We don't drink the water here so who gives a crap!' Nothing wrong with their thinking on that one! <P>Perhaps GM could be the leanest & most responsive if they also discontinued Buick & Pontiac & GMC, then they wouldn't get all flustered & fumble-fingered with sooo many divisions to run. Funny how the big Japanese marques all doubled their division counts in recent years (Acura/Lexus/Infiniti). <P>Funny too about the story in the news this year that Mitshubishi was hiding/covering up thousands & thousands of consumer complaints & quality problems since the MID-1970s RIGHT UP TO TODAY!!! Their cars are apparently as crappy (or worse) as some of you broad-brush the American industry as being! By example, you must allow me to color all the Japanese manufacturers as lying, sneaking, cheating crap peddlers! [Did you just hear my mind snap shut and my blinders snap on? whoo-wee, what fun!]