buick/oldsmobile

[Guest]

martin, the zero pilots were only instructed to crash into american ships later in the war when they did not have enough FUEL to get them home <P><P>------------------<BR>allan<BR>--------------<BR>50 special, 455/th400<BR>64 stude gt hawk, 289/auto<BR>76 poncho GP, 400/th400

[Steve Moskowitz]

Dave not to belabor the point but the $1500 is way, way off base! read the article again or the author is telling you the average dealer profit is $1500 per car which is in the right range. the average new car department needs $1650 on a national average to make a profit. most new car departments are losers these days. interesting to note that chrysler lost 1.2 BILLION this last quarter which makes oldsmobile's 120 mil look like a good deal! you also have to understand part of the accounting. olds may have lost money but did gm? olds is only a marketing arm, they do not manufacture their own cars but "buy" them from gm.....we just recieved the final sales totals for december in the chicago area, most olds dealers did real well! our new car sales were up over 40% from last year! go figure!

[Guest]

Ok, on the subject of profits at a new car dealer: Do you know what percentage of the gross profit a dealship makes is contributed to NEW car sales? How about 3% that is right 3% the rest comes from "add on" packages, parts, service and so on. Now read this again so I don't get a bunch of heat, Out of all the gross profit....3% of that gross profit is from new car sales. <P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.<BR>"Fan of anything that moves human beings"

[86 2dr.ltd]

Thats what I've kinda been talking about oldscarnut.It seems like someones just trying to flex some muscle make their big imprint in history.<P>Dave I really dont know much or read all those magazines but it just doesnt seem to me anybody would build a entire car for only $1500.00.Try to get a paint job for that much just in labor.I once worked Sat. at a Brit. car parts shop and parts were listed as retail being near 100% X cost.We sold below retail but there was still money in it.It seems to me if a mechinic puts 250.00 worth of parts in your car he bills you around 250.00 for the labor.If a house has $40,000 worth of materials in it the builder gets $40,000 for its construction.I know these are gross profits but lets not let the spin doctors spin us.They try to make us dizzy but only make me mad.This reverts to that "does my forehead say ------ on it!"I did want to say when I stated the 6000 cars I was assuming, being how they "ar'nt selling"there was at least that many already sitting on run down Olds parking lots.<P>I bet this has got everybody watching and counting car types.I know I am.Im also paying more attention to whos advertising on the "tube".I just saw a new one last night it wasnt GM,Ford or Chrysler.

[Dave@Moon]

I know this is a little bit silly at this point, especially since <I> I'm </I> the one blaming all the MBA's for the evil in the world, but here it goes.<P>Let's assume that the average car sold by GM <I> does </I> make $1500 for the corporation free and clear. Let's also assume I wasn't crazy when I also read that the average new car (all makes and types, weighted by numbers sold) sold in the U.S.A. sells for $24,000. And let's also assume that after all the rigor-morall that the dealer keeps $2000 per car, paying GM $22,000 to the corporation for the car. Dividing those figures produces an average return for the corporation of 6.82% for manufacturing cars. Ask your local grocer if he'd be happy with that kind of margin (it's roughly 10 times what he makes on his money in the business).<P>Now if anybody's got hard numbers that <I> aren't </I> from the P.R. Dept. of one of the manufacturers, let me know. Regardless, I think it's safe to assume that the M.B.A.'s that run things at GM probably took these kinds of things into account when they decided to begin the process of throwing in the towel on manufacturing cars beginning with Oldsmobile. <P>I'm sure they'll all be happy in their future endeavors with toaster and mining companies.

[Guest]

That $1500 figure seems about right. 1) It probably doesn't include fleet sales , which are heavily discounted. 2) Many of the economy cars are actually sold at a loss, in order to boost the CAFE mileage average. One reason the automakers push the pickup, minivan, and SUV models is not only the profit (they did have lesser safety standards), but also they don't have to count against the CAFE. That is why they've replaced the RWD platforms with trucks and FWD models.

[Dave@Moon]

Actually, Rod, there are CAFE requirements for light trucks as well, and their economy versions are subsidised by the companies as well. Light trucks are designated by weight, the exact number escapes me. If I remember correctly that the F250 counts but the F350 doesn't.<P>The best example of this is the PT Cruiser. <I> Autoweek </I> and <I> Car and Driver </I> both reported that the "car" would have to cost an extra $1000 if the bogus classification of it as a truck were successfully challenged. Since it wasn't, the relative good milage it gets (19 mpg city, actually pretty bad for what amounts to a sub-compact wagon) helps to offset the CAFE hit that Chrysler takes for every absurdly profitable Durango and V10 Ram it sells.

[Guest]

I want to express my sorrow to all GM and Oldsmobile fans for the loss. While I am one of those mentioned who has never owned an Olds but hates to see it go, I respect its heritage and name. I do, however, see it as a very positive step for GM and BUICK in particular. OLDSmobile was charged with the primary role of being the chief import fighting brand by GM. This started with the annihilation of all classic names and designs. Replaced by bulging clones of Chev-Pontiacs and given fancy modern sounding names. (mistake 1)... Then the new cars did not come close to the quality mandate of import cars AND didn't offer unique styling. (mistakes 2 &3) Then the wonderful Aurora wnent from a fabulous new design to a Japanese looking dull hunk of metal...It's no wonder these cars didn't sell. The name OLDSmobile alone will never sell to younger generations... its simple image. Buick has the same problem, BUT has some very positive things going for it.<P>I think the loss of Oldsmobile, while saddening, may put Buick where it needs to be. First are all the Olds loyalists whose best alternative is Buick. This alone will surely boost sales. Next, someone mentioned briefly something GM might do.. I'm sorry I can't find your message again to quote.. but the possibility of an Aurora clone appearing at Buick. This looks like a bad corporation based decision but I think it would be fantastic. Aurora is the only thing I will miss about the current Olds lineup and only Olds I considered buying. It's a stylish car that could be thouroughly Buick-ized and offer a sportier large Buick with a V8.. nice to move to RWD too... THen Buick could re-offer a new Riviera with a V8 like Aurora since they were always cousins in the GM lineup. These two along with the capitalizatino on SUVs with the Rendezvous would surely put Buick financially on the map and out of danger. Then Buick must move towards younger markets. But remember even with the "old person car" image.. there always has to be one.. Olds is gone. Plymouth is gone. Caddy's modernizing and getting younger. Mercury may be gone. This may secure Buick for us and give financing for Bengals and more brilliant Rivieras or roadsters.. Well, it's a dream. I personally would be happy with another brilliant Riviera. I am only 24 and on a third Buick. Proof that Buick can reach us. I started with the fabulous 1992 Riviera, a great present from my parents in X-mas '91.. but it was reviewed as dull and old but I found it very unique and fun.. then bought the 1996 Riviera and finally a 2000 Park Avenue.. All along I've kept the 92 Riv which has 242,000 miles now... my dads honda didn't make that! Well, long opinion hope it sparks some more.. "Drive a real car. Drive in luxury. Drive Buick!"

[Guest]

In addition to 73Electra225's comments about why Pontiac might be axed... and for that matter Buick... I've kept up with the production and sales of GM's "brands." GM's not only my car co. of choice but stock... so anyway,<P>For the first three quarters, up to Sept.30, 2K, OLDSMOBILE moved 225,000 cars. Higher than Saturn and Caddy mind you, but at an operating loss.<P>Now BUICK moved 322,000 cars. That's just under 50% more sales. PONTIAC moved 487,000 cars. At more than double OLDS, and 33% more than BUICK. Now this doesn't show profitability, but at these productions numbers it would be ludicrous to discontinue either of these nameplates. If BUICK captures just 20% of OLDs avg. sales of late it will increase to nearly 400,000 cars. With this volume there should be no doubt. IF GM's operating managers can't find a way to profit on these sales at this volume then GM has some really scary problems. But they won't be solved by axing good respected names. Just organize. Here's praying GM corporates "would really rather drive a buick"<BR>

[Guest]

Just thought you might be interested to know that in Europe they (GM) sell the Oldsmobile Alero as a Chevrolet Alero.<BR>They even kept the Oldsmobile ?emblems? on the car. (the oval with an arrow? through it)<P>Look at <A HREF="http://www.chevroleteurope.com" TARGET=_blank>www.chevroleteurope.com</A> <P>Vegard<BR>Norwegian BCA member<BR>

[Guest]

Got to add a comment on one of the posts above about Chrysler loosing $1.2 billion. They didn't actually loose any money, they made a profit last year. Their revenues were $1.2 billion below EXPECTED income. So, they didn't make as much as they forecast, but they did still make a profit (if I remember right it was just under $500 million). They were not in the red. (Unless of course the acticle I read about this was wrong, but I don't think so).

[Steve Moskowitz]

OK, I KNOW I REALLY NEED TO SHUT UP ON THIS TOPIC BUT.....I DO NOT HAVE ThE TIME TO DIG OUT THE DATA BUT THRU LOTS OF SOURCES THERE IS FACTUAL DATA ON MOST OF THE DOLLAR ISSUES EVERYONE HAS BROUGHT UP. I HAVE WORKED FOR GM AND BEEN A DEALER FOR MANY YEARS AND I CAN GAURANTEE YOU THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PROFIT INVOLVED IN THE MANUFACTURING OF CARS....NOW IF WE WANT TO GET INTO NET-NET PROFIT THAT IS ANOTHER STORY AS THE ACCOUNTANTS REALLY PLAY WITH THIS THING. OLDSMOBILE LOSS OF 120 MILLION HAS BEEN WAY DOWN FROM THE 500 MILLION IT WAS LOSING JUST A FEW YEARS AGO. HOW MUCH MONEY DID OLDSMOBILE REALLY LOSE? NO ONE KNOWS, BUT ONE WONDERS WHETHER THE LOSS WAS INTENTIONAL BY CERTAIN PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN DESIGNS. WHEN THEY BUY THEIR KOREAN CAR COMPANY I AM SURE THEY WILL BE VERY PROUD. AS FAS AS THE 1.2 BILLION CHRYSLER LOSS...IT WAS REPORTER IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. DETROIT NEWS AND THE J.D POWER REPORT A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO. IF MY THREAD HAD NOT BEEN MISREAD THE RESPONDENT WOULD HAVE REALIZED I SAID DURING THE LAST QUARTER, NOT LAST YEAR! ALSO, I AM VERY INVOLVED WITH GM'S CAR COLLECTION AND HAVE BEEN VERUY INSTRUMENTAL IN THE RESTORATION AND PURCHASE OF OLDS CARS AND HAVE ADDED MY TWO SENSE IN WHEN ASKED ABOUT BUICK. I HOPE THAT BUICK DOES IN FACT GET MORE OF OLDSMOBILE BUSINESS BUT I DOUBT IT WILL BE SUBSTANTIAL AS MANY OF OUR CURRENT OWNERS ARE NOT THE TYPICAL PROFILE FOR BUICK. AGAIN, OLDSMOBILE WAS NOT THE ONLY DIVISION IN GENERAL MOTORS THAT LOST A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY LAST YEAR. THINK ABOUT IT...THOSE IN THE POWER AT GM WOULD RATHER BUY DAEWOO THAN TO FIND WAYS TO TAKE HISTORICAL GM DIVISIONS AND MAKE THEM PROFITABLE. OH, BY THE WAY. IF YOU THINK THE AVERAGE NEW CAR DEALER MAKES ON AVERAGE $2000 IN THE NEW CARD DEPARTMENT YOUR NUTS! THOSE FIGURES HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED ANNUALLY BY A VARIETY OF INDUSTRY SOURCES. THEY CAN BE SOMEWHAT COMPLICATED BUT IF THE DATA IS STRICTLY FROM NEW CAR GROSS PROFIT IT IS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS THAN $2000 WITH NEW TRUCKS BEING A BIT BETTER. NOW IF IT IS LEXUS OR MERCEDES YOU ARE ASKING....ANYWAY, I HAVE PROBABLY BELABORED MY POINT WAY TOO MUCH SO I WILL WISH YOU ALL ADIEU AND HOPE THEIR NEVER IS A DAY THAT THIS COLUMN HAS TO TALK ABOUT THE DEMISE OF ANOTHER GM DIVISION.

[ranchero]

oldscarnut - what are you going to do?<P>under the franchise agreement you have with gm you will be entitled to some compensation. will you be looking to get a buick or pontiac outlet? will you be satisfied with having gm simply buy your inventory, parts, tools & signs? do you currently have other lines or were you an exclusive oldsmobile dealership? is it time for you to make a break from gm & go with a daewoo or kia or hyundai or some such? <P>the more i think about it, the more i read, i feel that oldsmobile was hopeless. since 12 december (olds swan song) montgomery ward has given up, office depot and sears announced the closing of many stores. xerox is foundering - stock at a many year low and the company is discouraging the use of copiers in their offices (wall street journal). oldsmobile going is not the only sign of a big change in our culture of marketing stuff. <P>anyway, good luck with your store. hope you can make some satisfactory deal with gm and that you can continue in the business you obviously love. <P>my olds friends can now bring their cars to the orphans car club shows. i'm afraid my riviera might be welcome soon too.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParkAvenue98:<BR><B>For the first three quarters...OLDSMOBILE moved 225,000 cars...BUICK moved 322,000 cars...PONTIAC moved 487,000 cars.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Here's a (troubling) point of reference (also 75% of that year's production): 1977: Pontiac- 637,965. Buick- 633,925. Olds: 851,852!

[Dave@Moon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oldscarnut:<BR><B>...BUT ONE WONDERS WHETHER THE LOSS WAS INTENTIONAL BY CERTAIN PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN DESIGNS. WHEN THEY BUY THEIR KOREAN CAR COMPANY I AM SURE THEY WILL BE VERY PROUD. ...THOSE IN THE POWER AT GM WOULD RATHER BUY DAEWOO THAN TO FIND WAYS TO TAKE HISTORICAL GM DIVISIONS AND MAKE THEM PROFITABLE. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <I> PROUD???? Of Daewoo? After Ford audited the place and decided <B> it </B> didn't want to deal with that kind of debt? </I> <P>Man, we're in trouble.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Hey everybody didnt want to dump the ashes back out of the urn again but,,,,<P>I went to 442.com a site I have'nt been to in a while and they have a thing going there to write to GM if you want to save Olds. I thought maybe with permission they should recieve a copy of this thread and a few others I can think of off hand.However after reading some of the postings they might just decide to through in the hat altogether and sell to the Jap. with the biggest wallet.