How does your club handle "secret" data tag decoding?

[James-Wahl Motors]

I was about to publish a club member's research on how to interpret numbers on the data plate/fender tag of a particular year/model in our club newsletter. This is information not readily available from factory publications, but rather compiled by looking at a number of cars' data plates and extrapolating what numbers on the plate represent by cross-checking options on the cars with existing lists of option codes, etc. Other people have likely done the same thing, but there is no "one-stop" source for it. Now I am getting pushback from the "old guard" of the club, who fear this information could be used to create counterfeit cars. On the one hand, this has happened (though not necessarily with this particular year/model) and the club has been involved as an authority in some cases. I don't know how helpful having this would be to a counterfeiter since the factory build records are available from a couple sources, so if a car showed up with options or colors that didn't match the build record that can be checked. I guess you build a car from just a VIN tag and then get a "correct" data tag for it, though you can tell an original from the readily available repros. To be fair, the club will release this type of information to individual club members in order to authenticate a particular vehicle. So, how does your club handle this sort of information? Thanks

[joe_padavano]

You didn't specify the car company, but as far as GM cars are concerned, those codes are well known through publicly available factory literature.  Anyone who is going to counterfeit a car already knows this info.  That ship has sailed. 

 

People really worry about the craziest things.  Why do people now block out their license plate when posting a photo of the car for sale?  Do they cover the plate when they drive the car on the street? 

[Frantz]

I'd also say it's much ado about nothing. Anything of value will have issues with fakes. Honestly what is more likely though, that someone will use the data to steer clear of a fake, or use it to make a fake? Normally such data is available through make/model specific web sites. If I had access to something a regional member produced and was okay with sharing I'd use it to help generate traffic on the website and help make the site a resource for the hobby. Also... whats better for the purpose of the AACA? AACA doesn't have rules against cloning if it's done proper. History isn't always perfect, but such info helps make it close.

[lump]

Many years ago I was President of the United States Camaro Club. During that time, the GM Norwood Assembly Plant near Cincinnati, Ohio was shut down forever (1985). It was the factory where the final GM F-Bodies were built.  I arranged to hold our last 3 or 4 years of our Camaro Nationals events in their parking lot, and GM execs had allowed us to tour the facility and watch Camaros being built on the line. 

 

LOTS of people had been there before me, pleading with old employees for info on how to interpret the old Fisher Body Codes, which were found on 1967 and older GM cars (before Fisher Body was absorbed into a larger group, which now included Chevrolet). But the same older employees told me they couldn't help me, just like they hadn't been able to help people who had asked before me. 

 

Then one day we got notice that GM was shutting down the plant forever. The general manager (who had grown sympathetic to our cause of preserving Camaro history) invited me down there (I live about 1.5 hours away). He gave me the opportunity to meet with all the old employees who had been there back in the 1960's, and to see if they could help me to preserve any history. I went there every business day for almost two weeks, carrying home all kinds of books and data. Those employees were now "lame ducks" who had only two weeks left to work before the plant would be closed. They were happy to sit and talk with me, and share their memories and experiences. 

 

ANYWAY, one day during my visit, the executive who was escorting me around got a phone call, asking for ME to come to someone's office. The same two guys who had assured me there was NO WAY to help me interpret those old Fisher Body codes were in the process of emptying desks and file cabinets, and literally moving furniture out. Lo and behold, behind one cabinet was an copy of a 1966 or 67 booklet about an upcoming labor agreement, and on the back side of that were some old crib notes which one of those men had taken while sitting in a FISHER BODY meeting where the new body codes for 1967 were being discussed. I was ecstatic.  

 

I returned to my office, and added this data to the hundreds of Trim Tag data we had received from our membership survey, and EUREKA, we had it. 

 

We decided not to publish the data, to avoid assisting counterfeiters. We would only interpret the trim tag of any of our members if they asked. They would give us the code letters, and we gave them the answers. But in the end, this proved useless in protecting or containing the info. People quickly figured out that, if enough people joined the club and asked for decoding of their trim tags, they would be able to compare notes and figure out the codes. Within a year or two, the cat was totally out of the bag. 

 

[lump]

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. But when you think about it, what were we to do? We had the information that our members wanted and needed in order to properly restore their Camaros. Would it have been right to  refuse to help them, just to "protect" the information? I don't think so. 

 

In the end, with the advent of the internet, hiding such information is virtually impossible. Even if you try to withhold it from everyone (then...what GOOD is it?), they can figure it out eventually. For example, before the old Fisher Body Labor booklet was found with crib notes on back, we had already published survey forms in our CAMARO CORRAL magazine, asking members with 1967 Camaros to record the codes on their trim tags, and the fill out the survey form telling us which options their car had originally, and how certain they were that these options really were genuine OEM factory installed. There was a place where we asked for comments of explanation. Then, when particular tags were really interesting, I would personally call that member, and spend some time getting a feel for their car, and for them as a person. After this, I applied a code to their survey for credibility. We were finally beginning to crack some of the codes when that "Rosetta Stone" labor terms booklet was found. And that was before the internet made such things exponentially more easy. 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by lump (see edit history)

[lump]

I used to tell my Camaro club members that, the best way to protect the integrity of their special car's true identity was to start assembling an "album" of documentation. All factory documentation, such as "Protecto-Plates," Trim Tags, VIN tags, and even the special rivets are being reproduced in very good quality. And they're readily available. (check on eBay. I saw all those things last time I looked, about a year ago). Yet personal testimony and other artifacts can be very solid proof, when several components are added together. 

 

For example, if you begin tracing the ownership history of your car (obviously, this information is mostly related to cars of the 1950's through the 1970's), you may be able to get a notarized personal note from several previous owners, describing the car at the time when they owned it. You might even find someone who has an old repair receipt, etc, hidden away somewhere. Sometimes folks get lucky, and find a previous owner who has photos of himself or family members standing near the car decades ago. The point is to try and assemble all the documentation you can possibly find, just like a detective would do when working an important legal case. 

 

Using methods like this, I was able to guide several members back in the day all the way to the door of the dealership that sold the car when new. 

 

Having said all this, I wouldn't be too confident of being able to keep that info hidden for very long. And you must decide for yourself which does the most harm to MOST people who love your kind of collector car: Will it be more harmful to make the information public, where counterfeiters can find it?  Or would it be more harmful to withhold it from people who really need it? 

 

Good luck. Hope you figure out the best choice. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by lump (see edit history)

[padgett]

Back in the day LeMans and Tempests that magically became GTOs were commonplace and while some of the information was on the data plate (particularly the "5"s), there were a lot of differences in the equipment on a GTO, particularly interesting ones. Today PHS can provide compete information on how a particular car was built but that does not mean some do not try.

 

My point is that the data plate is not that magical and is just one piece of provenance. There is no reason to keep the codes (which sometimes varied by assembly plant) secret.

Edited July 25, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

14 hours ago, padgett said:

Back in the day LeMans and Tempests that magically became GTOs were commonplace...

 

Today, there are so many GTO's and Cutlass 4-4-2's

that, as nice as those cars may be, I'd rather see the

many other models than those often-seen muscle cars.

 

I believe car clubs should be gathering and disseminating

information, so any codes and other specifics should be

made widely available.  Car clubs don't exist to keep information

"secret," but instead help restorers and owners understand their cars better.

[padgett]

Part of the reason I got out of judging was because owners often got incensed at me for pointing out errors even blatant ones like a gauge cluster in the rong dash hole.

 

Personally agree that the information is going to get disclosed so no reason to keep secret particularly when discussed on forums (but doesn't mean I am going to discuss everything...)

 

One of the more interesting elements of GM (at least Pontiac) in the 60's was that they used 80 column punch cards for the orders (aka billing cards) and some options used the same holes so never could be ordered together.

[John348]

13 minutes ago, padgett said:

Part of the reason I got out of judging was because owners often got incensed at me for pointing out errors even blatant ones like a gauge cluster in the rong dash hole.

 

Personally agree that the information is going to get disclosed so no reason to keep secret particularly when discussed on forums (but doesn't mean I am going to discuss everything...)

 

One of the more interesting elements of GM (at least Pontiac) in the 60's was that they used 80 column punch cards for the orders (aka billing cards) and some options used the same holes so never could be ordered together.

 

Confused by your answer, do not really see how it applies to the question of "how does your club handle it"

 

As a National Officer in a club myself i would be hesitant for the club  to publish such information, how do you know it is correct? how do you know there is not a personal vendetta toward another member?   What if the information is incorrect? In order to protect the club legally I recommend that the club avoid printing it

Edited July 26, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[MarrsCars]

Revealing this sort of info actually helps deter counterfeits as it educates a large group of enthusiasts on what to look for, sometimes even the type of stamping/engraving/embossing, placement, method of attachment of a plate, etc., are all better clues to originality than simply "matching" the correct number.

[Paul Dobbin]

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Back to the information compiled on data plate #'s etc.   Why not write an article with photographs and explain it all.  Submit it to the publication that supports the marque that you are writing about.  That way its shared in the public domain'and many people can use it.

Some publications will even pay for good informational articles.  I find it a lot easier to get published when I offer the article for FREE.

[padgett]

Sorry but as I mentioned, data plates are interesting but are not an end-all. They varied by model year, car line, and even assembly plant so a comprehensive listing is impossible.

 

Further the issue was counterfeiting. I was just pointing out that in judging we used many different sources including option availability to determine if a car was made the way the owner claimed & frankly I always considered the data plate of limited value since can be repopped (and as mentioned in the first post,could often spot window stickers and under hood decals as  such by the font used).

 

After all a data plate will not tell you that a 120 mph speedo in an early production '72 GTO is rong.

 

So personally have no problem with publishing such information with a disclaimer like "the information provided was the result of study of a limited & regional selection of (data plates or ???) and as such cannot be guaranteed to be accurate in all cases. It is presented as a guideline only and multiple sources should be consulted to determine how a car was built." and would suggest you run this by a lawyer for their opinion first. (IANAL)

[JZRIV]

Interesting topic. Probably too far reaching and too variable to paint with a one brush answer but here is one perspective.

 

When you see what a person with a lot of money can do to clone tags for a cloned high interest model intentionally done for financial gain, you may be more inclined to not make public hard found data on plate codes that would help vet out a cloned car being sold as authentic. Clubs that retain this info and distribute it on an as-needed basis help protect the hobby from the money hungry.

Yes there are the common codes more widely known but then there variables across some models and years where maybe GM used a code for a short time but at the last minute the modification was nixed and no one ever figured out what it meant because the code was still on tag but the feature it represented did not exist. Some models even from 60s do not have a cars build history available by the VIN or build sheets placed in cars making the vetting process much more difficult.

 

Say a dues paying club member spent years going to meets (club sponsored), gathering data, and entering it in a database to help figure out what some codes meant. This person confided with a trusted few other dedicated "club" members and together with their own data and data obtained from GM, they validated unknown codes. They share this info with other club members on an as-requested basis. Why should the club member's hard work be listed on the net or other publication that could end up on the net so freeloaders who have no intention or desire to join a club that supports the hobby be able to benefit for doing NOTHING to support hobby? If someone has a genuine interest in learning the hard fought unpublished details of their model, they can pay $30-$40 for membership and find out.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[padgett]

Microcash is still in the planning stage though Amazon is making a good start. OTOH by sharing information with others we all benefited. In fact when you look at all of the information that is available, it is from people sharing their experiences.

 

Even with all of the information that is available (and have known cases where a particular option mix was only available at one assembly plant so any car having it had to be built at that plant.) you still have to know how to ask the right question. Experts rarely bother with those who can't.

 

Have known some extreme cases but fortunately am not responsible for saving the world any more.

 

ps have yet to see a cloned tag that was done properly. Of course if it was, how would I know ?

All comes back to what providence really requires and it is not just a data plate.