My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[Terry Harper]

51 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Here is the chart Terry's student, Marshall, worked up. Notice that none of the measurements are exact. I suspect much of this is the result of wear so this is a case where we have to guess as to what was intended. However, working with figures this accurate takes a lot of the "luck" out of the equation.

 

Hello Joe,

I am glad we could be of help! I was a bit surprised at the amount of deviation. That is one of the problems with reverse engineering. We have parts that were machined to an unknown tolerance (hopefully they used a tolerance!) with wear added into the mix. To add to the problem the new part has to interface with an old part which also has wear and an unknown tolerance. I think in this case a test bar is exactly the way to go. 

 

I suspect the final product will require a bit of careful hand fitting - something that was so common back when this vehicle was built yet nearly a lost art today.

 

Fun and challenging project! We will get the part you sent us to scan packaged-up and on its way back to you!

 

 

Best regards,

Terry

Edited March 7, 2023 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Based on my observations, this company was very liberal in their interpretation of "tolerances." Fortunately, there does not seem to be much, if any wear on the slots in the hub. This may well be because it really was a "parts car" or, what Ed has often called "floor sweepings." That is a very apt description of what I started with. So, we have no way of knowing if the crosses actually went with the hubs I have. I certainly didn't expect the torque tube to be from a completely different car but it must have been. It's also an advantage that the tapers are intended to lock into the slots, pressed in with the hub caps so If the caps are good, and they will be, and the tapers are very close, I don't foresee a problem. Without any movement there should be no measurable wear. If you ran the car with the hub caps loose I bet you'd get all sorts of wear. That's not likely to happen again in my lifetime or in that of the next enthusiast that owns it.

 

I'll start on the test piece tomorrow. The plan is to make the bottom of the taper about .004 larger than the average. As it is, the good cross does not go to the bottom of the slot and I have no idea if it was supposed to. I suspect not because a little free space would allow adjustment for wear. I hope that is enough but we'll see. If it is slightly too large I'll get a new, high quality square file and grind two of the sides smooth so I can file the taper without damaging it at the base.

Edited March 7, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Moving on with the test cross...I made another arbor for the work piece, this one with an extension that goes into the center of the chuck. The idea being to hold the piece as firmly as possible.

 

 

I mounted the piece and then checked it alignment with an indicator attached to the column of the mill. It was out less than .0005 which is probably about as good as I can do with this old mill.

 

 

Then the piece was centered under the spindle. Thbis little centering tool isn't all that great but it does get you within a few thousandths. I was very careful with it but I wish I could find a high quality took that works the same way.

 

 

Mu calculations call for using a 9/16 end mill...this is based on the width of the tapered section at its widest point. This is the reason it was essential to make the thickness of the blanks identical.

 

 

The entire piece was then offset .875...the actual calculated measurement is .874 so I added .001. At the most this will make the taper a tiny bit too wide but I can address that. I can't do anything except start over if it's too narrow. I then started milling to a depth of .200. The finished depth will be slightly greater but I'm leaving that for when the tapers are milled.

 

 

When each one was done I made 10 turns with the dividing head. B&S dividing heads work on a 40:1 ratio so 10 turns is exactly 90-degrees.

 

 

When all four were done I took the piece off the arbor and turned it around. The key should make it go back on in the same place and the offset, since it hasn't been touched, should be the same.

 

 

I then milled the first of the other sides...but by now it was after 5 and I have a major job at home to attend to so I'll go do that and come back to this tomorrow.

 

 

I have a figure for the width of this boss...it will be interesting to see how close I've come when I finish the milling.

Edited March 7, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I was going to post some photos of today's work but it looks as if I've been "upgraded" (in the most sarcastic sense imaginable) out of existence again. Suffice it to say that the prototype cross vindicated itself today when I discovered I'm miss-calculated how to cut the taper. It looks as if I'll have to make another fixture...

[weathered1]

Sorry to hear that, I was impressed with your work yesterday!

[JV Puleo]

Thanks...it isn't a major setback. This is exactly why I decided to make a prototype. I simply don't have enough experience to anticipate everything, especially in a case like this where several of the operations are things I've never done before. The only real headache is that I have to wait for the materials. It is available locally, for twice the price but I'd rather wait than pay!

[JV Puleo]

I emailed myself yesterdays pictures so I could do this at home...

 

The first step was to finish the four cross ends...cut straight. I had calculated the finished width as 1.185. They76 came out 1.165 which suggests a math error on my part. In any case, it makes no difference because this is the widest dimension based on the total thickness of the piece and almost half of the large end will eventually be milled off. 

 

 

Then I set the table over to 3-degrees. This is a universal mill so the table swivels. The base is very large and marked in 1/2-degree increments so I am guessing it is probably more accurate than anything I could do. Also, I don't think it was ever used much as there is virtually no wear on the the internal parts.

 

 

I now had to find the edges of each "boss". To do this I cut a piece of 9/16 ground bar...the diameter of the end mill I'm using.

 

 

That went in a collet and I put Dychem on the end.

 

 

This is very carefully moved up against the work piece until it just scratches the red coloring, at which point I should be at the edge. I did this twice, first from the end moving the table in 1/2 the diameter of the bar, and then against the edge of the boss moving it in .060. The movements were done with an indicator rather than the dials on the mill which should make them just about perfect.

 

 

Then I raised the table .025 and took a cut...and discovered I'd made an error. The cut came out parallel to the edge rather than  at a taper and I realized that in order to to this the table has to be set at an angle but the work piece (along with the dividing head holding it) has to move straight from left to right. I've worked out a solution to this but need a piece of aluminum 1" x 3" x 20" to make a swiveling base for the work piece. I ordered that and today worked on a few of the small parts I'll also need. First is the center pivot...this 1/2" shoulder bolt. To secure it I modified a "T" nut by sleeving it down to 3/8-16 form 1/2-13.

 

The sleeve (made from a brass bolt) was screwed in with Locktite...

 

 

And both sides faced off.

 

 

These pi8eces will be adjusters. I will have to attach the swiveling base to the table and, when the table is turned to 3-degrees, move the base back to zero. Rather than  try to do that by hand and rubber hammer I'll use two fine thread thumb screws.

 

 

They aren't finished but go into the slots in the mill table.

 

[JV Puleo]

I am reasonably confident this taper milling attachment is going to work very well. Today I went on with the adjusters... First putting center holes where they were needed.

 

 

The the hole for the bolt that will hold it to the table was drilled.

 

 

And the hole for adjuster screw drilled and tapped.

 

 

Then I went back to the mill and relieved one side 1/4". This will allow a little more adjustment. The 1/4-28 tap I used wasn't quite long enough to go completely through the piece so this takes care of that as well.

 

 

This is how they will work.
The dividing head will be mounted on a 1" thick x 3" wide bar that will swivel on the center slot in the table. The screws mounted in these adjusters will allow me to finally set an angle using the  really neat "right triangle" method that forum member Mike Macartney showed us. If carefully done, I think this may be more accurate than using the universal table on the mill.

 

 

Since it was only 3:45 when I finished this went on to a second fixture I'll be needing, this one to hole the brake drums. I'm going to have to have them spray welded, at least for the internal brake and will have to re-cut the inside. As you can see (it isn't the best picture) there is a good amount of wear. Oddly, mostly on the inside. When I did this years ago to my 1910 REO most of the wear was on the external surface so whoever used this car apparently didn't use the hand brake very much.

 

 

This is an 8" piece of aluminum bar.

 

 

I started by facing it off and reaming a 1-1/2" hole in the center.

 

 

More to come...I have to go away for a few days at the end of next week and have a lot to prepare before I leave so I may not get into the shop again until Monday.

Edited March 11, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

8" is a big chunk of aluminum! 

 

I like the "taper attachment" you're making, that's a neat trick.

[JV Puleo]

With the back side faced off I put the brake drum fixture on an expanding mandrel and took a light cut off the OD. This is to make the OD and the ID concentric so I will have something to indicate when I mount it in the chuck.

 

 

Then the front face was turned flat...

 

 

And I turned the center, about 3/8" deep, to the center size of the drum. The holes in the drums aren't identical but they are very close. I made it a tiny bit tight on the smaller one and it fit the larger one easily.

 

 

With that done, I marked one of the bolt holes. The original bolts are 7/16" but I will use 3/8" here. They only serve to hold it against the fixture as it is centered on the projection.

 

 

And into the mill on the rotary table to drill center holes.

 

 

This fixture will allow me to turn both the inside and outside surfaces of the drums. I have no way of knowing if the drums are actually round until I get them up on the lathe. The OD does not look as if it needs to be turned but I won't be certain until I've indicated it. These are pressed steel drums. The inside will have to be spray welded and, if they are out of round, the outside will have to be done as well,

[alsfarms]

Nice work.......

 

[JV Puleo]

Using the rotary table to put in the center holes for the attaching bolts.

 

 

Then  I moved it over to the drill press to drill and tap the holes 3/8-16 after which I put it back on the lathe and attached a drum.

 

 

I ran it with a little sandpaper on the inside to take the rust off...showing the wear on this surface much better. These really aren't all that bad. I've seen much worse and there is plenty of metal to spray weld to.

 

 

I also indicated the outside surface. It runs out about .012. I'm undecided about what to do about this. I think that is an acceptable amount of runout considering the external brakes are metal bands with brake lining. On the other hand, I could have the outside welded as well and get the runout down to almost zero...but would the weld be too thin? I'll have to think about that.

 

 

Cleaned up some it's clear that the drums were originally painted black.

 

[weathered1]

Joe, Does your car a brake band on the outside and shoes on the inside? I have never seen a setup like this.

Thanks

[Gary_Ash]

Joe, too much welding on the drums is going to turn them into potato chips from the stress.  Maybe just the inside.

[JV Puleo]

Good point Gary...I had not thought of that.

There is a band on the outside and something like shoes...actually, more a much stouter band on the inside. It is a conventional set up on brass cars. My 1910 REO was the same.

 

Should they be stress relieved afterward?

I had this done to the REO drums many years ago and it worked a charm. I just figured out that the place that did it is still in business too...I was searching on "spray welding" when I should have used "metal spraying." I may even check them out tomorrow if I have time.

Edited March 15, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

If you are wondering where I went, I've been away since last Friday...first in Baltimore and now in Philadelphia where I'm going to do some research work at the National Archives regional office. I'll be back to the car on Thursday.

[JV Puleo]

Unfortunately, the piece of aluminum I ordered before I went away still hasn't come in so, once again, I'm stuck waiting for materials. I had very little to do today because with three projects in the works simultaneously I do not want to start on another... I did clean up the second brake drum and went out to find the spray welding place. Despite coming up in my internet search, the place was locked up so I guess they really are out of business.

 

 

Then, because it was still only 3:30, I turned this piece of aluminum down to 4-1/2". This will be an aluminum hub cap wrench which shouldn't mark the caps when it comes time to screw them on...and again, I discovered that I don't have the 4-1/2" diameter cutter I need to finish it...

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Can you post some info on your expanding collet/mandrel/arbor?  Do you have a set of them?  How much do they expand?

[JV Puleo]

Sure...I'll do it tomorrow.

[JV Puleo]

To answer Jeff's question...there are two types of expanding arbor. The first picture shows the ones I usually use, made by the Breakheart Machine Company. They run from 1/4" to 2" in two sets. I have found that below 3/4" they aren't all that useful because the interface surface area is so small that you have to take very light cuts to keep the piece from slipping. The black arbors with them are an "import" set. Those are not as good though primarily because the socket head screws that expand the collet are too soft. Still, I have used them and I have also modified a couple for holes that were not in the Breakheart set.

 

 

The other type has an integral collet and expands when you tighten the draw bar. These can be found in much larger sizes and work well although they are very expensive. If I can 't find the size I want I look for one slightly bigger and turn it down to fit the job. They are also available as "blanks" (the one in the front is one of these) which are intended to be turned to whatever size is needed.

 

 

Since my aluminum still hasn't arrived I ran some errands today and then took apart one of the three Stromberg M-3 carburetors I have. I'm hoping I have enough parts to make one good one although it's clear that I'll have to make a few parts as well since the shafts are worn on  all of them. I managed to get this one almost completely apart without losing or breaking anything, though I don't think that will be the case with the others.

 

 

I admit I'm stumped by the last part, the venturi. I can't see how it comes out. I asked Carbking what he thought the venturi size should be and he guessed 7/8 or 15/16 and this one is larger than that. I may have a usable one in one of the other bodies...or I may have to make one but I'll have to figure out how to get it out first.

 

[Duey C]

The large Venturi is about 1-1/16 on the inside. The small Venturi below has a 7/8 hex and should readily unscrew. The large Venturi might be a real bugger to remove without destroying it. I believe they were simply pushed in the carb's bore then secured with the two screws. They've grown since then.

I bored the large Venturi out to get an almost 1-1/8 OD socket down to the small Venturi to remove it. Testing coming this year on my bored-out Howe carb. I'd like to see more M-3 content from you as time goes by.

May I ask what will happen to the throttle lever in the bottom part of the box?

Edited March 25, 2023 by Duey C (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Thanks...that is very useful.
As to the throttle lever, I have 3 different ones and I'm not sure I'll need it...is it something you could use?

I'm not sure when I'll get back to this but now that I've taken it apart likely when I finish the rear axle.

 

In thinking about it, I will not need that part. It's yours if you can use it.

 

I may have to make some of the linkage since it's my intention to mount the carburetor backward...with the air intake facing forward. I'm not sure how I'll connect everything but that part, as it is, will not fit in the space I have available.

Edited March 25, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Duey C]

That's very gracious sir.

[Luv2Wrench]

9 hours ago, Duey C said:

That's very gracious sir.

Gracious might as well be his middle name.  I doubt I would have made it very far into the "machinist" world without his help.

[JV Puleo]

I forgot to add, I always use reamed holes. The amount of expansion is only a few thousandths so the hole has to be closer to the nominal size than you will get with a drill (which is always slightly oversize).

[JV Puleo]

I had some time today...and an idea for a puller to get the venturi out of my Stromberg M3...

I started with a piece of 7/8" bar, turned down on the end to 13/16" and drilled 5/8".

 

 

Then I threaded the end 13/16-18...

 

 

I made some sort of error because the nut I was using as a gauge wouldn't go on very far...I'll look at that tomorrow but, in any case, it won't effect the tool because I only need about 3 threads at the bottom. I've no idea if this will work but the only way to find out is to try.

 

 

 

 

[chistech]

Today with the weather and temperature being fairly nice, I decided to paint my front garage door and the side human door. The lower panel in the garage door was a different color replacement and the human door was a brand new replacement still in primer. As I was painting the breeze was fairly brisk and a piece of garbage paper blew close to me so I went to pick it up. I decided to read what was on it. …………………..it’s a warranty card for Puleo Christmas lights!

[JV Puleo]

Son of a gun...I've never heard of them. I can say the name is fairly unusual and that usually I can find a family connection although that is getting difficult now that we must be four or five generations from the immigrants. My grandfather had three or four brothers and who knows how many his father had. Like many families in Sicily, they practically all emigrated, mostly before WWI. Sicily is a poor country...at least if you aren't a big land owner and there was very little to hold them there. Pulejo is the same name...that is the way it was spelled on my grandfather's birth certificate but there is no "J" in the Italian alphabet. It's really Spanish, albeit probably from the 15th century. Do you remember "Johnny Puleo and his Harmonica Gang"? He was a distant cousin of my fathers.

 

Most of the materials I've been waiting for came in today but I decided to finish up with the carburetor tool first. The end of the piece I made Sunday was drilled and tapped to 1/2-20.

 

 

It is intended to fit into the carburetor like this, screwed into a piece at the bottom.

 

 

Then I made the lower piece...some scrap flat stock drilled and tapped and then turned round with two sides milled off.

 

 

This is supposed to slip under the venturi and give me purchase to pull it out.

 

 

It didn't work...at leas not yet. I have an idea for the next step but I put it aside to think about it first. There isn't any hurry here and I'd already spent too much time on it. I then set up the piece of aluminum that will be my "taper attachment" in the mill.

 

 

I forgot to get a picture but this setup was to scribe seven lines on each side 1" apart and exactly parallel with each other. That was done by pushing the piece up against the stop, scribing the line then flipping the piece over and doing the other side. The stop ensures that they will be parallel. I then moved the table 1" and did it again. When  I got to the middle I turned the piece flat and put a center hole in exactly in line with the scribed lines.

 

 

It doesn't show well but here it is. The center hole gets reamed to 1/2" and will be the center pivot. The scribed lines will aid me in using the right triangle method to set the taper.

 

[chistech]

Joe, thanks for the family name history. I found out some on my own name and to keep it short, although my family is from Madeira Portugal, my original blood line is English. Britos or Britas  (comes from Britain or Britaina) was what the French called the English when they were disposed from England to France. Supposedly my family ended up on Madeira as a political junket way, way back. 

On your issue, what if you put the carb in the freezer overnight? Do you think it might help with the venturi? When I rebuild small RC plane 4stroke motors, I put them in the freezer. Next day the bearings almost fall out and even the cylinder sleeves, which are normally hard to pull at normal temp, come right out.

[JV Puleo]

That is a really good idea. At the moment I can't wedge the small end piece into the slot it has to fit in but I have an idea on how to correct that. When I do fit it in I'll do exactly as you suggest. Actually, I may just try it without that piece. I am certain it just slipped in. I don't know if it's made of aluminum or pot metal...if aluminum it may work...if pot metal it's probably expanded and is too tight but it makes no sense that it would have been a tight press fit. I think we are dealing with slight corrosion but there is no good way to grip it to pull it out.

 

And...you've given me another idea...an expanding arbor with the expansion screw on the back so it can be slipped in and tightened. I'm certain I'll get it out...better yet...and expanding arbor with a tiny lip on the end! Then when it is expanded it will have to grip!

 

[1912Staver]

And it's probably a good idea to use some heat as well. I have an old slow cooker that I bought at the thrift store for $5.00. Fill with ATF and imerse the carb body. If you have a trans shop nearby they will probably give you a gallon of used fluid for free, otherwise just buy new although even the off brand stuff is getting pricy.  Put the body through a few cycles of heating and cooling over a few days.  With any luck the ATF will work its way down in between the venturi and the carb body. It will give your puller a fighting chance of doing the job. { preferably in the open, some of the ATF will gas off and stink up your shop otherwise}. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That's a good idea as well.

I went on  with the taper milling attachment today, starting by drilling and reaming the hole in the center 1/2"

 

 

I wanted knurled ends on the adjustment screws also. I couldn't find any 1/4-28 so I bought two knurled nuts in 10-32 that I drilled out and threaded.

 

 

Then screwed on to the adjusters with a drop of Locktite.

 

 

I then attached everything to the mill table.

 

 

This needs a slot right down the middle to locate the dividing head. Before I milled that I checked the alignment of the table with an indicator.

 

 

That was fine...so I went on  to the aluminum piece. This was a little difficult since I really should be using a much longer reach indicator. In any case, it was very close to begin with and the adjusters allowed me to get it dead on. The next step was milling the slot. For this I bought a new 5/8" end mill. This mill really doesn't turn fast enough to get a perfect finish but with a sharp end mill it was adequate.

 

 

The first slot done...

 

 

In order to do the second one I had to drop the table and move it to the other side. The idea is to never disturb the work piece assuring that the two slots will be in perfect alignment with each other.

 

 

Then I measured and put in center holes for the bolts that will attach the dividing head and foot stock.

 

 

The last step was to drill and tap those holes.

 

 

[chistech]

Joe, are you playing with model trains? In the first picture it looks like an old school train transformer in the background with a red handle.😁

[JV Puleo]

Ha... it is. My cousin Geoff has a HUGE collection of American flyer trains...something like 200 locomotives and several thousand cars. There are literally dozens of those transformers...filling a couple of bushel baskets. All of this was stored in the cellar of the house I've been clearing for the past two years so I took a couple of them. I have in mind to use one to power the pump that lubricates the knee of the mill...(another long story)...right now the pump is running off a 12-volt battery charger.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

There are two oil pumps in the mill, one for the main body and the other for the knee. They are both plunger pumps. The one in the body works fine although the replaceable filter is long out of production. I got around that by rerouting the oil lines and fitting an automotive oil filter. The mill was largely dismantled when I got it and it took me nearly 8 months to reassemble it. One of the last things I discovered was that someone had disconnected the pickup tube for the knee pump and that the gear that drives it was badly damaged from running dry. This is a part I cannot make and, in any case, I would have had to completely dismantle the knee to get to the pickup. So, I fitted a marine scavenger oil pump with external lines to replace it. The only fly in the ointment is that it is a DC pump. I was unable to find an AC pump that would do the job.

[chistech]

I use a few of my own model RR DC transformers to power all kinds of stuff. I also carry one in my toolbox as some of the machines I repair have 5, 12, and 24volt power supplies in them. I can put my meter on the transformer, turn the pot until I get the voltage I need, then use it to test the equipment if the power supplies have gone out. My G scale transformers go up to 23-24 volts so they work for my application. I know Lionel was AC but I’m not sure on American Flyer. I thought they were also AC.

  I just picked up one of these German made LGB Jumbo transformers. 24v and 10amps. It’s for my future outdoor layout. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by chistech (see edit history)

[chistech]

Joe, I don’t want to get your thread any further off subject but I just checked on my train forums and American Flyer trains were mainly AC with some later in DC. You might want to check your transformer closely. But, knowing you, you probably already did! 

[carbking]

The venturi tube, if still original, is zinc alloy.

 

It is not a press-fit, when new it slipped easily into and/or out of the carburetor.

 

The venturi tube is held in place by a set screw.

 

When I was still restoring these, gave up on ever removing one of the venturi tubes intact (the pot metal "grows"); just bored it out, and machined a new one of the proper diameter from aluminum.

 

Jon

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Jon.

I was unsure what it was made of but if it's pot metal I'd replace it even if I did get it out.

I have two other questions...you guessed that I should have a 7/8 or 15/16 venturi...is this the part you were referring to? I'll probably make on e of each.

And, do you sell a kit for this? I expect I can make whatever I need but it would be a lot easier to just but the right parts from someone who knows what they are doing.

 

jp

[JV Puleo]

It's time to try the taper milling attachment. I tried filling the 1" marks I'd made with black nail polish...figuring it was a fast drying, thick lacquer and let it dry while I tried to fix an air rifle for a friend. It did work but not very well...

 

 

Then I assembled everything on the mill table.

 

 

In order for this to work you first have to set the attachment exactly parallel with the table. This proved to be more time consuming than I'd anticipated but I finally came up with a good way of doing it. Then you need to place the indicator on the back side...move the table exactly 1" and adjust the fixture so the indicator reads .052. It turns out I didn't have quite enough adjustment but I was able to work around that by removing one of the adjusters.

 

 

All this took nearly all day as I was being very careful and I made some errors I had to correct. In fact I did set the angle in the wrong direction but that made no difference because I'd have to do that to cut the tapers on the opposite side of the cross. All this was ready to go at about 4:30 and I wanted to see if it would work so I cut the first taper...

 

 

It did work. I won't know if the tapers are right until I've finished the piece but they look right...or at least they don 't look obviously wrong.

I did two of them. Tomorrow I'll do the other two, change the angle of the fixture and do the other side.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)