HOW IS THE SERIAL NUMBER TAG ATTACHED ?

[bobg1951chevy]

I have my recently issued NORTH CAROLINA title, in my possession, for my 1951 Chevrolet, Styleline Deluxe, Sport Coupe.

I bought this car from the estate of my late friend, in NEW MEXICO.

The NEW MEXICO TITLE matched the serial number plate,  on the "A"  pillar post.

NORTH CAROLINA State Troopers have now called today, have told me, upon reviewing my paperwork, and the picture of my serial number taken by the State Trooper months ago, that my serial number plate is not attached correctly to my "A" pillar post.

My serial number plate is attached to my "A" pillar post, with RIVETS, EXACTLY as shown in the 1949 to 1953 GM Chevrolet Service Manual.

 

Fact is, I own TWO 1951 Chevrolets, both are from Janesville, Wisconsin assembly plant. 

 

The car in question was assembled in December of 1950, while the other was assembled in July of 1951. Both serial number plates are identical in appearance, both are secured with rivets to the 'A' pillar post, 10" above the body belt line.

The North Carolina State Trooper has stated my serial number plate, for my 1951 Chevy, should be attached with WELDS.

I have told the trooper that his information is incorrect. I recall other model years having serial number plates attached via welds, but do not recall the years.

Is there any documentation out there, besides the 1949 - 1953 CHEVROLET GM SERVICE MANUAL, that displays or tells of the correct "attaching procedure" for my 1951 Chevrolet serial number ?

The N.C. State Trooper is returning to my home tomorrow, 12-7-2016, for further inspection.

Any accurate information will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob. 12-6-2016.

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

If the Trooper is under 70yoa, (s)he is prolly fulla crapola, and has no legal basis for the opinion.

 

You should request that this Trooper ask the Supervisor to accompany the visit.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Grumpy's Auto Shop (see edit history)

[bobg1951chevy]

The trooper is only the messenger, the folks at "special titles",  in RALEIGH N.C. are making the claim, regarding the welds.

 

However, the trooper is young, under 30 I would guess.

[MCHinson]

Where in NC are you located?

 

Are you dealing with an NC State Trooper or an Inspector from NC DMV License and Theft Enforcement? You should be dealing with an Inspector from NC DMV. In any case, if you supply the Inspector with the information and a copy of the information showing its source, he should be able to help resolve the issue. 

 

The Inspector should also have access to other database information that will show the location of any hidden serial numbers that will confirm that your ID tag has the correct number. A few years ago, I had to go through a bit of an ordeal with a 1954 Buick that had the tag attached with screws since the rivets that Buick used in 1954 were not very durable.

 

In any case, if they attempt to question your serial number and want to assign a state issued ID number, tell them that you wish to file an appeal. There is an appeal board that handles these appeals. I previously spent a couple of years as the NC Region AACA representative on the appeal board. Feel free to send me a PM if I can help you with any questions that you may have on this process works.

 

 

[bobg1951chevy]

Matthew, I am in Hendersonville, NC. I see I must update my info. here.

It was my assumption that the gent who came to my home 2 months ago was a trooper, because he was carrying a side arm.

This trooper or inspector is the same individual who made contact with me today. Certainly not a car guy, based on his overall comments.

Regarding your '54 BUICK, were you able to keep the factory serial number plate ?

When making antique purchases, I pay close attention to serial numbers on titles and vehicles, always look to see if serial number plate has been altered or molested. I am quick to walk away if I can visualize a "snag", down the road.

I was with CHEVROLET for 35 years, the attachment of the serial number plate is valid and was never attached with spot welds in 1951, at the factory.

I "believe" the spot weld procedure began in 1953.

Thank you for your offer to assist. Your info is very informative.

Tomorrow morning I will present info that I have, showing rivets.

We'll see where that info  directs the NC DMV.

Thanks Matthew,

BOB.

[MCHinson]

Yes, I was able to find the location of hidden serial numbers from members of the AACA Discussion Forum and we were able to register the 54 Buick with the original serial number plate (which I later riveted to the door frame to prevent the next owner from ever having a similar problem) after we confirmed that the serial number plate was the same serial number. The DMV Inspectors typically wear suits instead of uniforms but they are sworn officers and armed just like the NCSHP. 

[bobg1951chevy]

Again, thanks for the info.

[Restorer32]

So what, it is not illegal to remove and reinstall a VIN unless done with intent to defraud.

[lump]

Keep in mind, while we're all citing what is legal and what is not, that each state's laws are different. 

[John348]

As I recall there is photo in the shop manual of the VIN plate and how it is fastened

[bobg1951chevy]

The manual does show a photo, but the tag illustrated is not what is on either of my '51's. Possibly generic tag to show location only ??

Edited December 7, 2016 by bobg1951chevy
add word (see edit history)

[lump]

I am trying to locate a photo on my computer, of the backside of a VIN tag on a late-1960's Camaro body shell. I took that photo at a restoration shop just to show the backside of these (formerly) unique rivets, as installed by the factory. But I am having trouble locating it just now. 

 

The rivets used by factory workers to attach VIN tags are different than regular pop rivets, and used to be nearly impossible to obtain, unless you were an official with BMV or State Patrol, etc. Now they show up from time to time on eBay, and there is disagreement among law enforcement officials as to whether selling or possessing these "daisy" rivets is legal or not. 

 

In any case, if I recall correctly, those VIN tags of that era were stainless steel...were they not? If so, "welding" them to mild steel is no easy task. I believe they were always riveted. But don't fear the troopers or BMV officials. They will be able to tell that your VIN tag has been in place a LONG time, and should have data with them to show where "hidden" VIN's are on that car. A brief inspection will likely ease their minds, and solve your problems. 

 

 

[bobg1951chevy]

Cautiously optimistic !
Officer made his visit, we had a pleasant conversation.
I showed him the rivets on my other '51 Chevy serial number tag, he snapped a pic of it.
I copied a picture for him, from my '49 to '53 Chevy Manual, showing the serial number tag location, with its rivets.
He will submit my info to his headquarters in Raleigh.

It "appears" we are coming to a close, on this issue.

Officer believes the new info provided, plus the fact that no concern was noted by the NC DMV, until AFTER the NEW title was issued by the NC DMV, will close this investigation.

His source for serial number plate locations and how they are attached is NICB, National Insurance Crime Bureau.
I hope this chapter is finished.

Thanks to the AACA folks for their input !

Edited December 8, 2016 by bobg1951chevy
added / corrected words. (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

11 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

So what, it is not illegal to remove and reinstall a VIN unless done with intent to defraud.

 

The issue is NCDMV's policies. In NC, antique vehicles get a very nice special tax treatment. Years ago, a good friend of the then DMV Commissioner received an Antique vehicle tag for a modern street rod. When it became public, we got a new DMV Commissioner and a lot of new laws regarding titling of antique vehicles in NC. Any antique coming into the state has to be inspected by NCDMV. They really go out of their way to make sure they don't allow any non-authentic "antique" cars to be titled as antiques. The appeal board does have some representatives of the antique auto hobby but the majority of the appeal board is made up of DMV officials. It is easier to provide documentation to resolve any questions that the inspector may have than to have to file an appeal. When I was on the appeal board, I was able to convince them to reverse some bad decisions but is was not an easy task. 

[bobg1951chevy]

As much of a hassle as my experience has been, I like the idea of close scrutiny in NC, which should lessen my chances of getting a "bogus NC purchase", down the road.

When we lived in Georgia, I registered another '51 there.

No physical inspection of the car, no physical inspection of the serial number. No physical inspection of anything, regarding the '51.

Georgia simply copied the information from my out of state title, then that out of state title was returned  immediately to me.

A Georgia license plate was issued, the license plate registration served as my title, as well, since Georgia does not title antique vehicles.

A system full of "potential errors" .

Edited December 8, 2016 by bobg1951chevy (see edit history)

[John348]

30 minutes ago, bobg1951chevy said:

As much of a hassle as my experience has been, I like the idea of close scrutiny in NC, which should lessen my chances of getting a "bogus NC purchase", down the road.

When we lived in Georgia, I registered another '51 there.

No physical inspection of the car, no physical inspection of the serial number. No physical inspection of anything, regarding the '51.

Georgia simply copied the information from my out of state title, then that out of state title was returned  immediately to me.

A Georgia license plate was issued, the license plate registration served as my title, as well, since Georgia does not title antique vehicles.

A system full of "potential errors" .

 

I found that Georgia has a reputation as being a state to wash paperwork,

[bobg1951chevy]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 

I found that Georgia has a reputation as being a state to wash paperwork,

I can understand that being the case.

I could have had a tank parked in the parking lot, while registering it as my '51 Chevy.

[Mark Shaw]

In WA state, they do not allow frame numbers  that are screwed or riveted onto the vehicle.  I had a "nasty attitude" WA Patrol inspector insist that the frame number was stamped under the fuel tank of my 1924 Buick after I showed him the original riveted tag behind the front tire.  I called the head of the State Patrol licensing department and referred him to a website that documented what I showed the inspector.  The next day the boss instructed that inspector to approve the frame number and I was able to register the vehicle correctly...

 

A few years later, I got the same nasty inspector when I took my 1912 Buick in for inspection.  Again, I showed him the frame number tag riveted onto the rear cross member and he refused it and went ahead and used the engine number without notifying me what he had done.  That website evidently disappeared & I could no longer prove my case.  So my 1912 Buick is still registered with the engine number.  I understand that some other states register vehicles with engine numbers too, but what do you do when you engine is toast and you need to replace it?

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[61polara]

About two years ago a fellow member in NC had the same problem with NC DMV on a '48 Buick because the serial number was attached by screws.  About 20 of us sent him photos of our '46-'48 Buicks showing they were all attached with the same type screw.  The inspector gave in an approved the serial number.  Search the Buick General forum and you should find that topic.  You might try the same here by asking members with original cars to post photos of their serial number plate.

[bobg1951chevy]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

About two years ago a fellow member in NC had the same problem with NC DMV on a '48 Buick because the serial number was attached by screws.  About 20 of us sent him photos of our '46-'48 Buicks showing they were all attached with the same type screw.  The inspector gave in an approved the serial number.  Search the Buick General forum and you should find that topic.  You might try the same here by asking members with original cars to post photos of their serial number plate.

I believe the copy of my 49-54 Chevy issued service manual, plus my OTHER '51 in its garage, which the officer photographed, will put this witch hunt for serial number plate welds to rest.

At least, it is my hope.

I don't want NC to reissue THEIR serial numbers to my car.

If it got to the point of getting NC reissued serial numbers, due to a NC DMV foul up,   I can't help but believe my car value would be reduced, whatever it is, with the NC serial number stickers on there.

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

In WA state, they do not allow frame numbers  that are screwed or riveted onto the vehicle.  I had a "nasty attitude" WA Patrol inspector insist that the frame number was stamped under the fuel tank of my 1924 Buick after I showed him the original riveted tag behind the front tire.  I called the head of the State Patrol licensing department and referred him to a website that documented what I showed the inspector.  The next day the boss instructed that inspector to approve the frame number and I was able to register the vehicle correctly...

 

A few years later, I got the same nasty inspector when I took my 1912 Buick in for inspection.  Again, I showed him the frame number tag riveted onto the rear cross member and he refused it and went ahead and used the engine number without notifying me what he had done.  That website evidently disappeared & I could no longer prove my case.  So my 1912 Buick is still registered with the engine number.  I understand that some other states register vehicles with engine numbers too, but what do you do when you engine is toast and you need to replace it?

Has Mr. Yeakel in Bellingham also encountered similar problems with the WA licencing authorities registering his "David Dunbar" era Buicks?

 

Craig

[Mark Shaw]

Craig,

    Mike is a whole state away in Bellingham while I am in the Vancouver area.

 

[bobg1951chevy]

18 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

In WA state, they do not allow frame numbers  that are screwed or riveted onto the vehicle.  I had a "nasty attitude" WA Patrol inspector insist that the frame number was stamped under the fuel tank of my 1924 Buick after I showed him the original riveted tag behind the front tire.  I called the head of the State Patrol licensing department and referred him to a website that documented what I showed the inspector.  The next day the boss instructed that inspector to approve the frame number and I was able to register the vehicle correctly...

 

A few years later, I got the same nasty inspector when I took my 1912 Buick in for inspection.  Again, I showed him the frame number tag riveted onto the rear cross member and he refused it and went ahead and used the engine number without notifying me what he had done.  That website evidently disappeared & I could no longer prove my case.  So my 1912 Buick is still registered with the engine number.  I understand that some other states register vehicles with engine numbers too, but what do you do when you engine is toast and you need to replace it?

"I understand that some other states register vehicles with engine numbers too, but what do you do when you engine is toast and you need to replace it?"

Your concern is the primary reason why placing engine serial numbers on a title never made any sense.

With Chevrolet, in the earlier days, a new replacement 6 cylinder engine had a "blank" boss, by the distributor. 

It was the job of the tech to stamp the existing engine serial number onto the new engine.

That "sorta" worked, as long as the tech took the time to do it, and, as long as the stamping kit was still complete and available, somewhere in the service dept. 

 

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

Craig,

    Mike is a whole state away in Bellingham while I am in the Vancouver area.

 

But Mike is still within the state, and the same rule would apply, presumably.  Why would it be any different for him where he is?

 

Craig

[joe_padavano]

39 minutes ago, bobg1951chevy said:

"I understand that some other states register vehicles with engine numbers too, but what do you do when you engine is toast and you need to replace it?"

Your concern is the primary reason why placing engine serial numbers on a title never made any sense.

With Chevrolet, in the earlier days, a new replacement 6 cylinder engine had a "blank" boss, by the distributor. 

It was the job of the tech to stamp the existing engine serial number onto the new engine.

That "sorta" worked, as long as the tech took the time to do it, and, as long as the stamping kit was still complete and available, somewhere in the service dept. 

 

 

It made about as much sense as using a serial number tag (VIN tag) screwed to the BOLT-ON glove box door, as used in the mid-50s F-100 trucks.  Look, back then, auto theft wasn't the problem it later became.  Trying to impose today's rules on cars built then is just stupid. 

[Mark Shaw]

On 12/9/2016 at 11:07 AM, 8E45E said:

But Mike is still within the state, and the same rule would apply, presumably.  Why would it be any different for him where he is?

 

Craig

Craig,

    Mike is 4 hours from me, and I only see him on club tours or one or two meetings each year.  So, I don't know if he has had similar problems.