1963 Corvair Spyder Turbo

[padgett]

Then I'd suggest getting back to Barney and friends down in Austin (I used to live in Pflugerville) and see about dropping in a good running 110. Put the turbo engine in a big baggie. That way you have a running, driving car to sell and the NO can decide what to do with it.

Edited November 19, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

12 hours ago, padgett said:

Also one thing the 'vair had that the aluminum Buick lacked was much better cylinder cooling (as long as kept up to snuff) and considerably lighter weight than the Olds.

 

The BOPR aluminum 215 weighs 320 lbs from carb to oil pan. A friend and I hand-carried one out of a wrecking yard back in our young and stupid days, using the exhaust manifolds as handles.  They aren't THAT heavy.  Also, the Jetfire had 215 HP to the Corvair's 150.  I think power-to-weight is the metric that matters.

 

I'm not aware of any cooling issues with the aluminum 215. I have several now and a friend has a Jetfire.  Problems back in the day were primarily caused by owners who ran only tap water in the cooling jackets. By the way, the limited boost on the Olds motor is easily circumvented with shimming of the waste gate spring. The Corvair used the built-in restriction of the carb throat to limit boost, so no increases were possible without major replacements of parts.

[sfair]

13 hours ago, padgett said:

Then I'd suggest getting back to Barney and friends down in Austin (I used to live in Pflugerville) and see about dropping in a good running 110. Put the turbo engine in a big baggie. That way you have a running, driving car to sell and the NO can decide what to do with it.

 

Do not remove the original engine.

[joe_padavano]

13 hours ago, padgett said:

Then I'd suggest getting back to Barney and friends down in Austin (I used to live in Pflugerville) and see about dropping in a good running 110. Put the turbo engine in a big baggie. That way you have a running, driving car to sell and the NO can decide what to do with it.

 

Once you remove the original engine, you've just made the new owner's decision for him/her.  Sorry, but this is very bad advice.  The car is only original once.  I don't care how careful one is swapping an engine like this, but unless the work is being done by a high-end shop who knows EXACTLY what they are doing, SOMETHING will get lost or screwed up.  DO NOT do this. An intact, original car is worth FAR more than one with an engine swap.

[60FlatTop]

There is a guy on the north side of the city near me who has a white early '60's Corvair sitting in his garage, not running, white with brown around the edges. He claims he saved it and his dream is to get enough money selling it to take his family to Disneyland.

 

We heard that and kind of figured maybe he is in Disneyland already.

Bernie

[padgett]

1) A 48DCOE would really wake the Corvair up.

 

2) I came out of a racing background & worked for GM when the cars were nearly new and know what Vince & co. were doing on the side (yes this is a test, have the green sheets, think I just happen to have a 63 turbo dyno chart ?). Sorry but a big baggie is where to put a numbers matching oddball engine while you are having fun. That "only original once" mantra lasted just long enough for a kid to pull the fun parts out from closet when his dream car arrived. I was the oddball who saved the original parts for later and hated to drill a hole that was not already there. OTOH I had no problem turning a 'vair transaxle with blown syncros into a crash box on the back of a trailer to make a race. On a fun turbo a quick ratio steering and realigned shifter for short throws were de rigueur for a new 'vair. No one with any sporting instincts liked 5 turns lock to lock.

 

3) In the end it is what Victoria decides to do, all of this is just suggestions.

 

ps I already see a bunch of changes from stock in the pictures, some were already mentioned.

[victorialynn2]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

ps I already see a bunch of changes from stock in the pictures, some were already mentioned.

Thanks. Can you elaborate for my own info? At this point it's looking like I may just keep this one.

[padgett]

Well a fanatic would gig the wrong windshield washer bag and all the loose wiring in the engine compartment also not sure what that black wrinkle device in the trunk is, looks too far inboard to be a headlight bucket & what goes under the spring mount ? Top also looks too good to be original.

 

OTOH what I see is a nice fun car to enjoy and not become a coffee table.

[Digger914]

4 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

Thanks. Can you elaborate for my own info? At this point it's looking like I may just keep this one.

 

I've looked at the pictures and I see the Deluxe two tone steering wheel, with two tone interior. Are they the wheel covers that came with the car when new, only the dealer and first owner would know for sure. Deluxe wheel covers were always a dealer installed item. I didn't see the Deluxe - Dealer add propane heater up front in the trunk, which was not a factory offered option and was the most popular dealer added item up here in the frozen north. 

 

Did this car come from the factory with the Spider package, full floor carpet and two tone interior? I can't tell from the VIN. If it didn't, somebody did a darn nice job of making it look like it did. Tool marks on the bolts that only get turned if the motor is pulled, will only tell you that the motor has been pulled; of course, if there are no tool marks, there would be no reason to question that it has the original motor and that would make it a Spider.

 

Everybody sees something when they look at pictures, I see a battery covered with dust that looks like the ground cable has been off for several years. Most people don't bother to disconnect the ground when they push a dead car into a shed, so I see a car that was running when it was parked. Will it start easy, probably not, takes some tinkering to prime a carburetor with a turbo in the way. Thinking that it was running when it was parked and not knowing how long its been sitting, it could take an hour to all day to get it running. Even if it runs like crap, it cost less to transport one that runs than one that needs to be pushed and winched onto a transport.

 

In real-estate it's location, location, location. A car is portable real-estate and what it cost to get it to where it's wanted comes off the top of what it's worth where it is. Where you are everyone who wants one has a rust free old car and a blond in a convertible always gets a second look. When you get to where the car gets more looks than you do, you're in the right place to put the for sale sign in the window. In the mean time, enjoy the ride.

[Guest GT52]

Until the two-tone steering wheel was mentioned, I was wondering if the Corvair wasn't actually a red car with red interior, that someone did a low-budget changeover to white, perhaps when the seats needed recovered...but that two-tone wheel seems to make that unlikely.  I would think that Corvair guys could tell you off the top of their heads if/where there is a code that definitively identifies the interior color?  Barney Eaton seemed pretty certain that the metal portion of the door should be body color, which makes sense, but I always have a healthy skepticism about such things and am really hesitant to change anything unless I am absolutely certain it just "couldn't be". 

 

In any event, that interior would be very low on my list of things to "fix".  It looks nice enough, and it looks original enough.  In an NFL stadium full of people there might be one guy who would know that that interior might not be "correct".  Purists care, but to take that car to where it satisfies a purist would cost many times what the car would be worth...better just to sort it out mechanically and enjoy it as it is for what it is.

[victorialynn2]

On 11/19/2016 at 5:31 PM, Digger914 said:

Everybody sees something when they look at pictures, I see a battery covered with dust that looks like the ground cable has been off for several years. Most people don't bother to disconnect the ground when they push a dead car into a shed, so I see a car that was running when it was parked.

 

In real-estate it's location, location, location. A car is portable real-estate and what it cost to get it to where it's wanted comes off the top of what it's worth where it is. Where you are everyone who wants one has a rust free old car and a blond in a convertible always gets a second look. When you get to where the car gets more looks than you do, you're in the right place to put the for sale sign in the window. In the mean time, enjoy the ride.

Thanks for all the great info! It's these types of details that only experienced collectors would think of. Ask me about the real estate business and I can tell you things you might not think of, but I'm lost with cars. I really appreciate that you took the time to point these things out. The comments about the engine bolts and battery cable especially are good to know. I am going to look at the tag in the engine compartment tomorrow. It will tell me if it's a factory Spyder. I can tell you though, that of the 100+ cars I've know my father to have over the years, he always bought rare, original, low mileage vehicles with straight, unmolested bodies, so I seriously doubt this car would be an exception. I also remember him talking about it, and so does my step mother, and how it was a rare, original Spyder. 

 

As for location, I've hauled a 30 Model A, 70 Bronco and 64 Rampside to Oregon. The Bronco sold local for good $, and the other two where shipped to the midwest and also went for good money. The west coast has a lot of Corvair fans, so I think it is worth it to ship it. I have a car hauler (not enclosed) and it's not as heavy as others I've shipped. I'm just not sure if the rag top could take the trip. How do I find out besides the obvious trial and error?

 

My dad was a truck driver and would buy cars down south and haul them back to NH on his empty trailer. The rust free cars were in high demand in New England, so I hear what you are saying!

[padgett]

2 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

I'm just not sure if the rag top could take the trip

Well if it is a nice day, just put the top down. Unless you plan to put it on the trailer backwards (heavy end first).

[victorialynn2]

Just now, padgett said:

Well if it is a nice day, just put the top down. Unless you plan to put it on the trailer backwards (heavy end first).

Not sure but it's a 2000K trip. I may just hire a truck to haul it with the '57. There is no way I'd trailer the '57 myself. It's too big and too valuable.

[Digger914]

Convertibles were built to go down the road nose to the wind top up or down and they tow just fine on an open trailer nose to the wind with the top up. If you ship anything on a portable parking lot best to bag it, even new cars sometimes drip tranny fluid and that will ruin the paint.

 

Don't ship a car cross country during hunting season if you don't have to. If you do, ship enclosed. Before rail cars got steel siding we got at least one wounded car every season.

[victorialynn2]

19 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

Convertibles were built to go down the road nose to the wind top up or down and they tow just fine on an open trailer nose to the wind with the top up. If you ship anything on a portable parking lot best to bag it, even new cars sometimes drip tranny fluid and that will ruin the paint.

 

Don't ship a car cross country during hunting season if you don't have to. If you do, ship enclosed. Before rail cars got steel siding we got at least one wounded car every season.

 

19 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

Convertibles were built to go down the road nose to the wind top up or down and they tow just fine on an open trailer nose to the wind with the top up. If you ship anything on a portable parking lot best to bag it, even new cars sometimes drip tranny fluid and that will ruin the paint.

 

Don't ship a car cross country during hunting season if you don't have to. If you do, ship enclosed. Before rail cars got steel siding we got at least one wounded car every season.

Bag the car?

 

I guess I've been lucky with the ones I've shipped in hunting season so far. 

[victorialynn2]

10 hours ago, Imperial62 said:

Check out the CRESTON IOWA AUCTION thread above.  There were several Corvairs, but likely rougher shape than your Dad's. 

It's hard to tell from the photos, but mine is much, much nicer. It's sad to see so little interest though. I have come to the conclusion that it's probably best to keep it. I have always wanted a convertible, and I don't see me driving the '57 Retractable much because it's too valuable and too big!

[Digger914]

Dad got one to two truck loads delivered everyday, so I guess the odds for damage are about 1 in 10,000 for rail and freeway carry. Used cars from the auction up north spent to much time on the rural roads. Nice to have some clean older cars on the used lot at graduation time, but six months of the year not worth the trouble.

 

New cars get shipped with a peal off plastic to protect the paint because sometimes even new cars drip, most of the time cars that drip, drip oil and that does come out in the wash. Tranny fluid eats paint. When you ship a truckload you get to pick what's on the lower row, when you ship one or two, they go where the driver needs them to be for ease of delivery. On a stacking transport that will probably be a mix of new and used, the convertible with the white top should be up top, or covered.

 

Don't let all those dead Corvair's at the Iowa auction discourage you, somebody had to really like Corvair's to accumulate that many in one place. Some car collectors are just hoarders with a compulsive urge to buy a specific type of car. They buy more than they can store or care for and leave them sit in old barns or outside for years, always meaning to do something with them until the day they die. I have a friend with a Jaguar compulsion and I would guess that the Corvair's all came from the same place and that the ones that were still worth something went long before the auction.

[padgett]

Have always thought there could be a business running rust free bodies north and nice interiors sourh.

 

Victoria, this is a great place for information but a terrible place to sell a car, local is always best for a good driver quality car but the Corvair Society is also a good place. Also here you will get 2,000 different "right" answers to a question. Will admit being a bad influence having gone to GMI and knew most of the interesting people at low levels around the corporation. What they thought of the cars then was a little different from much of what is said here (and the really interesting stuff, the OHCs, Wankels (Caddy 4-6-8 came from an alternate fire wankel design), FI, High Energy Ignitions with a FI fuel pump in the base, even a steam engined Grand Prix was in the Experimental Garages),

 

ps "Driver quality" is not bad, is something you can take to a local show and have fun with for not much investment (and not worry about a very valuable car getting damaged). Clark's also has about any part you can imagine, just wants someone who understands the special needs of an air cooled engine (and Oregon is a lot better place for one than a Texas summer).

 

pps I "do like I say" and have a built 400 with a 1973 block in my Judge and an original correct date coded long block in a big baggie. If I found a nice five or six speed, the Muncie would go in a baggie also.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

Have always thought there could be a business running rust free bodies north and nice interiors sourh.

 

Like the snowbirds who collect desert sheet metal over the winter and drag it to the east coast swap meets the rest of the season?  Unfortunately, the supply is drying up and the people who were doing that are aging and no longer in the business.

[victorialynn2]

I took a pic of the tag in the engine compartment today. From what I can tell, the "C" in the "ACC" line indicates a Spyder. Can anyone verify this?

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1j_Rb5rf7tyMTFleEx2bHZuckU

 

[countrytravler]

19 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

It's hard to tell from the photos, but mine is much, much nicer. It's sad to see so little interest though. I have come to the conclusion that it's probably best to keep it. I have always wanted a convertible, and I don't see me driving the '57 Retractable much because it's too valuable and too big!

 

Get good insurance on the retract and drive it.

[victorialynn2]

2 minutes ago, countrytravler said:

Get good insurance on the retract and drive it.

That thing is a boat! LOL

[padgett]

Well sorta: 2C is a padded dash, 3C is the turbo

 0967 is a 900 Monza or Spyder convertible

WR is Willow Run plant

2 - 781 is black convertible top and medium red imitation leather bucket seats

Paint 900 is tuxedo black not sure what the -5 is. Wheel color ?

 

Have me digging out stuff I have not seen in years.

 

 

[victorialynn2]

I took a pic of the Fischer tag on the '63 today. It seems to indicated a real Spyder, although I think the original color was 

Just now, padgett said:

Well sorta: 2C is a padded dash, 3C is the turbo

 0967 is a 900 Monza or Spyder convertible

WR is Willow Run plant

2 - 781 is black convertible top and medium red imitation leather bucket seats

Paint 900 is tuxedo black not sure what the -5 is. Wheel color ?

 

Have me digging out stuff I have not seen in years.

 

 

Thanks for your help. 

[victorialynn2]

I looked at the car a little closer today. There doesn't seem to be a rust issue. I will try to get pics soon. I did find more of the Kelsey-Hayes wheels in a box in excellent condition. Here are close ups of the ones on the car too, they don't appear rusty, just dusty. I added pics to this folder:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1j_Rb5rf7tyZGtGbE15RUdiLXc

Edited November 22, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

I also found these...

[Guest GT52]

Well, obviously the old Corvair has had a bit of work done to it over the years.  Every car has a history.  If Padgett's decoding is correct I wouldn't be too bummed, as it would seem to confirm the turbo option, which would confirm it being a real Spyder.  I would also think that a black over black with red interior Spyder might be even more rare and desirable than the colors its in now.  For reasons of cost I wouldn't even think about putting it back to original, but if you eventually sell it to someone intent on doing a restoration on it that original color scheme is highly desirable.

[victorialynn2]

42 minutes ago, GT52 said:

Well, obviously the old Corvair has had a bit of work done to it over the years.  Every car has a history.  If Padgett's decoding is correct I wouldn't be too bummed, as it would seem to confirm the turbo option, which would confirm it being a real Spyder.  I would also think that a black over black with red interior Spyder might be even more rare and desirable than the colors its in now.  For reasons of cost I wouldn't even think about putting it back to original, but if you eventually sell it to someone intent on doing a restoration on it that original color scheme is highly desirable.

I think the paint needs to be redone anyway. The body is really nice, but there are cracks in the paint from the heat I think.

[padgett]

Cracks can also occur where body filler has been used and it has shrunk.

 

Personally like red/white or white/red the best but am a Floridian and like bright colors.

[sfair]

The lower body side molding may be missing because of previous rust repair?

[mike6024]

 

Here is some more info. Kind of confusing because how you read these tags seems to depend on which plant they came from.

One question is what was the original interior paint? The interior has a color code for the vinyl and another for the interior painted surfaces. It seems in the case of Willow Run the interior paint is under the PAINT code, 900-5 means black exterior and 5=red interior paint. Other plants seemed to put the interior paint under the TRIM code.

 

This one says TRIM 2-781. And Paint 900-5

http://www.corvairforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12097

http://www.sanjosechevys.org/Tech/tech_decode_corvair_60-64.htm

http://1969corvair.com/techpages/Corvair_Tech_Page_VINs.html

 

Example - 

TRIM 5-781 = RED
This 3 digit code represents the interior color and seat type (781 applies to 900 Series Monza only, which is fitted with Bucket Seats).
Interior: The 1962-63 Corvairs have an extra digit on the trim or paint section of the tag. WRN has the extra digit for interior paint on the Paint section.

Oakland cars have the code on the trim line....

Interior paint codes:...1963: 2= Blue 3= Aqua 4= Fawn 5= Red 7= Black 8= Saddle R = White/Red.

 

Decoding the Corvair VIN

                   *Model years -1960-1964 

          Digit Position                   Represents 

             #1----------------------------Year-     0=1960, 1=1961, 2=1962, 
                                                                 3=1963, 4=1964

          #2 & #3-----------------------Trim Series-     05=500, 07=700, 09=900 
                                                                             06=Spyder

          #4 & #5-----------------------Model-   27=Coupe 
                                                                  35=Station Wagon 
                                                                  67=Convertible 
                                                                  69=Sedan

            #6-----------------------------Plant-     W= Willow Run 
                                                                  K= Kansas City, MO 
                                                                  O= Oakland, CA 
                                                                  L= Los Angeles, CA 
  
        #7 - #12------------------------Sequential Production Number

 

So I guess your Corvair here, based on the codes of the body tag should look like this one mentioned earlier, black with all red interior that sold for $7k. 

 

http://collectorcarpricetracker.com/auctions/detail/151372379169/

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Guest GT52]

15 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

I think the paint needs to be redone anyway. The body is really nice, but there are cracks in the paint from the heat I think.

Just from a financial standpoint, I would caution against getting into much in the way of paint work on that car.  Anyone who wants to restore that car would want what would be a high end job to take it back to original color, and that alone would cost more than the car would likely be worth when it is finished.  Anything short of that sort of a paint job is as likely to decrease the value as increase it, because it is just one more coat of paint that needs removing.

[victorialynn2]

1 hour ago, mike6024 said:

So I guess your Corvair here, based on the codes of the body tag should look like this one mentioned earlier, black with all red interior that sold for $7k. 

 

http://collectorcarpricetracker.com/auctions/detail/151372379169/

Thank you so much. I was just reading through "Corvair Gold" and was coming to the same conclusion. This must have been one of the first Spyders put together that year, because he estimated the vin's starting around Mid to Late March and about 226,000. 

The only difference with the car above is that I *believe* the top should be black. That sure is a nice Spyder for the money and it is very close to what mine should be. Thank for the info!

Quote

 

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

17 minutes ago, GT52 said:

Just from a financial standpoint, I would caution against getting into much in the way of paint work on that car.  Anyone who wants to restore that car would want what would be a high end job to take it back to original color, and that alone would cost more than the car would likely be worth when it is finished.  Anything short of that sort of a paint job is as likely to decrease the value as increase it, because it is just one more coat of paint that needs removing.

How much is a high end paint job? I'm really starting to think of keeping it, cleaning it up, get it running and painting it. My only regret is black is so hard to keep clean! I will look into red seat covers from Clarks. Was that car considered bucket seats or bench? I believe my tag is for bucket seats.

Edited November 22, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well that explains the "5", my notes did not have it.

 

Personally do not like black cars as much as white with black trim.

 

High end paint job can easily run over $10k, lot depends on what is under the paint. OTOH have gotten a decent paint job on a much newer car with no rust or filler for $2k.

Notes said the "2" code was for a black top but with  a red interior I always liked a deep red top. Not factory but might as well make it the way you like it.

[victorialynn2]

I'm researching more comps. Is it just me, or does this tag I saw on eBay look completely fake? Too shine, too low of body number, numbers too close together and screwed on? Looks completely different than mine...

[Guest GT52]

1 hour ago, victorialynn2 said:

How much is a high end paint job?

Well, to give you an idea how difficult that is to answer, give this thread a scan:

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/281448-69-gto-restoration-costs/

It depends on your standards.  I am certainly no expert, but I would say no less that $10k for a complete color change and with unknown body work underneath the existing paint...and it could easily end up 2 or 3 times that.  That car is certainly deserving of a rotisserie quality restoration, but I seriously doubt that you want to get involved in such a thing.  Assuming that isn't your interest, I would just get it roadworthy, and then if you really want a shiny car I'd take it to Maaco and repaint it red for $500 and call it a day.  Let the next guy deal with it if he wants a concours level car. 

[padgett]

Agree with GT. Have seen good jobs come from MAACO, just depends on the shop.

Yup, the screws give it away. Probably a real body tag just maybe not from that car. You could polish yours to look like that. Looks like it also had a tinted windshield and the interior lighting group.

 

ps I make your the second week in March (63) and the other the third week in October (62) also there may be a 1 in front. So considerably earlier than yours (personally like late cars, they have the bugs out)

Edited November 22, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

How much is a high end paint job?

 

A good paint job is 10% materials and 90% prep. Quality materials cost between $500 and $2000 these days.  You can do the math and see that $10K-$12K is middle of the road.  A high-end paint job with lots of block sanding and finicky metal straightening is $20K, easy.  That's for a stock type paint job, not custom colors or candy paint. None if this includes major sheet metal work or rust repair.

 

Yes, you can get a paint job for $1000-$2000.  There will be lots of ripples in the body and orange peel in the paint. The difference will be bottom-dollar materials and bare minimum, "scuff and shoot" labor.

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

How much is a high end paint job? I'm really starting to think of keeping it, cleaning it up, get it running and painting it. My only regret is black is so hard to keep clean! I will look into red seat covers from Clarks. Was that car considered bucket seats or bench? I believe my tag is for bucket seats.

 

Honestly,  probably about 2x what the car is worth.  Quality paint (I mean just the cans) is 2k,  add another 2k in primer/sealer & materials.  You are at 4k and have done zero work.  There is no way to determine what work needs to be done under the existing paint until the car is dipped or stripped.  If there is rust repair the job could be 3 or 4x what the car is worth.  Not to mention making it laser straight.  Remember, the paint is the very last part of a long  process when talking about "high end paint".