2nd Gen OEM Handling Upgrades

[EmTee]

Since I'm planning to rebuild the front suspension (springs, ball joints, tie rods, etc.( in my '67 Riviera this winter, I'm interested in tips from others regarding suspension/handling upgrades that can be made as part of that project.  I'm particularly interested in any OEM parts upgrades.  One I have read about is the change Buick made in the spindles for '69; I think it results in improved camber angle in turns.  My '67 is a drum brake car and I prefer to keep it that way.  As far as aftermarket parts are concerned, I may consider things like springs & shocks, but I don't want to kill the ride quality -- just tighten-up the cornering response.  It may be that simply installing the new parts will get me 90% there...

[RivNut]

If all you're interested in is firming up the stock suspension, I would just replace all of the OE rubber bushings with some polygraphite or polyurethane bushings.  You might be able to get some of the better driving characteristics of the later years by adding in some positive caster.  The setting on your car are probably designed for bias ply tires.  Adding positive caster and radial tires will make a really big difference in itself.  I'm wondering if the '69 and later spindles didn't address caster rather than camber.  The kind of brakes has no effect on the handling, just braking so keeping your drums is not that big of a deal.

 

Ed

[PWB]

This 1969 pamphlet touts use of reverse camber:

 

[RivNut]

Do a little research on both caster and camber and you'll know what each does.  Without changing entire steering components, caster adjustment on the older models is about the best you can do.  

[JZRIV]

6 hours ago, EmTee said:

Since I'm planning to rebuild the front suspension (springs, ball joints, tie rods, etc.( in my '67 Riviera this winter, I'm interested in tips from others regarding suspension/handling upgrades that can be made as part of that project.  I'm particularly interested in any OEM parts upgrades.  One I have read about is the change Buick made in the spindles for '69; I think it results in improved camber angle in turns.  My '67 is a drum brake car and I prefer to keep it that way.  As far as aftermarket parts are concerned, I may consider things like springs & shocks, but I don't want to kill the ride quality -- just tighten-up the cornering response.  It may be that simply installing the new parts will get me 90% there...

I think you'll be surprised at how much difference doing a total suspension rebuild with stock bushings will make. Unless you plan to do over aggressive driving, stock parts should be suitable and not adversely affect original ride quality.

 

But.... if you really want to stiffen it up there are some options. Member Roadshark rebuilt his 67 suspension and located some performance parts so check with him. Maybe he will see this thread.

[telriv]

The ONLY places I use POLY bushings is the top of the shocks, sway bar links & bushings, brake reaction rods & rear panhard bar. I have removed many upper & lower a arms poly bushings from clients cars because of the squeaking & rough ride. KYB shocks would be an improvement or Bilstein would be even better. Changing out the steering box for a newer faster ratio also makes a BIG diff. Adding as much positive caster as is possible & keeping the camber closer to 0* + or _ a little. The toe remains the same. They usually give a min. & max. I go in between & then divide that in 1/2 for each wheel.

 

 

Tom T.

 

 

 

[RoadShark]

I've only done the rear suspension so far.  PST has polygraphite bushings for the rear.  I put in new Delco HD springs, tubular lower arms, and Bilstein shocks.  You can read about it here:

 

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/263540-new-guy-new-to-me-67-gs/?page=1

 

For the front I've only put the Addco sway bar and Bilstein shocks.  Shocks all around made a big difference.  I'm used to 7/8" front sway bars on old GM cars, but the Riv's measured 3/4"!  You can almost twist it by hand.  The 1 1/8" Addco bar is a big improvement.

 

I plan on doing all the front bushings, new HD springs, a new steering box, and a new alignment next.  Despite PST saying that "all of our bushings kits are available in rubber or polygraphite", the fronts for the Riv are only available in rubber.

[70rivme]

I just installed 1" lowered springs from Coil Spring Specialties a couple of weeks ago. The fronts were 30% stiffer and the rears are 20%. I am going to redo the complete front end this winter if all works out the way I have planned. Besides adding the springs, my car already had a front sway bar from P-S-T, Monroe shocks in the front and Bilsteins in the rear. No rear sway bar and everything else is '70 original. Personally I cannot stand the rear Bilstein shocks as the rear end of the car rides and goes over bumps like there is some heavy cargo back there before and after the spring install.  Aside from the rear shocks, the springs on all four corners has dramatically improved the handling of my car. The cornering is much faster and flatter so the car doesn't feel like it is going to tip over. The 1" lowered stance definitely helps with the overall look of the car in my opinion too. I have some Gabriel Classics I picked up a few days ago to replace the Bilsteins, hopefully they fix the harsh rear suspension.

[EmTee]

Thanks to all for the terrific feedback!  I think my next step is to research some of the suggestions above and come up with a plan that will meet my goal of sharper cornering without making the ride harsh.  Oh, and of course there's always that darn budget to consider.    Then again, there's nothing wrong with a Phase I, Phase II approach...

 

My immediate take-away is that there's probably no need to swap-in '69/'70 front spindles.  It sounds like tweaking the alignment settings to take advantage of the radial tires can yield nearly the same benefit. Springs and shocks are definitely part of the plan and I do like the idea of the 1" lowering springs that 70rivme mentioned.  He notes that the springs are stiffer (apparently to compensate for the shorter suspension travel), but how is the ride quality?  I don't want to feel every expansion joint in the roadway.  I was originally thinking OEM shocks (i.e., Delco or equivalent) however, that choice is probably subject to further consideration if I were to choose the lowering springs.

[telriv]

Stiffer springs, stiffer ride. Add to it stiffer shocks & will result in what has happened. Stiff springs stock shocks. Stock springs stiffer shocks. Sway bars DON'T affect ride quality normally.

[RoadShark]

Stiffer springs and poly bushings will add to the harshness.  The sway bar may add a little when you hit a bump with one tire and not the other, but this is not a huge bar, and I didn't notice anything.

 

The gas shocks change the character of the ride considerably without adding "harshness".  They add an increased sense of control.  I don't know how else to describe it.

 

The poly bushings in the rear track or pan hard rod won't contribute to harshness, but they will prevent the rear of the body from moving relative to the frame.  I think they're worth it.

[steelman]

Look at picture 7 in the illustration above. Two things to note here. First is the mounting points for the control arms, both upper and lower. Not to the spindle, but to the frame. Compare the angles of both the upper and lower arms and see the difference. Those new mounting points cause the wheel to move out at the top when the spring is compressed, compared to in at the top with the old design. I don't think changing spindles alone would make this change on your car.

 

[Pat Curran]

In typical GM fashion, they coined the name "accudrive" for Buick in 1969 when they decided to tweak the camber for better handling.  Period Buick advertisements called it "revolutionary." Those were the days!

[60FlatTop]

If you haven't used ONLY poly sway bar bushings, try them, and leave the rest alone. They do a great job. But you have to only do the sway bar bushings, none of the other. And actually do it. Don't just think about what it would be like.

If you own a Buick and the handling doesn't satisfy you it should have a soft tire. Otherwise you picked the wrong brand for your taste.

Bernie

[70rivme]

EmTee, my '70 rides great with the new 1" lowered springs, the only questionable part was the rear shocks. I removed the Bilsteins and installed the Gabriel Classics, just got finished with my extended test drive and the car is awesome! It doesn't float all over like it did stock, it's firmer, but not harsh in the slightest way and has great road feel. Hope this helps with your question on the ride quality in your last post. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

[EmTee]

I concur with the sway bar assessment - they should reduce body roll with little to no effect to straight-line ride and handling.  Sway bars with poly bushings sounds like one mod I should make.  I like the way my car sits now, however, I know the springs are tired because someone has installed those 'twist-in' cast aluminum spacers in the front coil springs (and I think it still sits probably 1" lower than new).  What I'd like to avoid is installing new 'stock' springs and having the car sit up like a 4x4...  Are there stock-spec springs that others have used with good results?  Another question: Has anyone boxed their rear control arms?  It seems a heavy car like this would benefit from that modification as its effect, like the sway bars, should only be felt in the corners.

 

Make no mistake; I love this car for what it is.  I am not trying to make this into an autocross car.  All I am looking for is more positive response with less 'jello' when changing direction.  As I said up front, it may be that just rebuilding the suspension gets me 90% there.  I'm looking for recommendations for components that others have used and would recommend - noting that my prime directive here is to not spoil the straight-line signature Riviera ride.

[RoadShark]

One tip with poly bushings:  I had polygraphite bushings all around in my daily-driven '68 Biscayne.  I took powdered graphite that I got from the hardware store and mixed it with the thick silicone grease they give you for assembly.  Never had a squeak.  My Chevelle, that had regular polyurethane bushings and no graphite, squeaked so loud it raised eyebrows.

 

I believe the lower rear arms are common with A-bodies.  I haven't measured or confirmed this.  If true, you would have a large selection of boxed arms to chose from.  GM sure believed in boxing the arms and did so from the factory on some models.  I put tubular arms with poly bushings in.  That way I can put my stock arms on the shelf.  None of the mods I have done to my car can't be undone.  I've kept all of the stock parts.

 

Fresh rubber bushing in the front will probably be a very noticeable improvement.  I'm putting a new stock-ratio Lares steering box in.  I probably should have went with a quicker ratio, but I would imagine the updated box will be a welcome change from the tired original.

 

I'm not expecting to autocross either, however I do enjoy some spirited driving on the backroads here, and they are twisty-turny with plenty of bumps.  Regardless of what others have said, that 3/4" sway bar is woefully undersized for maximizing enjoyment of the latest radial tires.  The windowed, rubber rear track bar bushings allow for a lot of body-to frame movement before compressing.  All of this is fine if you want that signature Buick ride, but this thing looks like a big luxury sports car to me and I want a little "sport" in my car.

[EmTee]

Thanks, RoadShark - I'll definitely check into the possibility of A-body rear control arm interchange.

 

3 hours ago, RoadShark said:

"... but this thing looks like a big luxury sports car to me and I want a little "sport" in my car."

 

Amen!

[60FlatTop]

There is a story that Bill Mitchell wanted to build the boat tail Riviera design on an A body platform and make it more performance related. At the time it would have gone head to head or replaced the popular GS cars. It didn't happen but the story stuck in my mind over the years. About 2004 I bought my first of two Jaguar XJS V-12's. I bought it long distance and had it delivered to my house in a trailer. At the time I had dealer plates and as soon as the hauler left I pulled out of the driveway and eased about half way into the throttle. My first thought was "Wow! This is the car Bill Mitchell wanted to build." It felt like a Buick, a British one. You know it weighs 4000+ pounds, it's tight, quiet, smooth, pulls great, has IRS, rack and pinion; all those modifications proposed and even the ones that are a stretch. If you haven't tried one out, do it. Everything you want is there and refined. I think it's a lot easier with less sorting. And they really, really feel like driving a Buick.

 

That might be more satisfying in the end. I'm kind of looking for a third. I sold the others. Handling, I bought a 1959 Austin-Healey  Sprite three weeks ago, I guess that's handling.... like a skate board. My wife is laughing at me.

Bernie

[EmTee]

11 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

"... It felt like a Buick, a British one. You know it weighs 4000+ pounds, it's tight, quiet, smooth, pulls great, has IRS, rack and pinion; all those modifications proposed and even the ones that are a stretch. If you haven't tried one out, do it. Everything you want is there and refined. I think it's a lot easier with less sorting. And they really, really feel like driving a Buick."

 

Hmmm, the E-Type and Riviera is an interesting comparison.  Maybe some day I'll get the opportunity to sample one and see for myself.  In the meantime I'm looking to make my 'Goldie' run and drive as she did (or maybe a wee bit better) than she did 50 years ago.  I love the look of this car and like I said, the suspension is tired and needs to be renewed.  I am just hoping to order the right pieces based on the experience of others who have gone before.

[60FlatTop]

The XJS is a comparison to a Buick. The E-Type is a whole different animal. Had one of those, as well. It's a sports car. The XJS is a mid-priced touring car.

 

The key is not to skimp on the springs. In the mid-1980's I ordered a set of $50 rear springs from J. C. Whitney. They were way too high. In the early 1990's when I did the car again, I used rears from a spring specialty company that were about $190 as I remember and perfect. MOOG from NAPA went on the from and set fine. They were around $100.

Bernie

 

 

[EmTee]

Oh, the XJS makes sense -- I read an article in one of the Hemmings magazines recently where they actually compared the pull of the V-12 to a big-block Buick.  Yes, I am looking for recommendations on sources for springs that others have liked.