Beemon Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Does such a thing exist? I was asking some questions about voltage regulators on some 60s and 70s+ cars and the 70s+ cars were all mostly transistorized while the mid 60s were still partially mechanical, like the 50s and prior. The reason I ask is because last night, the generator stopped charging. I had my girlfriend in the car watching the charge indicator while I went and checked every connection in the charging system... the car only started charging after I hit the voltage regulator with a screw driver handle. This regulator is only a year old now and unfortunately in my ignorance I did not keep the original unit (it had an adjusting knob on it, too. ) I don't think it would be difficult to put the electronics inside the housing of a vintage voltage regulator, but I'm not very good with electronics - my teaching is limited to capacitors and resistors. I always wondered why no one has done it commercially, but then I guess that would be an excuse not to sell a cheaply made $100 regulator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I have never had the need to do that, but back in the early 1980's I put a Buick 350 drive train into a '60 Ford pickup using an internally regulated GM alternator. All I needed was a switched wire from the ignition and a jumper between the two plug posts. Seems like one of those internal regulators could be externally mounted on a board and a post for a #10 wire to do the same thing; shouldn't be hard to do. The $100 dollar regulator comment is making me smile. My Son is a big conspiracy fan. I tell him conspiracy theories give far too much credit to the supposed conspirators. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: The $100 dollar regulator comment is making me smile. My Son is a big conspiracy fan. I tell him conspiracy theories give far too much credit to the supposed conspirators. Bernie Well there is some truth to it, I remember the old one (it was trashed) weighed much more than the new one I got from Kanter. Anyways, I found out that the 1969-1974 Volkswagen Beetle used 12VN generators at about 30 amps and Bosch actually makes a solid state voltage regulator for it. I'm a bit curious, but it looks small enough to stash inside an old VR case with some small jumper wires to the terminals. I'm a bit hesitant at $65 price tag, or if it will even work with the original system. There doesn't seem to be anything else otherwise, and if you want solid state, you have to go to an alternator more or less... Edit: Found the old stuff, what wasted potential... somewhere in a landfill... Edited June 30, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Beemon said: Does such a thing exist? I was asking some questions about voltage regulators on some 60s and 70s+ cars and the 70s+ cars were all mostly transistorized while the mid 60s were still partially mechanical, like the 50s and prior. The reason I ask is because last night, the generator stopped charging. I had my girlfriend in the car watching the charge indicator while I went and checked every connection in the charging system... the car only started charging after I hit the voltage regulator with a screw driver handle. This regulator is only a year old now and unfortunately in my ignorance I did not keep the original unit (it had an adjusting knob on it, too. ). Classic! If smacking it did the trick, then you had stuck points. Remember, old-school regulators have arcs jumping across points just like old school distributors do. It's not the end of the world, just open it up and use a points file to clean them up. No, the new ones aren't as easily adjustable is old school regulators were, but they can be adjusted. You just have to bend metal instead of turning screws. Or, you can install a 12SI... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I havnt looked, but I have never heard of a solid state GENERATOR regulator and not sure they actually make one, but I could be wrong. The size of the diodes for the D+ to B+ connection would be large, the voltage regulation would be the same as an alternator set up, but current control would be a big issue as it would require a current sensor circuit (like a shunt type ammeter) tied into the voltage regulator section to cut the field circuit for over current as well In your picture there Beemon, you have 1 generator regulator, the other 2 are hard to tell as they may be alternator voltage regulators, but look more like relays (starter/horn) to me, at least the one on the left does, the one on the right has a shadow across the terminals, so I cant quite see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I'm going to back pedal a little bit. If it was not charging, the air gap on the reverse current cutout may be too large. Smacking it may have helped it close. We bought a new regulator years ago, and it didn't turn on until over 14v. I think the spec is 7-10v. Easy fix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Ttotired said: I havnt looked, but I have never heard of a solid state GENERATOR regulator and not sure they actually make one, but I could be wrong. The size of the diodes for the D+ to B+ connection would be large, the voltage regulation would be the same as an alternator set up, but current control would be a big issue as it would require a current sensor circuit (like a shunt type ammeter) tied into the voltage regulator section to cut the field circuit for over current as well In your picture there Beemon, you have 1 generator regulator, the other 2 are hard to tell as they may be alternator voltage regulators, but look more like relays (starter/horn) to me, at least the one on the left does, the one on the right has a shadow across the terminals, so I cant quite see it In the picture, it's the starter relay, voltage regulator and horn relay. I posted above the only thing I could find was a bosch electronic voltage regulator for a 1970 Volkswagen beetle. Apparently they had it figured out. As far as adjusting goes, the case is riveted or spot welded to the base. I can't pull it apart and play with it at the moment because I need the car as is to get around at the moment. I was on the fence about an alternator conversion until last night. The foreman (grandpa) told me it was in my best interest to go to an alternator. He apparently had many charging issues, hence the adjustable voltage regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Just buy a new one: THIS and don't look back. I have one just like it on my 55 for 4 years and 40,000 miles. 20 years ago I had some original Delco regulators converted to solid state and they worked good but both eventually stopped working and when opened there were blown components. I replaced the blown parts on one and had it working for awhile and finally gave up. There were some diodes (one large with a heat sink), resistors and transistors and a pot for adjustment. I still have them if someone else want to play with them and maybe reverse engineer them. They both stopped working at the same time as the generator was defective: once with a shorted field and another time with a bad armature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 This is an old post but of interest dealing with this subject..........on a 6v vehicle http://www.1928chevrolet.com/articles/voltreg.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kanman Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Beemon" I believe if you do not drive your car a lot it sets the points on the regulator tend to stick.if you take the cover off the regulator use a point file and file the points not too much just get the rust off them it will probably serve you for quite some time.then you can forget about spending the $100. for a new one for awhile.That,s my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 20 hours ago, Beemon said: As far as adjusting goes, the case is riveted or spot welded to the base. I can't pull it apart and play with it at the moment because I need the car as is to get around at the moment. I was on the fence about an alternator conversion until last night. The foreman (grandpa) told me it was in my best interest to go to an alternator. He apparently had many charging issues, hence the adjustable voltage regulator. I'd take another look at that regulator. There should be 2 screws to pop the cover off. An un-adjustable voltage regulator is a paperweight. Points wear, fact of life. It's a regular maintenance item. Seriously, it should be a 5 minute operation to check and adjust the cut-out air gap on the car. The Borg that Tank linked to looks like a steal, though. You know how I feel about our alternator conversion, my only regret is uglyness. Nothing sucks more that getting 45 miles from home when you are headed to a car show 80 miles away, and turning around because you know you'll have to drive home in the dark and you can't get the regulator to turn the generator on because you left the screwdrivers at home. Ok, there are worse things... I lost a water pump in Kalamazoo 2 weekends ago... but that's a story for another time. I had pondered the easiest way to mount up a 12SI for a long time before we found our generator bracket was broken. Our approach changed considerably once we decided we didn't care about keeping the bracket original. As a general rule we try to keep the car as original as possible, but if there are things we can do that increase the fun factor without changing the look, it's worth considering. Hi-Fi tunes from my iPod is more fun than news radio on AM (although I do actually like working on tubesets). Punching the gas and the wipers not quitting while passing a semi in the rain is more fun than driving blind at 70 mph. Driving down the road at night is more fun than staying home after dark and cursing the electrical system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 (edited) I literally have to drill out the rivets. I re polarized the generator today to see if that was the issue and it seemed to charge better (14.2 vs 13.6) but not by a whole lot. I haven't experienced a no charge issue since I tapped it so I'm going to let it sit for now. Edited July 2, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Wow, that's terrible. I don't understand why anyone would build such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 That's how they're all built these days I guess. I had one ordered in from NAPA just so I could take a look at it today and it was the same. The one that's on there now was from Kanter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Somewhere, some time, some of the aftermarket voltage regulator brands started doing the earlier regulators to look the same, but have electronic guts inside. Won't know until you open it up. Gotta' have your priorities in place for "Fun with older cars!" Rain-X can help see when the wiper arms stop moving. I don't recall, in the "tools needed" thread, anybody mentioning a pair or two of magnetic mount hand-held LED lights. NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Beemon: In these mechanical regulator systems the generator voltage should be between 13.8 and 14.1 volts for a fully charged good battery. When you go higher than 14.2 volts it could cause the battery electrolyte to boil off faster. Having to add distilled water frequently is a sign of the generator overcharging. If you decide to dress the points in the regulator be sure to disconnect one terminal from the battery and just go easy with the point file. Good luck. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2_willys Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) Building the "guts" for an electronic regulator is not all that difficult. Make it short and sweet, a switch-mode voltage regulator ic will work fine for both voltage and current regulation, and when connected to a pass transistor the transistor will not allow the battery to drive the generator when engine is off. I have worked on a universal 6 or 12 volt, pos or neg ground circuit, however my time and money are limited at this time. Some time in the future I will finish it up and have one of my friends try it on one of his 12v pos ground Brit cars. (Lucas regulators are more weird than our American units) Another point to be made is that normally there is a capacitor across the battery to ground on the regulator. This helps reduce arcing in those old style units. Edited July 6, 2016 by d2_willys (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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