$1100 spent on 57 power brake booster..& still dont work

[coupekid]

my problem is my other Buick 57` with power brakes ..can u believe i spent $1100 on the Moraine Brake power booster unit the other day re sleeving it with new kit etc & the pedal still goes near the floor ...Ive taken this damn thing in & out 5 times now & just returned it to 2 different brake proffessionals again & again .. hell im so mad !! ..they said they will come to my house if it didnt work after stainless steel sleeving it becos they said it was scored inside & plunge rod rusted  yet it still dont work as it should  ..it still works as bad before sleeving it. my 57 with manual brakes work way better !!...on the power brake unit  the check valve works fine..with teriffic vacuum , no leaks in wheel cylinders or from fittings ..brakes have been bled countless times  with good flow & with no air in lines ...i have fitted new lines & hoses, vacuum tank holds good pressure.. each wheel adjusted so brake shoes make slight contact...brakes work fine once pedal near hits floor but i cant fit my lil finger under pedal when brakes are applied !! ..the pedal feels it has no pressure .......even more so when car is started ... pedal is adjusted to sit just slightly further forward from accellerator position..so how far should pedal be from floor on these power systems when i have applied the brake  ?

 

                                                                                     ..Damn im mad atm !!!! Cursing the sun & howling at the moon  Grrrrrrrr... woof woof !! 

Edited September 13, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history)

[61polara]

Just a basic thought, have you adjusted the brake shoe?.  That controls the amount of travel before the brakes start to hold.  Also, how did you adjust the height of the pedal.  I was not aware they are adjustable.

Edited September 13, 2015 by 61polara (see edit history)

[coupekid]

yes i did mention the brake shoes have been adjusted so when wheel is spun contact with shoe can be heard... you can adjust the pedal at the master cyl  push rod end when it screws into pedal frame linkage eye situated under dash.the more you turn the rod into the linkage holder the further the brake pedal heads towards the floor..its not an easy job turning the rod once booster is fitted to firewall its easier to unbolt booster so it hangs somewhat ...& thus the push rod does not make contact with push rod booster neck housing..taking the booster out isnt an easy job ..its why im really really angry atm (taking this out 5 times in 2 weeks) anyhow`s.. its easier to get in the engine bay&  spin the booster counter clockwise than undoing the large packing nut at the booster neck housing under the dash  & located above the inner pedal frame  this method also undoes the Master cylinder push rod from the linkage eye at the same time..otherwise you need baby hands omg... woof &@^*&$  now im gettin Terrets with neck jerking action ..im so mad !!!  these brake proffessionals need to be held accountable for their costings regarding the remanufactured product. i can tell you that the brake fluid is not being compressed within the chamber !!  bottomline !!!

[buick5563]

I know one of the "professionals" work. He is terrible.

Bob Beck will hopefully chime in, since he has more first hand knowledge on fixing the unfixable.

[JohnD1956]

Sounds like Shadetree77's former situation, where the hole in the sleeve for the compensation port was never drilled. One question if I may. When you say the brake pedal is just foreward of the accelerator, do you mean closer to the floor or closer to the steering wheel?

[Bhigdog]

A couple of things to question: Do you have a firm high pedal with the engine off (no vacuum)? Does the pedal drop about 2" or so with foot pressure applied and you start the engine? How did your professionals re-sleeve the master cylinder with SS when it is a displacement type system and there is no cylinder, per se, to sleeve or re-sleeve? Might also ask them for an itemized statement explaining how they managed to run up an $1100 bill. You might also pull all the drums and make sure all is in good order there. In fact that's where I would start.

The book says resting pedal hight should be 5 1/2" from floor and infers a pedal as low as 1" from floor is permissible. .........Bob

[buick man]

my problem is my other Buick 57` with power brakes ..can u believe i spent $1100 on the Moraine Brake power booster unit the other day re sleeving it with new kit etc & the pedal still goes near the floor ...Ive taken this damn thing in & out 5 times now & just returned it to 2 different brake proffessionals again & again .. hell im so mad !! ..they said they will come to my house if it didnt work after stainless steel sleeving it becos they said it was scored inside & plunge rod rusted  yet it still dont work as it should  ..it still works as bad before sleeving it. my 57 with manual brakes work way better !!...on the power brake unit  the check valve works fine..with teriffic vacuum , no leaks in wheel cylinders or from fittings ..brakes have been bled countless times  with good flow & with no air in lines ...i have fitted new lines & hoses, vacuum tank holds good pressure.. each wheel adjusted so brake shoes make slight contact...brakes work fine once pedal near hits floor but i cant fit my lil finger under pedal when brakes are applied !! ..the pedal feels it has no pressure .......even more so when car is started ... pedal is adjusted to sit just slightly further forward from accellerator position..so how far should pedal be from floor on these power systems when i have applied the brake  ?

 

                                                                                     ..Damn im mad atm !!!! Cursing the sun & howling at the moon  Grrrrrrrr... woof woof !! 

 

O.K., O.K.  Look Johnny:  I have to ask you.  Just what and where exactly do you think or did these characters tell you  a Moraine unit of this particular vintage needed to have a " Bore and Sleeve "  job?

 

Scored inside ?  Really, just where would the rod be scored so one would need to bore and sleeve it ?   Impossible.

 

There is no where on this Moraine unit where one would bore and sleeve.  Period.  The push rod rides in rubber washered bushings.  The rod never contacts any metal anywhere along it's shaft.  Just like a key on a trumpet baby.

 

 

 

The hydraulic side of things:  The plunger displaces the volume it takes up in the master cylinder chamber itself in a volume cave like environment.  The push rod shaft is guided and trued by rubber bushings.  There is absolutely no cylinder or bore in which the assumed cylinder would or could ride in.  There is no " Plunger" or " Piston" that would require a bore.  

 

On the Vacuum Chamber side of things:  The vacuum chamber consists of a spring expanded leather plunger that rides inside the 5 inch diameter chamber.  It glides inside like a trombone key.  

 

Before I rebuilt my unit myself, the various out there were telling me they had to re-sleeve the hydraulic unit.  I studied the shop blow out diagrams and thought " what bore and where ? " Then I decided to do the rebuild myself.  I was right.  There are no areas that require boring or sleeving in a Moraine unit setup.  The wheel cylinders yes because the have the typical plunger type piston that rides in a bore.  But the Moraine unit of this particular vintage uses the concept of volume displacement thereby eliminating the problem of wear that a cylinder/bore setup will always ensue. 

 

Take the unit, put it in a vise in your shop and take it apart.  Photograph it as you disassemble it step by step.  If need be  look up my starting  brake rebuild I posted sometime back in june of last year.  I never got around to finishing it but it has great photos of the tear down process and the components as removed.

 

If the spring loaded leather plunger in the vacuum chamber is not set right in travel you will get problems in pedal pressure and travel.  Ie, no power brake action.  Also before removing make sure you run back to the rear wheels and see what kinda brake fluid bleed pressure you have.  Have someone sit in the car with the engine running, emergency brake off and in park.  Have them apply modest foot pressure to the pedal while you loosen the bleed zerk and see what kind of bleed pressure you have at the furthest wheel to confirm that the unit is at least working.  If no real bleed fluid pressure then the problem is in the vacuum chamber adjustment and seals.  This would be my guess.

 

Then report back to us.

[coupekid]

Thanks for the info :  To John D..toward the steering wheel ..

To bhig-   whilst eng is off the pedal is a lil firmer  but pedal still goes to the floor , when i start engine the  pedal does drop with more ease to the  floor...

Buick-man- i appreciate your efforts  Im guessing these fools sleeved the 5" vacuum chamber where the leather plunger rides in   ...anyhows  Today i was told by the first brake proffessional  whos coming tommorow to solve this problem  & he said that my system is not functioning properly because im not suppose to push brake pedal to the floor when bleeding (which i have been doing) ...im suppose to press pedal half way when bleeding ..   so ..   see what happens tomorrow  i will mention to him what exactly did they sleeve in this unit to cost so much  .. thankyou  to you all for your efforts..  & cheers !

Edited September 14, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Lots of good info so far.

Pump the brake pedal with the engine off; if it comes up there is still air in the system.  If the brake shoes are new adjust to the point that you can't turn the wheel, then back off six clicks.  Drive the car a few miles with lots of braking and even some 'riding' the brakes, then repeat the adjustment and see what you have.  

[coupekid]

Thanks ..Old Tank  !  im going to try that next !! .. 6 clicks you say ??? .i had the brake fella who put the booster together the first time come over & bring 2 clamps to clamp off both front hoses & i then had pedal pressure ...he told me i need to adjust brake shoes till i cant spin  the wheel  then back it off only 2 clicks on the adjuster ... i too told him it should be about 6 but he said no ..only 2 clicks ...im thinking ,isnt that alot of brake drag ?? ...& why dont my non-power manual brakes on my other buick need to be adjusted so close that the shoes drag against the inner drum???   its a weird set up these power brakes

Edited September 15, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history)

[coupekid]

Buick-man & Bhig-Dog here is the response i received from Power brakes Ltd...  sent with exploded view pic of points sleeved

 

                                                                                       

 

 

Hello John,

 

I can understand your concern if you believe that we have sleeved a master cylinder that usually would not require sleeving. While in principal you are correct in the fact that if the seals are stationary in the bore then the critical wearing surface would be between the seal and the piston. However in your case, the corrosion in your master cylinder was significant including the three surfaces where the seals sit. The master cylinder end nut has two sealing surfaces (A & B and the master cylinder body has a third sealing surface ©. See attached PDF. In your case stainless steel sleeving these areas was the only way to salvage a master cylinder that otherwise would be discarded. Because of the age of these units we find that we need to sleeve about one in every five of these Delco Moraine master cylinder bodies and or nuts.

 

Your situation was further complicated by the fact that your master cylinder shaft was also badly corroded and required replacing. Furthermore, using the original shaft with the new seals would have compromised their sealing edge which required us to use a fresh kit.

 

As you can see John, the costs are escalating, but there is no alternative as these units are no longer available.

 

The breakdown on your unit is as follows....

 

Stainless steel sleeve master cylinder end nut (2 surfaces A & B $155.30

Stainless steel sleeve master cylinder (sleeve C) $141.25

New master cylinder shaft $172.90

KPBM1063 kit $199.10

Labour 3.5 hours $353.85

 

Total $1022.40

Edited September 15, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

I can buy his explaination of work accomplished. I'm kind of floored at the kit price though. Hopefully this will solve your problem, shame it had to be so pricey. keep us advised.........Bob

[lancemb]

I am impressed at the prompt response and thorough explanation. It is pricey, but this may possibly be an example of getting what you pay for. However, the kit price is sky high as mentioned.

Edited September 15, 2015 by lancemb (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Thanks ..Old Tank  !  im going to try that next !! .. 6 clicks you say ??? .i had the brake fella who put the booster together the first time come over & bring 2 clamps to clamp off both front hoses & i then had pedal pressure ...he told me i need to adjust brake shoes till i cant spin  the wheel  then back it off only 2 clicks on the adjuster ... i too told him it should be about 6 but he said no ..only 2 clicks ...im thinking ,isnt that alot of brake drag ?? ...& why dont my non-power manual brakes on my other buick need to be adjusted so close that the shoes drag against the inner drum???   its a weird set up these power brakes

2 clicks only to drive around the block to see if that removed some edges on new shoes.  6 clicks works for me on my power brake cars with the shoes I use.  Some shoes that swell in service may need more than 6 clicks.  The 55 service manual says 12 clicks and that is what I use on the manual brake cars --- seems tomake the self energizing feature of the bendix system more efficient.

Willie

[buick man]

Johnny:  Thanks for the update.

 

In regards to your tech's explanation and details.  These surfaces @ A, B, & C respectively are the casting surfaces that each respective bushing unit sets/seats into.  There should noted here that these are monolithic casting surfaces bored out at the time of creation at the factory to enable the acceptance of the factory installed metal/rubber bushing.  There is however, no area for cause of wear n tear in these bores from usage as would be the case in a cylinder / bore scenario. These areas just seat these aforementioned separate bushing assemblies and anchor them so they can do their job of carrying and guiding the plunger shaft.  If by chance these areas become pitied, then what they techs do is over bore the original factory cast seat circumference and insert a calibrated sleeve to accommodate the amount of original casting material removed, then replacement of a new steel/rubber busing is installed. IF the casting is not corroded then one would only have to install a new steel/rubber bushing at each location.  A new push rod plunger would be indicated if the original has pit corroded .  

 

Since there is absolutely no torque or frictional wear and tear on these bores since they serve only as a seat and not as a seal, any surface pitting can be filled with a quality catalyzed filling epoxy and smoothed true with an adjustable Fostners bit the exact same size as the original bore itself.  One can also construct and cut an aluminum sleeve for smoothing purposes out of a small sheet of aluminum which is then inserted into the bore in question and used as a true smoothing and leveling tool. 

 

The rebuild kits I have used cost around $ 250 and in the past have included a shaft/plunger.  The dust cover that is now provided with the kits I know of, are the incorrect size in length and bore in relationship to that of the plunger neck, so one has to outsource the correct size dust boot while tossing the one that comes in the kit.

 

This is why it is important that one disassemble their master brake unit and inspect it before deciding to out source the rebuild.  If one finds that no pitting of these seat surfaces has occurred, a simple straight forward kit installation rebuild is called for which can be performed on your shop bench.  If the most other probable scenario emerges, i.e.. light surface pitting it will most likely be only to the stage that filler epoxy will adequately serve to do the job very well at a cost of about $ 8.00.  On the other hand and only if by chance, the corrosion has indeed reached a level of catastrophically deep corrosion, then of course new sleeve/seat insertion(s) would be called for.  At least this way one would maintain control over costs and services needed.  One could also possibly call upon a local known machine shop in your area and ask them to quote what it would take to bore and press a sleeve into any of the three areas of concern.

 

. . . Just Some Food For Thought

Edited September 16, 2015 by buick man (see edit history)

[coupekid]

Thanks BuickMan  that indeed is good food for thought !! ..I do normally like to restore everything myself  .i dont restore engines& transmissions & boosters ..& when you take these type of jobs into these proffessional rebuilding firms its difficult to ascertain a cost till they pull the unit apart & as you can see @ over $100 an Hr  for labour  they are  allready in your wallet  &  thats what this world needs more of ...brake booster rebuilders & lawyers !! .  it would of been a smarter  move to probably have purchased an already rebuilt unit  for $450 listed on ebay whom do rebuild these units   ... the Mob i took to have this rebuilt sell the 57-8 Moraine Booster mastercylinder for $2000.00

Im also now  Using a Dot 5 silicone brake fluid to prevent water absorbtion  & it offers a longer life & is non corrosion to internal rubbers..   using any other type of brake fluids &  i find that every 7 years i have to re-kit my master cylinder due to either  rust from water absorbtion  or leaks from rubber perforation.

 

Now for the good news ,, I Finally have pedal pressure & ........ brakes !!    after adjusting the shoes to the inner drum & backed off slightly this car now stops !!

I wish to thankyou all for your help & insight .. truly appreciate it ..!!

Edited September 16, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history)

[61polara]

Johnnybuick,  glad you have brakes now.  It's a good group of guys on here, all with good experience.  It looks like your problem was identified in post #2.  Sounds like your rebuilder did a good job for you.  Stay on here with us as you progress in your project.

[buick man]

Good to hear that Johnny.  

 

For what it's worth here is some little fact-toes I have found over the years regarding this topic.  

 

As we all realize, Dot 5 is not hygroscopic ( does not absorb water ) however, so as the moisture enters the system, and it will through atmosphere, usage heat cycles etc., it is not absorbed by the fluid like with DOT 3 or 4.  This results in beads of moisture moving through your system lines and collecting in critical areas.  This collected moisture will boil and can cause vapor lock and lost of braking when using a calipers system.

 

More importantly however, DOT 5 fluid is highly compressible due to aeration and foaming under normal braking conditions causing a spongy brake feel.  Therefore DOT 5 is best used in stationary show/museum cars where it's anticorrosion properties both on components and paint are most important .  If silicone is introduced into an older brake stem, the silicone will latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deteriorations and create a gelatin like goop which will attract more curd and eventually plug up metering orifices and or cause pistons to stick. This is why if converting over to DOT 5 the entire system components lines and all be virgin new.   If you have already changed to DOT 5, one should not compound their initial mistake and change back.  Silicone is very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system regardless of the flushing method or material used.  Just change the fluid regularly since since moisture/water will still collect in the components and settle there but not within the fluid itself like with DOT 3 or 4.  Silicon also causes deterioration to other silicone rubber external components such as piston boots, caliper boots, etc which are attacked by silicon fluids and greases. 

[Restorer32]

We would never again buy a rebuilt booster. We recently went thru 3 supposedly rebuilt boosters before we got a good one for a '54 Caddy. The customer insisted on buying the rebuilt units because they were cheaper but any savings were eaten up by the labor to change out the booster 3 times.

[Bhigdog]

I've used DOT 5 in all my old cars with both drum and discs for years. I have had ZERO problems, corrosion or leaking pitted wheel cylinders with it.  It's been in my Vette  for 20 years. When I used DOT 3 in the Vette the brake caliper bores corroded and leaked necessitating sleeving with SS. Of the 6 vehicles I've restored they had all used DOT 3. EVERY wheel and master cylinder on all of them was rusty and pitted to some degree.

I can look into my master cylinders using DOT 5 and the fluid is still clear and sludge free after years and when I do need to perform brake work I don't have to worry about getting DOT 3 paint remover on finished surfaces.................Bob

Edited September 17, 2015 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[buick man]

Good for you Bob and glad to hear that.  Our details above were taken from a dissertation by an engineer in the braking and brake testing and design field.  It is science based and discusses the plus and negative sides of using DOT 5.  Atmospheric vapor and  condensation is still present in all systems unless operated in a vacuum and the water has to go somewhere.  DOT 3 & 4 should not be a problem if flushed every year since 3 % moisture will accumulate in that time frame even if just from sitting.  

[Bhigdog]

Good for you Bob and glad to hear that.  Our details above were taken from a dissertation by an engineer in the braking and brake testing and design field.  It is science based and discusses the plus and negative sides of using DOT 5.  Atmospheric vapor and  condensation is still present in all systems unless operated in a vacuum and the water has to go somewhere.  DOT 3 & 4 should not be a problem if flushed every year since 3 % moisture will accumulate in that time frame even if just from sitting.  

 

I have no doubt DOT 5's short comings are valid from an engineering and theoretical standpoint and may be relevant in an extreme duty application but in family car type usage they just aren't meaningful, or for that matter, even noticeable. The only drawbacks I've found with DOT 5 is it's propensity to leak requiring a very tight system and it's higher cost. The higher cost, however, is quickly amortized by it's lack of need for annual changes and brake component longevity...........Bob