rsteere

Help needed for the value of a '64 KX coded car?

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Thanks Ed, will certainly try and attain this info from the seller. The seller says that the car had a restoration in the early 90's but believes the 50k mileage (seems very low to me) to be accurate. Cheers, Scott

 

Why would a 50K car need to be restored?  Unless it was neglected or abused, most 50 year old cars with 50K  on the clock are still in very good shape.   Once again, I'm not trying to discourage you.  Give yourself some time to sleep on this.  Just make an educated decision based on fact, not fancy.

 

If this one doesn't pan out, another one will.  This must be a U.S. car otherwise, you would have stated that the odometer reading would have been in Kilometers.  50 KM is what in miles?  Somewhere around 31,000.  What does it take to get a U.S. car into Canada?  If I were you, I'd be trying to disprove the facts rather than believing them so that I could negotiate a much better price.  If the seller won't let the car stand on it's own, I'd take that as a sign as well.

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Ed, as you can probably tell, I'm the kind of person that does a lot of research before spending my money which is why I posted the information on this site for feedback. I have read a boat load of the topics here and on other sites and it's obvious you like to help but I'm just looking for good sound information to support my decision making process. Thank you, Scott

Edited by CultusRider (see edit history)

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These aren't great photos, but were included in the listing for the car;

The front carb appears to be `64 correct but the linkage looks at least partially repro. The rear carb is certainly not correct and the fuel fitting in the front carb is typical of a cobbled together setup. Dont know anything about the car in question but these are things which stand out to me in the pics

  Tom Mooney

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Hi Ed, thanks for chiming in. Here is the website link and pasted below is the specific info from this page I was referring to. Looking forward to hearing what you think, and others too of course :), Scott

 

The last iteration of the Nailhead was the 425 cubic inch model with its larger 4.3125" bore, but same stroke as the 401. It was introduced in 1963 where it began as an option on the new Riviera. It was later available on the Wildcat and Electra models as well. Surprisingly, the 1964 and 1966 Riviera had the 425 engine as standard, but in 1965, the standard Riviera returned to the 401. Four barrel carburation was standard on all 425 Nailheads, called the "Wildcat 465". That "465" sticker on the air cleaner did not denote engine displacement as many thought, it denoted the torque rating, which Buick was very proud of, since it overshadowed almost every other V8 of the time.

 

The 425 was considered a true performance engine by Buick, and in 1964 it was possible to order a two 4 barrel carb intake, which was delivered in the trunk along with the the special 4-barrel carbs, to be installed by the dealer. In 1965 it was called "Super Wildcat" and it was standard as a factory installed option on the 1965 Riviera Gran Sport and the 1966 Wildcat "GS". The 2-4s were still a "trunk option" for the rest of the Buick line for most of 1966. In May 1966, Buick offered this Super Wildcat 465 with dual 4BBL Carter AFB's as a factory installed option on all 425 equipped Buicks, except for the Skylark GS where it was a dealer install on the 401. This is a very sought after option for restorers as it adds a bit of cache to the vehicle and is acceptable due to the "dealer installation" option.

Just some quick notes regarding this article....

 

* the Super Wildcat was available as a factory installed option in `64

*dont quite know what "standard as a factory installed option" means?

* the `65 Riviera GS was equipped with the Super Wildcat as part of the GS option

* the Super Wildcat was a factory installed option beginning in March `66 on the Riviera GS and Wildcat GS. After the `65 model year and before this date dealer installation was provided for.

* I have never witnessed any documentation that the Super Wildcat equipment was placed in the trunk by the factory for dealer installation. Even the Zone guided installation of this option in `66 required the dealer to order the parts thru regular channels. If someone has primary documentation I`d very much appreciate seeing it.

 

Hope this helps clear up any mis-information in the article

 

 Tom Mooney

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Just a question,would the dealer installed 2x4 include exhaust,and dist,air cleaner.etc?

As far as I know the larger Gran Sport exhaust was only available as part of the Gran Sport option and that was only available in '65. on.  If you're asking about having a dealer add a 2x4 set up, then if all of the correct parts were ordered through the parts department, the two correct carburetors, intake manifold, air cleaner,  valve covers,  unique rear bracket for the a/c compressor, kickdown bracket, and distributor would have to be ordered.  The exhaust pipes were probably not in the parts book in '64.

 

Once again I start this with "as far as I know" there was never a quote / unquote dealer installed option for the 2x4 set up. I've never seen any literature advertising it.  Someone would have to have seen one on a car and then ordered all the parts individually to make a set up like this.  If you're purchasing a 64 or 65, and there is not a KX or LX stamped into the block, then without proper documentation, you should assume that the "package" is owner installed, not dealer installed.  That's where checking casting numbers and dates comes into play as well.  Date codes on an owner installed set up could be all over the calendar.  Year to year will be easier to ascertain if there are any irregularities.

 

Ed

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Thanks Ed and Tom for your replies and recommendations, truly appreciated. To provide everyone with the opportunity to explore this car and listing, and potentially join in on the interesting and investigative collaboration, here is a link to the listing in Tennessee. I have found the owner of the car to be a good communicator and nice person. And although he has said he will, as of this morning he has not yet provided me with any updated photos as the car sits today (all of the photos I have are dated from 2013 and back to 2007) and he has yet to provide the information (#'s) requested as recommended by you gentlemen. He states he has known the car for at least 20 years, maybe more, and believes the repaint in original colors happened some 30 years ago. He states that the car has been driven sparingly for the last 25 years, accounting for the low mileage, but cannot provide any supporting documentation to validate the 50k miles. If there are any first generation ROA or other experts willing to go look at the car and meet the owner for me / all of us, I would be most thankful!

 

Now back to watching the Panthers taking apart the Seahawks, Scott

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Ed there are other parts that most don't realize are different too.  The Trans vacuum modulator line to the  rear carb is different, as are teh brake booster vacuum line and the chrome spark plug wire holders of going to the alum script rocker covers.  I think the hold down bolts may be different too. The PCV hose may be different also.

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The kind owner of the 64' just sent me via a Google application 39 photos taken this morning so hopefully these links work as I was unable to save the photos to a new file;

 

serial number / vin

carb and manifold info

body by fisher tag

dash - odometer (looks like 49k+ miles)

engine 1

engine 2

engine 3

interior 1

interior 2

interior 3

trunk 1

trunk 2

 

I failed to mentioned that in some of his documents he notes owning the car since 2012,and before that it belonged to a another friend and car collector in Michigan that had bought it around 1992 from the third owner. He also mentions that he connected with the second buyer of the car who stated buying the car in the early 70's from the estate of the original owner, and that the double four bbl carb set up was already on the car and also believed that it was dealer installed. If true, this means that these components were installed during the very early years of the cars existence (for whatever that may be worth, but it seems notable).

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I do not know about a 2x4 set up being placed in the trunk. If factory employees had "connections" and could find out when there car was being build, they would follow it down the line and have little extras put on like AM-FM radio, Fancier hub caps and whatever else could be installed on the fly. Radio inventory in particular had a large shrinkage.

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The engine plant was in a separate area from the chassis line, and both were in a different area than the assembly of the body.  I guess if a guy had a big enough lunch box, anything would be possible.  I only mention lunch box because the 1st husband (late) of my wife's mother-in-law had a reputation for leaving the maintenance facility at the Union Pacific yard in Omaha with a heavier lunch box than he brought in. He had bins of crap that amounted to nothing unless you were trying to build a locomotive at home.

 

Ed

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Couldn't the 2x4 option be ordered at a later date and then installed by the dealer? Just wondering because that doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch, knowing the lengths that car companies went in order to please their customers.

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Couldn't the 2x4 option be ordered at a later date and then installed by the dealer? Just wondering because that doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch, knowing the lengths that car companies went in order to please their customers.

 

 

 All 2 x 4 setups on a Buick, look the same, 64  - 66 except for the California cars..  The Super Wildcat engine was also available on the Wildcat and the Electra for the same years.  The carbs are probably correct for a nailhead as is the manifold and the air cleaner but as I said earlier, you need to get pictures of carb numbers, manifold casting numbers, and distributor number. Then compare them to known standards.  You should also get pictures of the production code number and engine serial number, and make sure that the engine serial number matches the VIN.  That could even be a '65 LX motor in a '64.  Only good quality pictures or an in person visit will yield the truth.

 

Ed

 

 

The front carb appears to be `64 correct but the linkage looks at least partially repro. The rear carb is certainly not correct and the fuel fitting in the front carb is typical of a cobbled together setup. Dont know anything about the car in question but these are things which stand out to me in the pics

  Tom Mooney

 

 

As far as I know the larger Gran Sport exhaust was only available as part of the Gran Sport option and that was only available in '65. on.  If you're asking about having a dealer add a 2x4 set up, then if all of the correct parts were ordered through the parts department, the two correct carburetors, intake manifold, air cleaner,  valve covers,  unique rear bracket for the a/c compressor, kickdown bracket, and distributor would have to be ordered.  The exhaust pipes were probably not in the parts book in '64.

 

Once again I start this with "as far as I know" there was never a quote / unquote dealer installed option for the 2x4 set up. I've never seen any literature advertising it.  Someone would have to have seen one on a car and then ordered all the parts individually to make a set up like this.  If you're purchasing a 64 or 65, and there is not a KX or LX stamped into the block, then without proper documentation, you should assume that the "package" is owner installed, not dealer installed.  That's where checking casting numbers and dates comes into play as well.  Date codes on an owner installed set up could be all over the calendar.  Year to year will be easier to ascertain if there are any irregularities.

 

Ed

 

 

Ed there are other parts that most don't realize are different too.  The Trans vacuum modulator line to the  rear carb is different, as are teh brake booster vacuum line and the chrome spark plug wire holders of going to the alum script rocker covers.  I think the hold down bolts may be different too. The PCV hose may be different also.

 

I agree Darren, and think that between the comments of everyone here we probably have enough baseline info to verify at least the accuracy of the 2x4 installation, if nothing else... and maybe even the time frame of the installation if we also take into consideration the unverified history of the car according to the previous owners. In your guy's opinion, how much time and effort would it be for the owner to provide these answers?

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The kind owner of the 64' just sent me via a Google application 39 photos taken this morning so hopefully these links work as I was unable to save the photos to a new file;

serial number / vin

carb and manifold info

body by fisher tag

dash - odometer (looks like 49k+ miles)

engine 1

engine 2

engine 3

interior 1

interior 2

interior 3

trunk 1

trunk 2

I failed to mentioned that in some of his documents he notes owning the car since 2012,and before that it belonged to a another friend and car collector in Michigan that had bought it around 1992 from the third owner. He also mentions that he connected with the second buyer of the car who stated buying the car in the early 70's from the estate of the original owner, and that the double four bbl carb set up was already on the car and also believed that it was dealer installed. If true, this means that these components were installed during the very early years of the cars existence (for whatever that may be worth, but it seems notable).

Oh, and just wondering if anyone has looked at the carb and intake manifold hand written info provided by the owner?

Edited by cultusrider (see edit history)

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1111055 is incorrect distributor for the dual quad package. That was the standard single carb distributor.

The #3655 rear carb is coming up in several reference searches as 64-66 Cadillac Carb. Maybe someone else can confirm.

Edited by JZRIV (see edit history)

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Found it, a window sticker that I took a picture of in '92 when the BCA was in Overland Park, KS.  This is how a dual four barrel car would have been purchased in 1964.

 

post-93305-0-45981000-1453156058_thumb.j

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1111055 is incorrect distributor for the dual quad package. That was the standard single carb distributor.

The #3655 rear carb is coming up in several reference searches as 64-66 Cadillac Carb. Maybe someone else can confirm.

Found it, a window sticker that I took a picture of in '92 when the BCA was in Overland Park, KS. This is how a dual four barrel car would have been purchased in 1964.

attachicon.gifScan10002.JPG

Excellent info, thanks guys. I have passed along this to the owner as well and directed him to visit this site if he would like to review all of the comments. It seems now my choices since I like things as correct as possible, are don't buy the car (although at around $24-26k if it as clean and low mileage as it appears and the seller certainly seems like someone to be trusted, it could still represent a fair buy?), or buy the car and try to make it a proper 2x4 set up as per factory if possible finding and using all of the parts outlined in this string (how much time, money and effort would that take?), or buy the car and return it to the stock single four barrel set up (might be relatively easy?).... hmmmm,..

Edited by cultusrider (see edit history)

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From the overall condition of the car, it looks like a good buy.  If you're not absolutely sold on having a car with the two four barrel setup, it would be very easy to resort back to original and run a single four barrel Carter AFB or Rochester 4GC.  You'd need to find the manifold, carb, and air cleaner..  If you're not attached to the dual four barrel set up, selling it would pay for your transportation costs, and the cost of finding the items to make it a VERY nice single four barrel 1964 Riviera.

 

Currently there's a '64 dual quad numbers matching car listed on the ROA's website in the "Hot new classifieds."  It's in Minnesota and advertised for $17,000. 

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Oh, and just wondering if anyone has looked at the carb and intake manifold hand written info provided by the owner?

See post #28

  Tom

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Oh, and just wondering if anyone has looked at the carb and intake manifold hand written info provided by the owner?

The rear carb has been indentified as a Cadillac carb, the distributor is a single four barrel item, in addition to Tom's other comments, the manifold date (according to the owner) is 12th day of Aug, but there's no year given,  and the build date of the car is the 3rd week of Jan, '64.  From this information, I'd say that the induction has been pieced together.  Still would be a strong car as a single carb car.

 

Ed

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See post #28

  Tom

And #38 and #40 which is really headed in the right direction to help identify what that rear mystery carb is...

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From the overall condition of the car, it looks like a good buy.  If you're not absolutely sold on having a car with the two four barrel setup, it would be very easy to resort back to original and run a single four barrel Carter AFB or Rochester 4GC.  You'd need to find the manifold, carb, and air cleaner..  If you're not attached to the dual four barrel set up, selling it would pay for your transportation costs, and the cost of finding the items to make it a VERY nice single four barrel 1964 Riviera.

 

Currently there's a '64 dual quad numbers matching car listed on the ROA's website in the "Hot new classifieds."  It's in Minnesota and advertised for $17,000.

  

The rear carb has been indentified as a Cadillac carb, the distributor is a single four barrel item, in addition to Tom's other comments, the manifold date (according to the owner) is 12th day of Aug, but there's no year given,  and the build date of the car is the 3rd week of Jan, '64.  From this information, I'd say that the induction has been pieced together.  Still would be a strong car as a single carb car.

 

Ed

Thanks Ed, still thinking really hard about buying this car. The owner says the car was tuned last year, is running really well and recommends just enjoying it the way it is until deciding which direction to go regarding the carb set up. He is ideally looking for an owner that will keep the car as original as possible (looking past this carb issue of course :)) which is certainly my plan.

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$41,500 for this one at Mecum this week.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/FL0116-230918/0/1964-Buick-Riviera/Automatic/

 

1 of 2,122 built with Super Wildcat 425 CI dual quad engine
- Matching numbers engine
- Former Riviera Owners Club National winner
- Air conditioning
- Power windows
- Power mini vent
- Power seat
- Tilt steering column
- Cruise control
- Deluxe interior
- Genuine wood trim
- AM/FM radio with reverb

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This one had been a "no sale" on Ebay after several listings the past couple of months. It looks like the seller did well by holding out.

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ROA "National winner."  Is this by any chance Carl Blanchard's car?

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