Agoraphobia in the hobby

[Dave@Moon]

Ask Peterg to look it up for you! <P>Seriously, every one of us knows of a number of cars in our area that were restored and put away by their owners. If you peruse the membership list of almost any large club you'll see dozens of cars near you that have been in there for years that you've never seen. Maybe you have friends or people in the area you know who have beautiful, finished, dust covered cars in their garages. <P>My question is this: <I>Why does this happen?</I> <P>Obviously, health or mechanical reasons might come into play, but I know of many cases where they do not. There seems to be a wall of resistance in some people to bring restored cars out after they're done that gets higher with every year of ownership.<P>I have my own theories (no kidding! ), but I'd like to get input from the rest of us first. Where does this come from?<p>[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[1937hd45]

We all enjoy the hobby in our own way. Our 1931 Ford roadster hasn't seen the road in 18 years, the '12 T touring will be off for three this year. Both cars need a new battery and gas only. You can drive to any car show,flea market or show up at Saturday nite cruse and have as good a time with out an "old car". Many people have given up on the cars and switched to "automobilia". Showing up with a car doesn't make you a better person in any way. I paid for them with my money, and will enjoy them as I see fit.<p>[ 07-28-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

[The Old Guy]

I have driven my 1940 Buick Super 96,000 miles in the thirty years I have owned it. I have also pulled a 1935 Covered Wagon travel trailer to California and Florida with my 1932 Buick model 97. the BCA has a new division called the Buick Driving Enthusiasts, which promotes driving the cars. they have meets all over the country, and the emphasis is on enjoying the cars and the people that drive them.We see mostly cars in the 60s ans 70s, but the early cars are still well represented.Many of the members of the BDE have stated that they are bringing their old car because they enjoy driving them without having to park next to a trailer Queen at the big meets.<p>[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: The Old Guy ]

[Mark Huston]

It goes with out saying that when anyone owns a car, restored or not, that it is there property to do as they see fit. So that aside, getting back to the question at hand, the reason given by most owners of restored unused cars, is that they have so much work and money into the restored car that they don’t want to risk “losing money” or depreciating their investment by actually driving the car. So, the car is treated like any other investment and just sits collecting dust. To me the real joy is driving and using our cars as they were intended when built. I have never thought of my old car as a “true investment”. Just a big expensive toy.

[Guest]

Just a few reasons people don?t take out their cars:<BR><ul> [*]Bought as an investment</li><BR> [*]Not insured</li><BR> [*]Not licensed</li><BR> [*]Not a hobbiest</li><BR> [*]Scared it might get in an accident</li><BR> [*]Scared it might get ?keyed?</li><BR> [*]Other drivers look for old cars to get in an accident so they can collect insurance money</li><BR> [*]Not road worthy</li><BR> [*]Not worth showing</li><BR> [*]Still being restored</li><BR> [*]It is restored</li><BR> [*]Don?t want to get it dirty</li><BR> [*]To valuable</li><BR> [*]Not interested in sharing it</li><BR> [*]Too old</li><BR> [*]Too sick</li><BR> [*]Out of gas</li><BR> [*]Battery dead</li><BR> [*]Wife wont let me</li><BR> [*]Have a life beyond the hobby (church, school, work, family, birthday, anniversary, other hobby)</li><BR> [*]Don?t want to take it out of storage</li><BR> [*]Waiting for parts</li><BR> [*]Just cleaned it</li><BR> [*]Its to dirty</li><BR> [*]Already won all the awards I can at the local cruise</li><BR> [*]To many hotrods</li><BR> [*]Nobody appreciates old cars anymore</li><BR>

<p>[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[1937hd45]

Thank you Peter, all excellent reasons. Now let's see a list of reasons why I'm suppost to drive around all day in one of my restored drivers.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Why should I drive around all day in a classic or antique car ?<BR><ul>[*]Looks better than any other car on the road.<BR>[*]I just finished cleaning and waxing it.<BR>[*]If it breaks, I can actually fix it.<BR>[*]Everyone looks at me.<BR>[*]People give me room as opposed to tailgating me.<BR>[*]It gives me a chance to be outside with no A/C.<BR>[*]It better on gas then either of my trucks (though not a lot).<BR>[*]Rides better than my '72 beater Vega.<BR>[*]All the lowrider crowd wants to see what under the hood.<BR>[*]I love to valet park and see the expression on the valets face when faced with a 3 on the tree and the Buick's unique starting system. Most of the time they just give up and let me park close anyway.<BR>[*]It hold 6 adults comfortably.<BR>[*]If I am in an accident, I win plus get a new paint job out of the deal.<BR>[*]Wife loves to ride in the car.<BR>

Is that enough ?, I need to go to dinner in the '47.<p>[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: Bill Stoneberg ]

[Dave@Moon]

Peter,<P>I think most of what you posted would better be construed as <I>symptoms of</I> agoraphobia than <I>reasons for</I> agoraphobia. <P>I'm interested in the reasoning behind all of those you list. They are all valid, but how could they become more suasive than the joys that originally attracted us to the hobby in the first place?

[Guest]

in some cases, there is something wrong with the car that the owner does not want to admit to. Maybe overheats, bad brakes, or something. Maybe got tired of fighting it.

[Guest]

there is another twisted mind-set to all of this. e.g: A local 'Pillar of Society' and hi ranking municipal offical collected a certain brand of car. He had about 12 of 'em. OF COURSE, everyone who even remotely took orders from him had to run out and buy one for themself so they could have something to talk about when they met him on the street, at a restaurant or some other function. I knowe of at least 3 cases of this situation. They had no interest in the car nor cars in general. They rarely drove the cars. When the big-shot died they couldnt sell the cars fast enuf. But mostly the cars just sat in a one car garage being 'restored'. I bought one of the cars. The owner spent alot of money on brakes, carb, tune up stuff etc. I actually drove the car home when i bought it but just barely made it. Its a good thing this kind of situation does occur tho. It brings the cars to US!!!! Eventualy.

[Guest]

Here's one reason...<P>They're tired of being questioned WHY they don't bring their cars out more.<P> <P>Peter

[Guest]

Bottom line is your basic assumption here is flawed Dave@moon. <P>Car owners dont have a fear of open or public places... i think the very opposite is true actually - car guys are the most talkative group of folks i know.<P>They don't bring their cars out for all the reasons i stated above.. but the big one is -- they choose to do something else with their time.<P>Peter

[Guest]

I agree ...for once...with the other Peter. I do drive my Packard Twelve all over the place...often....'cept when a new Britney Spears Dance Video comes out......

[Dave@Moon]

I'm sorry Peter, but I just don't buy the hypothesis that they "just want to do something else with their time". We're talking about an activity (be it restoration or just purchase) that requires a lot of commitmant on the part of the owner. Compared to taking a few hours once or twice a year to charge the car up and run it around the block a few times... I just don't see it as a major disruption or burden. <P>If one loses interest in the hobby or in a particular car, I can see that. But to hold on the car <I>years</I> after it becomes a point of interest? I just don't understand that.<P>Even more puzzling are the owners I've known who love their cars dearly, lead relatively sedentary lives, and <I>still</I> allow their car to deteriorate from inattention in the garage. They'll often talk for hours about them, but not see them in daylight for years.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>The item that stands out to me among PeterG's list is <I>"already won all the awards I can at the local cruise".</I> I've met quite a number of owners and restorers who seem to view awards as the goal of the hobby. Once they've won the one(s) they're interested in, the car seems to be a superfluous piece to them. Yet they can't seem to give it up, perhaps for fear of rendering the awards meaningless.<P>As an extreme example, I have a friend in Pittsburgh who's restored a rare 1930's sedan to at least senior award status, and has never even shown it. He seems to be content just with the knowledge that it's of the status he desired. As far as I know, it hasn't left the garage since 1999.<P>Has anyone else run into owners like this? What techniques are there to re-invigorate a comrad's interest in the physical aspects of antique ownership?

[1937hd45]

Dave, I think I understand your problem. Not everyone shares your idea of what the end result should be with "old car" ownership. Some enjoy the hunt, others enjoy the restoration, some have a car that is a family heirloom that will be passed along to the next generation. Just because they choose not to run the wheels off them doesn't make them bad people.

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>IMHO you're spending way to much time trying to make the percieved problem fit your label -- instead of identifing the problem, if one in fact exists.<p>[ 07-28-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[1937hd45]

One overlooked reason that some cars don't go out, moving all the crap that is in, on, and under the car. Sometimes a dead car is blocking the one runner in the garage. Having them is the fun part for some of us.

[Dave@Moon]

Does anyone have anything to offer here that <I>isn't</I> defensive?

[Dave@Moon]

p.s. IMHO running the car "around the block a few times once or twice a year" does not equal "running the wheels off the car".

[Dave@Moon]

I think I've done a pretty good job of defining "the problem". If you meet someone who collects pipes, it'd be reasonable to expect them to smoke. It'd be reasonable to expect a gun collector to fire a few off on a range once and a while. A person who collects thimbles probably sews now and then.<P>And on and on and on......<P>A 1923 Dodge or 1955 Triumph isn't exactly a rare stamp or a Beanie Baby. It requires effort and maintenance to prevent it from deteriorating from non-use just as well as it would to correct any deterioration from being driven. It's a high maintenance hobby even at the least possible level of involvement.<P>Not that everybody needs to think like me, but keeping an antique car without using it is a little like a celebate marriage to Pam Anderson. And it seems to me that most of the time there was a period in the past relationship between the owner and the car that'd make Tommy Lee jealous. <P>Does anybody know where that comes from, and why?

[Clincher]

I cannot understand why you would care what others choose to do, or not do, with their cars; surely their reasons for doing or not doing are many, and mysteriously unfathomable. As long as you can feel secure that no one is attempting to interfere with what you choose to do or not do with your car; why not be content with that, and let sleeping dogs lie?

[rocketraider]

I think one point Dave is trying to make, though he hasn't said so in as many words, is that if cars aren't seen and shared, there's a whole generation of people who may never get the privilege of seeing and appreciating them. <P>I don't get to see many prewar cars and that bothers me. My dad and uncle loved the older cars though neither could afford to have one, and I never got many chances to take them to shows before their deaths.<P>And then there's some old car owners who are just plain ornery. I saw this just last evening at a cruise night. A gorgeous 1932 Studebaker President drove into the cruise area and immediately attracted a large crowd as it was the only prewar car there that hadn't been rodded. Amid compliments and questions of genuine interest about this car, all of a sudden the guy's face clouded up, he got in it, and left. Maybe he didn't know how to handle the attention and admiration for his car, but I suspect it was just plain orneriness kicked in.<P>Maybe when these owners who never bring out their cars die off, the people who buy them at the estate sale will see fit to share their little piece of history. I don't advocate "driving the wheels off them", but I try to drive my four Oldsmobiles a few hundred miles a year just to avoid deterioration from lack of use- which is misuse IMHO.

[Dave@Moon]

Two quick responses:<P><B>Clincher:</B> Have you ever tried to be president of major car club chapter trying to reverse the image of the club and the hobby in general? We are a community as well as individuals, something most hot rod clubs seem to embrace in spades.<P><B>Rockettrader:</B> That's exactly what I'm getting at. I would've thought the connection between this thread and the two hot rod threads would've been obvious, but I was wrong.<P>However, I'm afraid I don't see too many cars from estate sales going back into circulation in their original form as I follow the hobby. It's my suspicion that there are a lot more hot rod venture capitalists than antique car enthusiasts attending estate sales.<p>[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Dave Moon: yes, the old car hobby does seem to carry with a repertoir of being an 'Old Mans' hobby. We need more meets like the Woodward Crusie and maybe some non-competitive field events at a track somewhere so that the cars can be tested and driven without worry. I have e-mailed Nashillesuperspeedway@nashvillesuperspeedway.com about renting the track for an Indian (and Packard) test meet. They have yet to reply. <P> If our Classic Iron (O hi PFH!!!) can be USED more than just set in a show field and looked at maybe there would be alot more younger interset. One thing is for sure. A young man with limited funds can restore or buy an already restored older car, have alot of fun with it and do it ALOT cheaper than trying to race in competition with modern equipment.

[Guest]

dave@moon,<P>Your right, I am being negative. In my defense however your started this thread (and a few others) negatively. To label an entire group of people with agoraphobia is the wrong way to start a conversation.<P>Had you walked up to me at my home and blurted out "why the heck don't you drive that thing!", my first reaction would not to be to find some common ground with you... it would most definitely be defensive. That's what you've done here.<P>Peter

[Dave@Moon]

Peter,<P>Again, reread the first post. The question <I>"Why does this happen?"</I> is intentionally directed toward owners who are actively participating with their cars in tours and shows. By definition that implies there is an audience out there for which the term "agoraphibic" would not apply!<p>[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Dave@Moon]

Maybe this would've been a better winter thread.

[R W Burgess]

pETER, I THINK dAVE@MOON LIVES IN THE CLOUDY AREA OF cINCINATTI. tHE SUN NEVER SHINES OVER HIS HOUSE w.

[Guest]

Dave,<P>Your assuming that the people to which the question is directed actually read this forum. I suspect they don't.<P>You should instead ask those here (who are habitual participants in the hobby) what can be done to get other's to get their cars out.

[Guest J446]

I touched on this in DRIVE THEM in the CCCA forum. I own 4 collector cars which I drive regularly. (1967 Ford GT40 MK-IV,1967 Lola T70,1967 Ferrari P4,1931 Duesenberg) I drive them because I enjoy driving them and I feel this keeps them healthy. What ever makes one happy is fine with me but I do feel it's a shame not to use them for the purpose that they were created.<BR>Best

[1937hd45]

Dave,The reason I don't do anything with the local region (like pay dues etc.)is because they are BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheap too! Any club function is a step back in time, pick a year, say 1978. They are still bitching about the price of Model A Ford oil pan gaskets. These are the same guys that talk all night about their real estate holdings and stock deals. Please stop all the "for the children" crap, if someone has an interest in "old cars" they will find it on their own, you don't have to start some door to door campain. Hot Rods are popular because they are FUN! Get used to it!

[Guest]

AMEN HD45!!!! i do NOT restore cars and m/c's nor attend meets because i am a humanitarian. I'm tired of all this charity, 'For the children', and worthy cause benefits that many clubs and are trying to promote. A car meet is a CAR meet. FOR adults. Same goes for m/c meets. I dont care if kids and cripples attend the more the merrier. But i go for MY (here let me spell that (M-Y)) ENJOYMENT. I gotta' have some of that too once in a while.

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>I took the time to re-read your original post and the rest of the thread and one thing stuck out -- "I'm interested in the reasoning behind all of those you list. They are all valid, but how could they become more suasive than the joys that originally attracted us to the hobby in the first place?"<P>What exactly are the "joys" you refer to? I think this may be the key of our differences. <P>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you consider the "joys" to be taking the car out and either driving it or showing it. Unfortunately I think your assumption is only correct for only a small group. <P>We need to accept the fact that, for many, owning an antique car is enough. No amount of pursuasion on our part will change that.<P>With that i'll shut up. I'm obviously not synching up with you on this subject.<P>Thanks,<P>peter

[rocketraider]

The "generation" I referred to are not children- it's people in their 20s and 30s who have never been exposed to the technology and engineering some of the old iron had. Of course, getting a kid to appreciate yer stuff isn't a bad thing either, since whether you like it or not they are the ones who will carry this hobby forward after all of us are pushing up weeds. And if they aren't interested in the old stuff, when you're gone, somebody will take yer old iron and make a Toyota out of it. The US government is closer to that than we think right now.<P>If you don't want to bring your car out, fine. It's your right. Me, I'm one of these people that if I can't drive the car and enjoy it, it's not worth a tinker's damn to me and would be better turned into a Toyota.

[Guest]

To some extent, or maybe even a greater extent, Classic iron IS an art form that can be admired and sought after withOUT driving it. NOT my cup of tea, but nonetheless an art form. Kind'a like a picture that hangs of the wall, only different.

[Guest]

PackardV8 wrote: "old car hobby does seem to carry with a repertoir of being an 'Old Mans' hobby"<P>This really struck a chord with me. I don't know if it's an old man's hobby by design. Rather, I suspect that the hobby is one that only "old men" can afford to participate in. <P>There are a number of sites on the Internet that specialize in unrestored cars - I'll direct you to check out <A HREF="http://www.modelthaven/com" TARGET=_blank>www.modelthaven/com</A> as an example. Take a look at the prices... and then factor in that you will need to spend another $10,000 to restore the car to presentable condition... a lot more if you want a show winner! Then take into account that these are Model T's, and not some orphan make with no new parts available! Does that sound like the kind of hobby younger folks can afford?<P>There's a huge section of letters in this months Horseless Carriage Gazette about the proposal to change the eligibility years for the London to Brighton run to include 1905 and 1906. The letters from the pre-1905 folks oppose the change, as they feel it will de-value their cars. The 1905-1906 crowd is thrilled, as they feel it will make their cars double in value. <P>Obviously, this is a long post, and doesn't directly address the question of why people don't use their cars, but I felt compelled to respond, as I think the overvaluation of cars is a cancer on the hobby that blocks out most of those (myself included) in the "younger set". <P>Doc

[ply33]

So far, I have been keeping my thoughts to myself on both this thread and the one on losing the war.... But I can offer a personal observation automobile agoraphobia.<P>When I was younger I put about 10,000 miles/year on my then 40 year old car. It is now in much better shape and I have averaged a bit over 1000 miles/year. Obviously I fit into the category of those who are not making their car as visible as I used to.<P>The big reason? Age. Not the car, but me. There are some side effects to age: I am more used to creature comforts. A trip of 300 to 600 miles in the old car is one I would have done at the drop of a hat when I was in my 20s. Now I only drive it that far for car events and even then I think about it a lot. No cruise control, no CD player, no AC, rather poor back support, etc.<P>And with age comes a certain amount of caution. Or perhaps it is lack of tolerance for uncertainty. If you are traveling any distance in a 40 year old or older car you should always allow extra time for problems. While the old car has only failed me twice on the road (in the 1970s with a broken piston and just a couple of years ago with a clogged radiator), I am much more aware of the mechanical age of the beast and much more cautious about getting stuck somewhere.<P>So most of the mileage on the car is from local club tours (or the to and from to get to the tours) and from my casual around town driving. Result: Far fewer people see the car as it was intended to be seen (in use).<P>As to why other cars are seen more? Maybe they are owned by people like me. More likely each person has their own reasons.

[RoadsterRich]

<B>"The Joys of ownership"</B><P>From personal and family experience there are many reasons people 'enjoy' owning something. What would these reasons be... here's a few I can think of that come directly from folks in my family, and each and every one of us are different that is for certain... note that this list applies to 'stuff' in general, not just cars, though the mentality will fit either in my opinion.<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Tinkering with it<BR><LI>Using it<BR><LI>Sharing it<BR><LI>Looking at it<BR><LI>Holding it<BR><LI>Talking about it<BR><LI>Learning about it<BR></UL><P>I am certain there are many more, those are just off the top of my head. This isn't about right or wrong, or even about future generations. In reading this thread it seems to be more about "Where have all the pre-war cars gone." I for sure do not know how to answer anyones questions or solve the problems for posteriety.<P><B>"Garage Queens?"</B><P>In the end it doesn't matter why someone quit coming out, all that truely matters is that which will bring them out again. If you want the cars then it is time to quit playing armchair psychiatrist and time to knock on some doors. Talk to the inactive folks and find out what would make it fun again for them, what would motivate them to come out.<P>I recently heard from a friend that he will no longer be taking his cars to shows, he is tired of all the muscle cars and no prewar buddies to socialize with. I pointed out to him if everyone thinks like he does then there won't be any prewar cars at the shows. He quickly pointed out that after 30+ years of showing he didn't have the time or the energy to be the leader of the pack.<P>You want the cars out - encourage people to encourage their friends, give an award or a prize to the member who gets the most 'garage' cars out to a show. Encourage the active to encourage the inactive. Find out what makes it fun again for those that have lost that rush that comes with getting out and being seen and seeing. Few of the people I know bring out cars because of humanitarian reasons, they bring out the cars because in one way or another they derive pleasure from doing so. You want to be humanitarian? Have a 'Drive for Dollars' for a charity, where a group takes a tour be it across town or across country. No matter how you slice it, you have to make it interesting and enjoyable or you won't have participation.<P>Well I have rambled way too much, to me the issue is not why they quit, but rather how to get them back. People change and grow over time, they get tired of the old, or bored with the same. Find out what they want or they need, maybe a few just need someone to ask... and to tell them they're missed, who knows...<P>Rich

[1937hd45]

Good points Rich! I do think the late model stuff, (1949 - whatever with wheels) has turned away many that started this hobby. I don't see anyone trying to close the gate on 25 year old vehicles in the future. How many people want to look at a twin to car they bought as a tow vehicle 25 years ago? The single make clubs, Brass Era etc. will continue to grow but the mixed era meets are doomed to the new cars. If you can drive to a meet at 80MPH in a late model,why take a car that is maxed out at 45MPH?

[Guest]

Unregistered user 'Doc' indicated that only older men can afford the classic car hobby????? I dont think so. I see many people out there in their 20's and 30's driving $40K pic-ups with 4wd that they never use. Riding rice-rockets that cost $7-8k or more with VERY expensive accessories. H-D riders with $24K motorcycles. If they can afford those things then why not a classic car too???<P>I believe the reason is mostly AVAILABILITY of the classic car market. Its just NOT something the average person thinks of until he is confronted with the opportunity to buy one. I dont think anyone that ever got into this hobby a fortiori. Altho i was relatively young i got interested by accident (chance luck).