Starting Problems

[R.White]

Some of you may recall that I removed and restored the vacuum tank. However, since refitting, it the car has refused to start. I had the car running fine before I changed from the electric pump to the vacuum tank a few weeks ago but even with the carb float chamber primed and a fully charged 6 volt battery, there is not even a cough. I have thoroughly cleaned up the terminals and applied petrolium jelly to them. I am not sure the wires are heavy enough - they look like 12 volt to me but they worked O.K.before. The fuel pump live wire has also been removed.

The plugs are in good condition, cleaned and correctly gapped, the contact breaker points, likewise are clean and correctly gapped with rotor arm and cap cleaned. The coil and condensor are O.K. I am sure. With the advance/retard fully retarded and the choke cable fully out it turns over on the starter or the handle but does not fire.

There is a 6 volt reading at the points and an H.T. spark at the plugs. I have not got a suitable adapter for my compression tester so I don't have those values but I can feel compression on the crank handle enough to make the engine tough work to turn over. I know the timing is right as I did it myself and had the engine running fine just weeks before before .Although the distributor is worn it worked O.K. before.

So I have compression and spark. I therefore investigated the carb. Just in case there was a vacuum leak, I tried it with the manifold vacuum take off blanked off (as before I fitted the tank) - nothing. I removed the carb and checked the jet was clear and the air valve was not stuck. The choke rack and pinion works fine. Fuel was fresh that day and must have been getting through as the inlet in the block was wet with it. Gaskets are home made but seem O.K.

I tried starting with some "easy start" spray in the air intake and even with a little fuel in the plug holes as a primer but nothing happening - not even a cough!

The frustrating part is that the car is stored 15 miles away so I have to go there with my 'modern' kitted out like a mobile garage but the novelty is wearing off. I'm obviously missing something but can't think what. Is it possible that there is condensation in the engine. Conditions have been such that heavy condensation has soaked everything! Iv'e tried drying the electrical system as much as I can but I am running out of options. The ignition switch is worn but seems to work and the amp meter reads normal discharge.

Don't forget, any suggestions cannot be tried until I can find a spare half day to drive over to the car and when there I am usually on my own. (The memsahib is also giving me ear ache but that's another matter!)

Over to you guys for suggestions.

Many thanks, Ray.

Edited January 15, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[72caddy]

No cough even with starting fluid would lead me to believe the spark and fuel are not at the same place at the same time. Check that the plug aires are in the correct spots on the distributor. There should be a number on the rotor cap for each cylinder.

[R.White]

Thankyou for your consideration; however I know that the firing order - 1342 - corresponds with the distributor cap and has not been altered since it was running last; and it was running very sweetly with a responsive pick up and no back fire. I am suspecting the problem of heavy condensation and cold temperatures which we have had of late are to blame but I could be wrong.

Incidentally, I think the design of the engine, with the air intake having to pass from the off side to the near side through the block to get to the carb, could make the effectiveness of "easy start" somewhat limited. One would ideally spray it directly into the carb.

Your help is appreciated.

Ray.

[billstewart]

Hi Ray, It might be flooded, mine was doing like that one time,I was about ready to junk it. I turn the gas off and let set overnight and I left the gas off and it started right up, then I turn the gas on and it has run fine since then, Bill

[Guest Bill Miller]

Ray,

You've discovered the fun part of the hobby. Congratulations. A failure to start can only be due to 3 causes and usually only one of them, being either an electrical problem, a fuel problem, or a mechanical problem. 95% of the time the problem is electrical since that's the weakest part of the ignition system subject to corrosion, weather-related problems, etc. Your task is to triage among the 3. If you are SURE your fuel is reasonably fresh, the plugs aren't soaked with petrol, and it ran prior to your vacuum tank repair, and it won't even pop or cough with starter spray, then I think the problem just has to be electrical. Borrow somebody's air tank and blow out the distributor contacts and the rotor ( I assume you are running a coil/distributor setup rather than a magneto) and check for corrosion. Take out the plugs and blow them off too. Dampness will knock out a distributor/coil spark faster than anything. Your coil itself could be broken down so if that doesn't work the next step would be to replace the coil. Make sure your coil wire is intact, it's easy to replace yourself. If none of that works leave another post and let's see if we can work from there.

[R.White]

That is a distinct possibility, Bill. As I am trying to start it with just fuel in the carb float chamber, the level is pure guesswork!. My putting the lid back on after priming it is a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted! What works on one car may not work on another. If it comes to it Bill, I will have to open up the vacuum tank and prime that but I was hoping not to have to break the seal - but I have now got some suitable gasket sealer to do it with.

Yes, it's more likely than not that flooding is the problem. I can't think of a better explanation especially when thinking about what I have been doing differently.

Thankyou Bill, I will try out your suggestion and report back when I can. There is more snow forcast and the more remote country lanes don't get salt as a priority. It's also flippin cold with an Easterly. Ecuses, excuses. Ha Ha.

Cheers,

Ray.

[R.White]

Hello Bill (Miller). Thanks for your response. Yes I am sure the fuel is fresh - I got it the same day. I agree entirely that the damp conditions are usually the most likely cause of starting problems but as I have dried everything off as best as I can (the car is in storage and I don't have access to an air line there) and as I am getting 6 volts from a good battery in low tension, the points and plugs are clean dry and gapped correctly, the condenser is working and the coil pumping out high tension enough to make a spark at the plugs and there is good compression - either the engine is soaking - (which is either condensation or a leak) or more likely, I have simply flooded the carb as Bill Stewart has suggested. This is what I have been doing differenty. Priming the carb too much.I am doing this because untill the engine is running I can't test the vacuum tank.

Thanks again - all suggestions are appreciated and I will keep you posted as to progress.

Ray.

[1936 D2]

You mentioned about it being very damp.

- Have you checked the points for corrosion? If they were on cam and left open for a length of time the dampness may have gotten to them.

- Do you have a nice long blue spark at the plugs? Remove a plug wire, place the clip close to the end (1/4") of the spark plug and crank. Does the spark make the gap?

- Is the engine block well grounded or did the dampness corrode a ground area? Quick test - clip a battery jumper cable from the block to a good clean frame ground or the battery itself. That will bypass any other grounds that may be having troubles. If it then works you can go back and check & clean all your normal engine grounding routes.

- Bring along another condenser for the distributor on your next trip. Again, dampness could have caused a short in the condenser defeating the points.

I am along with both you and Bill M concerning the electrical side and the dampness.

Edited January 16, 2013 by 1936 D2 (see edit history)

[JayG]

You shouldn't have to take the top off of the vacuum tank to prime it. Mine has a square plug that is removeable. I can prime it using a small funnel. Otherwise remove the gas inlet fitting. I would try to prime it so that the tank is full then try to start it. It's gravity feed so it might need some fuel in the tank to push it through the carb.

[Alfre]

I have a few cars with vacume tanks they will not start if the tank is empty. I will ether fill them through the fill plug or fuel line in put fitting as some do not have a fill plug. my favorite way is compressed air applied through the fuel tank fill.

When empty the vacume to the intake manifold is open to the atmospher reducing vacume to the carburetor.

Al

[Pete K.]

With a warm hand, you should be able to feel the outside of the vacuum tank where the fuel level is. It will feel a bit colder where the fuel is. My guess is the dampness is the culprit. Try to dry off the wires Ray.

[R.White]

Some helpful advise from all you guys. I will see if I can get the car started one way or another.

1936D2 I usually check the spark by grounding out against the head to confirm that the plug is working. This seemed O.K. when I checked but perhaps there is not a big enough spark to fire up so I will see if it jumps the 1/4" from the clip this time. If there is a bad ground it may be the battery to frame wire where it joins the frame. A heavier cable and a clean ground could pay dividends here. I will again make sure there is no damp or corrosion in the system anywhere. I have confirmed that the coil is O.K. but I have a new one spare and a new condensor so no harm in fitting them anyway.

Jay and Al you both say to prime the vacuum tank (rather than the carb float chamber). I will do this. My tank does not have a filler plug so I could use the inlet but if I take a compressor and air line with me I only need to pressurise the fuel tank - good idea! I can also use the air line to thoroughly dry out the distributor and points.

Pete, I have to say your comment about putting a warm hand on the tank to judge the level made me giggle just a bit because I can't tell you how flippin' cold I get working on the car over there! It's a helpful tip though - I just wish I could get the car back to my nice warm garage which is where I was going when I realised the vacuum tank was rotten and leaking!

Many thanks to you all.

Ray.

[Pete K.]

Sorry about the very cold conditions Ray,You've been getting some good advice here, My little bit of input now is the question of your distributor being "worn". How worn and where worn? If you remove the cap, & rotor, then try and wiggle the vertical shaft back and forth, there shouldn't be more than .005" play. If there is more, the point setting will be all over the place, whereas fighting the moisture problem and if battery isn't up enough, car won't start. Forget about compression, valve sticking and those type problems...If it ran well, or even ran atall, It is a temporary problem, much as been discussed here. My '25 doesn't have the vacuum tank filler plug either. I would remove the input line fitting, use a tiny funnel and pour gas into tank like that. Measure the amount going in! 2 cup fulls are enough if it's dry. Pressurizing the rear tank works, but it's tricky by yourself. Too much fuel will come flying out your air vent pipe all over the place, or if shut-off valve is open, gas will force itself under needle valve and come out through main jet, flooding engine and floor. You may need Mother Nature's help to wait out the unusual dampness to dry the ignition system.

[JACK M]

Ray, Put a Hemi in it !!!!

Ha Ha Ha

[platt-deutsch]

When you remove the cap on the float chamber on the carb, is the pin down or up.. If it is up and you can press it down the bowl is empty. To prime the Vaccuum tank just remove the inlet fitting and pour a cup or 2 of fuel in there and you should be good to go.

[R.White]

Ray, Put a Hemi in it !!!!

Ha Ha Ha

I thought I could keep it all Dodge with a viper SRT-10. A nice little V10 with just 500 bhp from 505 cu in. 2 wheel brakes and all!!!!

[1936 D2]

If you are lucky enough to have electricity where it is stored now, take a couple tungsten filament trouble lights along with you. Place them near stuff that may have dampness issues, like the distributor, coil, plug tops, battery, etc. The heat from the lamps will bring up the surface temps of those parts and drive the moisture away for a bit. Maybe long enough to get a sputter which could help you locate parts that are having dampness issues.

If it is THAT cold where you have it stored, you may be having "normal" cold start issues. Those usually relate to maladjusted choke problems. (But hopefully not as cold as the 6 degs F we are expecting over here tonight!)

[R.White]

Sorry about the very cold conditions Ray,You've been getting some good advice here, My little bit of input now is the question of your distributor being "worn". How worn and where worn? If you remove the cap, & rotor, then try and wiggle the vertical shaft back and forth, there shouldn't be more than .005" play. If there is more, the point setting will be all over the place, whereas fighting the moisture problem and if battery isn't up enough, car won't start. Forget about compression, valve sticking and those type problems...If it ran well, or even ran atall, It is a temporary problem, much as been discussed here. My '25 doesn't have the vacuum tank filler plug either. I would remove the input line fitting, use a tiny funnel and pour gas into tank like that. Measure the amount going in! 2 cup fulls are enough if it's dry. Pressurizing the rear tank works, but it's tricky by yourself. Too much fuel will come flying out your air vent pipe all over the place, or if shut-off valve is open, gas will force itself under needle valve and come out through main jet, flooding engine and floor. You may need Mother Nature's help to wait out the unusual dampness to dry the ignition system.

..

Hi Pete. What surprised me was just how well the old girl ran with the worn bearings in the distributor. I just want it to drive the 15 mile journey home where a distributor rebuild is on the cards. When I rebuilt the water pump (temporary job) I noticed that the gear was sloppy on it's key way; in fact the key had worn floppy in the pump shaft. As the pump shaft is due to be replaced anyway I brazed the key in place and made a dramatic improvement to the to and fro movement but of course it made no difference to the side to side movement of the distributor shaft. I don't know yet but I may end up fitting electronic ignition depending on the availability of new parts, shipping costs etc. This masks much of the problem but does not solve it and is not in the spirit of originality which I also like.

The problem of presurising the tank and over doing it is something that, with my luck, will result in fuel all over the place and losing me the secure storage. I will therefore do as you suggest and put just 2 cup fulls of petrol in the vacuum tank through the inlet opening with a little funnel.

You don't need me to tell you that Mother nature is in a bad mood of late. Will she ever forgive us for trashing the planet?

I hope to dry everything out thoroughly and make sure the battery is fully charged (I sometimes use two 6 volt batteries with jump leads) but the starter remains slow. I don't have the strength to keep turning the crank handle so I hope to get the car running next time.

Thanks for the help.

Ray.

[R.White]

1936 D2 There is power available and I had thought to use compressed air but that means taking a small compressor with me which I can do but I had thought a better answer would be my electric heat gun turned down low. The only problem may be voltage drop with several extension leads from the power source to the car as the building is so large (a former bus depot/garage) and the car is too heavy for me to push far on my own. My old friend, Steve, would normally help with this but he is away in warmer climes at the moment - he's no fool!

Ray

[Pete K.]

Yep Ray, Sounds to me it would be a good day for "another cup of coffee and another piece of pie". Pull the distributor unit off and bring 'er home to rebuild. It may only need a couple of new brass bushings for the rotor shaft. Not a big deal. Good luck thawing out! --Pete.

[Alfre]

Ray

When pressuring the fuel tank the vacume tank should not over flow because when the tank is full it will close the fuel inlet and open the vent at this time the carb will be full the only pressure will be in the fuel tank and it's line to the vacume tank.

Al

[R.White]

Thankyou Al. Can you tell me what pressure you apply to the fuel tank and for how long so that I can feel confident that the petrol will not be forced out somewhere. Also, how do you seal the airline to the filler neck which has a bayonette fitting?

I see your point about the inlet valve closing when the tank is full so it should not therefore overflow.

I thought the vent was open to the atmosphere all the time.

Thankyou.

Ray.

[Alfre]

Ray

first the vent must close with the motor running or the would be no vacume to pump fuel.

How to seal tank to apply pressure use a blow gun and rap a rag around until fills tank opening as for time to inflate should take about one minuet, if you hear the tank expand that is plenty of air, use caution when removing rag as some gas mist can escape [ no smoking allowed ]

Al

[Alfre]

Ray

the worst vacume tanks I have worked on are Dodge & Plymouth ,Stward warner are much better built.

Al

[Ken_Lincoln]

Hi Guys... This may sound strange to you, but if the car was running fine before removing the electric fuel pump why not try refitting it and see how it goes... if it runs again it would show the problem is in the vacuum system... you could sort it out when the weather picks up... { No problems with cold here... current outside temp is 40.8 deg.c... 105.44 deg. f }

[Phil 32DL6]

A hairdryer is a good safe way to dry out electrical components.

Using a gas can gravity feeding the carb via a siphon helped me pin down a fuel system problem a while back. Might be worth a try.

[R.White]

Thanks for the help, Al. I think we have one or two crossed wires about the vacuum tank. The one I have is a Stewart Warner. The outer, or lower chamber is always open to the atmosphere and it vents through the short pipe on the top. Although this vent shares the same casting as the atmospheric vent to the inner or upper chamber it is not governed by the valve. Also, the atmospheric vent will open and close while the motor is running as the vacuum is only required to maintainl the level in the upper chamber which is dependant upon the level in the carb float chamber.which in turn is dependant upon the demands of the engine.

This leads onto the question Ken has asked. Why not replace the electric pump as it worked O.K. before?

When the pump was fitted many years ago, it would have had too high a pressure to push petrol directly into the carb, so it had been connected to the vacuum tank with its vacuum blocked. This would have provided a head sufficient to cut off the supply and allowed the carb to be supplied as usual (for the period) by gravity. I have been advised that this is a highly dangerous practise. The original system worked on the principles of vacuum suction to supply the tank and gravity to supply the carb. Presurising the system is only reccommended for short periods to overcome vapour lock.

The starting problem cannot have anything to do with either the pump or the vac tank being connected or not (so long as there is no air leak) as all I need is enough, but not too much, fuel in the float chamber. Once the engine is running I will be able to test the rebuilt vacuum tank.

Thanks Guys for all your excellent suggestions.

Ray.

[JACK M]

A Viper V-10 would be cool as well. Brakes? Who needs those?

Good luck with this Ray, I hate having to work away from the shop.

[R.White]

Thanks for the hairdryer tip - definitely as good a way as any to dry things out. I have an old hairdryer hanging up in the garage for just this purpose. It's a pitty I didn't take it with me last time I went over to the car!

I think you can see what I wanted to do with just enough fuel in the float chamber - it sounds like you have been there, done it, and got the T shirt!

All the best,

Ray.

[R.White]

A Viper V-10 would be cool as well. Brakes? Who needs those?

Good luck with this Ray, I hate having to work away from the shop.

Hey Jack, I bet there are not too many Brits who have even heared of the Viper!

[Guest 1930]

Hey Jack, I bet there are not too many Brits who have even heared of the Viper!

You ever drove one Ray, your not missing much, what a godawfull ride

[Pete K.]

That atmospheric vent has a by-pass channel to vent the "outer tank" where the fuel will rise and come out! Also remember, you are forcing fuel in reverse to what the system was designed for, pressurizing the tank instead of sucking the fuel with engine vacuum. A little too much air pressure in fuel tank, and you'll over-come the spring and valve system in vacuum tank. It WILL overflow.

[R.White]

That atmospheric vent has a by-pass channel to vent the "outer tank" where the fuel will rise and come out! Also remember, you are forcing fuel in reverse to what the system was designed for, pressurizing the tank instead of sucking the fuel with engine vacuum. A little too much air pressure in fuel tank, and you'll over-come the spring and valve system in vacuum tank. It WILL overflow.

Exactly, Pete. You put it nicely!

[R.White]

You ever drove one Ray, your not missing much, what a godawfull ride

Hello Jason. I know what you mean.

My old friend Steve has a Ferrari Testarossa. Same problem. Great looking car and very powerful. It's fun at first, but you soon get fed up with the noise and rough ride - though it's not a problem while it's broken down at the side of the road!!.

If you want a classic car that is fast, beautiful, reliable and handles well; put a smile on your face with an E type Jaguar.(3,8 series 1) Ever tried one? Not perfect by any means but I love them. No, I have never owned one because they keep you poor.

Ha Ha.

[Guest 1930]

I have driven in a few but never driven one that I can remember

[Alfre]

Ray

I only meant to apply pressure to the gas tank to fill the vacume tank not to run the motor.

[R.White]

That's fine Al, I do understand. Like I said; just a few crossed wires. I welcome your input. You obviously have more experience than me when it comes to antique American cars. With this forum we can all have fun just kicking ideas around and learning from each other. I like that.

Ray.

[JACK M]

We all know why the Brits dont build televisions.

[R.White]

Sorry Jack. Gone straight over my head!!

We invented the flippin thing!!

Edited January 18, 2013 by R.White (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Because they leak oil all over the place and probably wont light up.

Must be a US thing.