Guest GaWajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I decided to remove the vent tube on the valve cover because I thought it might catch when the engine came out.Valvetrain exposed ... And there it is coming out ... Theres a pic of my helper, George ...And there we have it ... engine and trans out of the car ... Edited June 28, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I found this in the vent going to the underseat heater ... It might have been there a long time ... it was a little dehydrated the poor thing ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I removed the six bolts holding the transmission the the engine, but they would not separate. I could just get them about half an inch apart. I am leaving that alone for the moment before I break something. There must be a trick to getting them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Great pictures. First time I have seen the uncovered valves on a straight 8. The transmission my be pinching on the input shaft. Take the weight of the transmission off the input shaft at the joining of the shaft to the crank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unimogjohn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Boy, the frame and suspension look to be really nice under all that grease. Will be a great foundation for your restoration. Love all the pics. And that is one beefy engine hoist too. Keep posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I removed the six bolts holding the transmission the the engine, but they would not separate. I could just get them about half an inch apart. I am leaving that alone for the moment before I break something. There must be a trick to getting them apart.You may have to unbolt the flywheel from the fluid coupling...it's been 50 years or so since i had one of these apart. There should be a sheet metal cover under the front of the transmission.I remember an earlier post about there being a "Gibson" dealer badge on this car... did you buy it near Appleton, WI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 You may have to unbolt the flywheel from the fluid coupling...it's been 50 years or so since i had one of these apart. There should be a sheet metal cover under the front of the transmission.That is correct--where is your shop manual? Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Killerbunny Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Great work man..Looking forward to see the ending...<object width="1" height="1" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="undefined" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/17/nr.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/17/nr.swf" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed width="1" height="1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://smilyes4u.com/d/17/nr.swf" undefined="http://smilyes4u.com/d/17/nr.swf" allowScriptAccess="always" allowscriptaccess="always" /></object> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I looked in the manual and it said that you need to use two bolts near the guide pins to jack the transmission out ... I may have misread ... I will have to go over it again.Yes Krooser, it has a GIBSON dealer sticker on it. I got it in Black Creek Wisconsin which is very close to Appleton. Do you have any information about that dealer or this car in particular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I re-read the manuals, and I confirmed the solution, I believe, in the Hydra-Matic shop manual. There are 30 bolts fastnening the torus cover to the flywheel ... they have to be removed, from beneath via the under engine flywheel cover. After that ... remove the 6 bolts holding the housing, and if needed use jack bolts to pry the components appart. Of course ... I didn't drain the trans before removing the engine assembly from the car ... so I have to do it with the engine on the hoist ... DOH!Live and learn I guess ... Edited June 23, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) I think I posted a photo of the old Gibson building in Appleton on the other thread. It is vacant now but has most recently been a cafe. The next time i drive by I will snap a photo... it's a beautiful Art Deco design.If I has seen that Poncho for sale I would have bought it... I live 30 miles of there right on Hwy 54.I just bought a '54 Caddy 331 with a Hydramatic for a future project... i can learn from your miscue! Edited June 23, 2012 by Krooser (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 hi gawajn, here's some original dupont paint information for you, your roof paint 253-55954 sea mist green, your body paint 253-55961 belfast green, your wheel paint 94-55961 belfast green, i got this straight out of the 1954 pontiac master parts catalog. let me know if you need other information, charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the info Charles, but I already had the codes ... straight from a 1952 Dupont colour chip chart. The paint people don't seem to be able to do anything with the codes for matching because it seems that the colours did not get re-formulated to the newer paint products that we must use today. They came up with samples, but were not even close to matching. I will be having someone coming over with a colour matching camera to get a match, and make a formula for me. Edited September 13, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidAU Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 GaWajn have you had a look at this paint suppliers site. They seem to be able to supply paint to the original formulas in a variety of different types of paints.Color Chip Selection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thanks for the link DavidAU.This morning ... I separated the transmission and engine using 9/16 - 12 bolts. It came apart fairly easily. If we only read the manual before attempting a procedure eh?I bought an engine stand from Princess Auto. I guess the US equivalent is Harbor Freight. The stand is a cheap one, but I can't justify spending more because I might never rebuild another engine. It is a 2000 lb stand, so it should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Manuals? We don't need no stinkin manuals!Glad you got it apart. One word of caution on that engine stand... those ratings mean squat... make sure you support the front of that big 8 with a 2X4 or equivalent. Those Chinese lbs are much lighter the Canadian lbs! I have seen them crack welds and/or bend with a BBC on the stand.BTW... that engine is actually pretty clean inside... should be a good rebuilder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I agree ... caution is needed!The engine is very clean. It might just be a hone and rings/bearings job ... we will see ... Ready or not ... here I go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Question: Does the housing that is over the flywheel come apart from the block? Or do you mount the engine on the stand using the bolt holes of that housing?I can't find information about that in the manual. I don't want to remove the flywheel from the crank unless I realy have to. I want to remove the crank and flywheel as an assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Simmons Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 GaWajn- The engine stand you bought looks to be a folder, meaning easy to store. As I said several posts ago the trouble with these engines is the weight/length ratio when on the stand. I've had these straight 8 engines do some not so funny things when mounted on stands one of the worst of which was twisting the stand legs so the engine was at twisted to the left and at a 45degree angle downward. This happened when just pushing the mounted engine(no head) across the shop floor. I have since attached a trailer jack(wheeled type) to the front of the engines on my stands and it works great. You might also be better off to mount that stand directly to the back end of the block minus the bell housing thereby saving the weight of the bell housing on the stand and the weight of the mounted engine on the empty bell housing. Stress does some weird things and some parts are cast to handle stress in one direction and not others. The choice is yours how ever you choose to do it. In any event WORK SAFE. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Understood Mark ... thanks for the info.The oil pan is removed ... a bit of sludge in the bottom ... That's it for today ... I am going camping for the next 8 days or so ... things will be somewhat quiet in here till then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) A few years ago I sold a vintage Edmunds aluminum head, a two deuce intake with a couple of Stromberg 97's and a W&H Du-Coil distributor... all for the Pontiac 8. Too bad... that would be great eye candy for this build!It's probably a good thing the engine didn't run... that goop in the bottom of the pan surely would have had some effect on oil circulation. Back in the day it was not unusual to remove the pan at certain intervals and clean the sludge out and clean the screen... those pix are the reason why. Otherwise that old girl looks VERY nice... you have a winner! Edited June 25, 2012 by Krooser (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 hi gawajn, you must remove the flywheel from the crankshaft before you can unbolt the engine's bellhousing, i also must tell you that with the engine being 33 inches long, and weighing close to or alittle over 500 lbs without the 70lb cylinder head. the length of the engine gives it's weight much more leverage to tip over, as to being compared to a shorter V8 block. please get some strong support bolted to the front of the straight eight. when i rebuilt my 1953 straight eight years ago, i used a strong workbench to sit the engine on while i assemble it. made it real nice and easy to lay the engine on it's left side, and adjust the valve-lifter gap 0.013 cold. i wish i still had the edmunds head and manifold that i used back in 1976.lol. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) In the manual it says that when you remove the flywheel, you must ream out the dowel hole and use a bigger size dowel pin on the flywheel ... else you will get a leak. Does anyone realy do this? Is there an easier way? Perhaps applying some kind of sealer? Or should I just ignore this?At this point, I really like what I am seeing for the condition of this engine. It really looks like clean and reassemble. It also gives credibility to the 67K odometer reading.The plan for the engine at this point will be home honing the cylinders ... installing a new set of rings ... installing new crank and rod bearings ... rebuild kit for the oil pump ... cleaning the valves and re-seating them, then lapping them. With the condition of the parts I am seeing, I don't see why I would do any more. Even the bearings might be overkill.I even saw a spot where the original engine paint is still showing. The Hirsch paint I got looks like a perfect match.Do you guys apply the engine enamel over a cleaned engine without primer? What are your tips for this part of the project? Edited June 26, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 hi gawajn, i would clean all areas to be painted with paint thinner. parts that have been sandblasted, i would apply primer first. there is on ebay a pair of 1952 pontiac deluxe hubcaps in nos condition. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 there is a gasket in between the flywheel and the crankshaft, i would use a non-hardining permatex sealant where the dowel goes thru the flywheel. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I have never primed an engine before painting. I always figured any "high temp" formula would be enough...although many show cars builders do use a primer... but most of those cars seldom get driven....they are pieces of jewelry to the owners.The Hirsch paint should work very well... another good choice is POR15 engine paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I removed the six bolts holding the flywheel to the crank. It does not want to come off. I don't want to break anything, so I will re-read the manual and try to find out what's up with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 It's likely a tight fit...use a soft hammer or a hammer and a block of wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jusoway Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Pontiac had a underseat heater, this pipe and hoses return coolant from the heater core back to the radiator, another pipe and hoses brought heated coolant from the cylinder head to the heater valve located under the defroster assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I am going to keep a running total going so that we see at a glance, the total cost of this restoration (on the cheap).Car purchase = $3600Taxes and border fees = $380Plates and tags = $315Transportation from Wisconsin to eastern Canada = $1750TOTAL = $6045 (That is my cost of getting this car, with all paper work, into my yard.I will not be adding tool costs or shop materials. That's stuff I should have on hand anyways. As I use parts, services and or specific materials ... I will add the cost to the running total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 It appears you've started on one of the two ways to do a ground-up, off-frame restoration.Way One is take everything apart (which doesn't take long), completely disassemble car, then start restoring each piece, starting with frame.Way Two, which I'd like to try, is to take off one piece at a time, restore that piece, put it on a shelf, then move on to the next piece. Then, when you restore the frame, all you have to do (tongue in cheek "all you have to do") is bolt everything back on!Good luck, nice project and appears to be a solid car.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) I have a friend that lives in the midwest that is guiding me in the engine rebuild. I will be using his advice, and only replacing what need to be replaced. I will not name him unless he tells me otherwise. I don't want all sorts of people calling him up etc ...Here is the first set of instructions ... '' ... keep in mind that all main caps and rods MUST go back together exactly in the same location and direction as they were. These parts are machined, bolted together and only fit that way. Main caps should be marked, #1 thru' the last one, the rear cap. They may not be marked. I use a small sharp punch and mark them in order, and the marks always to the front...one way. You can devise any system you like, but forget writing on them or putting tape on. PUNCH them, so the marks stay no matter what.The rods only fit one way and the numbers punched on them(if they are stamped?) are always towards the camshaft. Check all this before you take anything apart. Rod caps MUST fit to the same rod, in the same direction they were originaly. Piston pins might be a slight off-center and pistons should be marked as to 'front'. Devise a system for everything and don't make any mistakes with this stuff. Main bearing babbitt should be smooth and if it is ... you're home free. They may be worn and a little looser than they should be, but if smooth they can be back-shimmed and made to fit like new... or even better. Certain GM cars had poured babbitt main bearings and with those, you remove a shim or two and then they are snug again. With the replaceable shells, you can only back-shim them to improve fit.... or buy new... ouch...First, take the rod caps off (after marking and such) and keep everything in order. Push the pistons out with the rods on them. Now the crank should turn easily, by hand.To check your main bearing fit, start at the front, number one and remove the cap. cut two pieces of .002 shim stock, one half inch wide (one CM is fine), the length of the bearing and lay them together on the crank journal so as to make a .004 thickness, then put the cap back on and tighten again. If there is no drag at all, your bearing fit is pretty loose and will have to be back-shimmed. If it drags some, a little back shim with the .001 will be in order later on.This will get you started and after it's all done, you will know how to revive an old motor and save some real money in the bargain. Any idiot can get the crank turned undersize, buy all new bearings to fit and then assemble. If things are really worn, grooved and bad.... then this might have to be done but in most cases it's not needed. If you're loaded with money... you go the expensive route. If not... we do it my way.''This is the procedure I will be using to diagnose the bearings, because i am certainly not loaded with money. Every reasonable cost saving measure is welcomed, as long as nothing is done badly ... stay tuned Edited July 3, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 This morning ... I removed the distributor and oil pump ... Nothing fancy ... just unbolt, remove and store. I need to get a puller to remove my harmonic balancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 All things considered she looks good inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) I bought an inexpensive puller to do the job. It is not the correct tool ... but it works ...And it came off quite easily ... Removed the timing pointer ... And then the timing chain cover ... That will do for today ...At this point ... I am thinking of replacing the timing chain. Is there any valid reason to replace the gears along with the chain? Edited July 3, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) Normally I see gears and chains sold as a set. Also, gears wear along with the chain and the rest of the inner workings. Best to replace all while you are in there. I can see from the picture the crank gear has depressions in the teeth from the chain. Get the set. Replace all and rest at night knowing it was done as best possible. Edited July 3, 2012 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I will second replacing the gears and chain. It's not a high revving engine, but the slack in the chain is caused by wear on the gears and the chain itself, and new parts will improve the timing accuracy as well as not give any trouble in the foreseeable future. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I want to keep the cost low, but I will be replacing what needs to be replaced. A set of gears and a chain are not going to break the bank ... and I can see it needs it. I will be changing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I started today by reaming out the ridges at the top of the cylinders using a ridge reamer tool.The first two cylinders ... I honed the top of the cylinder a bit ... but it was not needed so I didn't do that for the remaining 6 cylinders.I then proceded to remove the pistons ... making certain to keep everything in order with the caps put back on the rods the way they came off. The caps were marked from the factory, but the rods were not. I used a number punch to mark the rods with numbers that matched the caps. The side where the number is on the cap is the forward side (number towards the front).There you see cylinder number four ... it is pretty crusty in there.Every rod bearing has some scoring and pitting. Looks like I will need new rod bearings. That means the crank will need to be turned ... the mains are not off yet, but likely the same fate as the rod bearing is waiting to be found out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Just took off the mains ... same thing ... pitting and slight scoring ... Off to see the engine builders for an expert opinion ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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