DAVES89 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 One of the things my friend also talked about is the growing interest in switching cars over to Natural Gas. He says that with Nat.Gas being a supply almost inexhaustable as well as cheap that this might/will be the way of the future. Would something like that work on our engines? Or is that another thing that diesels will mostly benefit from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 GM had some OEM-produced CNG trucks in the 1990s. Where the spare went, there were three tanks laid in transversely between the frame rails. The current conversions have a drop-in tool box-like "box" which contains the two tanks and filling mechanism . . . a pretty neat installation, but you lose a good bit of full-size truck bed length (it installs at the front of the bed and uses a 7 gallon gasoline tank). From what I saw recently on an Automotive News article, Robert Bosch is doing the GM conversions. Should be easier to do with a fuel injection vehicle than when everything was carbureted.Earlier issues were travel range between refuelings. Other issues allegedly include whether the fueling station is "high pressure" or "low pressure", which affects how long it takes to fill the tank(s). Even Honda has a CNG model Accord, but not many of them in the USA. Ford did some Crown Vic police cars back then, too.Just some thoughts,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 88atta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 A point to ponder! When I was first stationed in Spain back in the late 50's, I would venture to say that about 85% of the Seat and Citroen Taxis in Madrid were converted and running butane gas; gasoline in Europe was and continues to be very expensive there(sold by the liter). The gasoline stations throughout the country had their normal gasoline, diesel pumps and a supply of butane canisters readily available to swap for the taxis and general public. The canister was mounted laying on its' side in the trunk in those larger vehicles; it still allowed a lot of space for luggage etc. Please also note, at that time, all gasoline stations were government owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handmedownreatta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 i understand the pump to let you refill at home is very expensive assuming you have natural gas at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMJAnew Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Not sure if you can access the article online, but Northeast Gas Driller paper copy has an article in the current edition. It seems to imply captive, local fleets are where natural gas is going to get its foothold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 There are many commercial vehicles currently running on propane as well as thousands and thousands of propane powered fork lifts in use. Can natural gas technology be that different? A local propane distributor has been running their trucks on propane at least since the 1960s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 It would seem to be a viable alternative, particularly for urban or limited range use. Honda has been selling a CNG Civic ( the DX model I believe), since the late '90's, although it was only available on the coasts. It is natural gas only wth a range of a little over 200 miles or so. It would seem to be great alternative as a commuter car. The home filling station (Phill) is part of the package. I believe there are conversion kits and retrofit companies available now and I would guess there will be more on the way. Personally, I think it is a great idea if the cost isn't prohibitive. I'm not as sure about the Reatta as a conversion candidate primarily due to the limited storage and weight capacity. I would be interested if additional information turns up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 As others have noted, the downside to any compressed gas conversion is the size of the tanks. To get decent range and avoid filling every day, you would probably need to fill the entire trunk with tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 As with any alternative fuels there are trade-offs. Many years ago I had the pleasure of speaking to a Ford Motor Company engineer at a new car introduction meeting when I worked for the dealership. He stated the NG is a very clean fuel and in huge supply in the US (this was many years ago, and I think the supply question is still the same). Engines can run on NG with very little changes. He stated mainly compression ratio and fuel delivery system. Beyond that, that's about it. There are however two trade offs. First, the NG itself, has a much lower BTU rating than gasoline. As such, the engine's performance is nothing in line with the same engine running on gasoline. Secondly, due to problem one, the fuel economy is much lower and much more NG must be stored on board to have any sort of range. The tanks weight a lot which does not help with the mileage issue. The size of the tanks cause packaging problems. There are safety issues as well. The tanks must be placed in the chassis in such a way to minimize damage in a collision. This conversation happened many years ago, but the I think the problems he stated are still valid today. Frankly, I would think that NG car would make more sense than an electric car. Not much would have to change in the IC engine. NG is cheap and plentiful and in the USA, no need to import. NG service is already in many homes. It is a clean fuel, not only for the car but for the environment. It seems like a no brainer. Maybe I'm missing something. Going to your question, I would think you could convert your Reatta in NG. The issue is going to be the placement of the tanks and the weight of those said tanks. Because of the limited space, your range will be nothing like you have with gasoline power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Howard......could you combine NOS and NG (not in the same tank) and get the octain up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 IIRC the equivalent cost of CNG btu's to gasoline was about $2.00/gal. The power density is certainly less, but it is less expensive when using home fueling (no road tax). I would guess, if more on-road fueling stations become available, the cost would be higher. It's part of the issue with alcohol fuels too. You use more but the price split isn't great enough to make it directly competitive with gasoline. There is a certain green factor that may make you feel better? I suspect we will see more development in this area. T.Boone Pickens has been touting this for several years, power the vehicles with natural gas and install a giant wind farm across the center of the country to power everything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 88atta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Like to interject a situation which may deter some members to re-think the use of propane on the C series engines. About 1996 I purchased a used 1990 LeSabre in Louisiana from a reputable dealership at a extremely good price that had been a corporate car. I found out later that the car had been converted to run on propane by the corporate and prior to trade-in been re-converted back to 87 octane. Although it had fairly high mileage (88K) when I bought it, it ran extremely well. One day, about 3 months after purchasing it, I arrived at work, somethiing came up that I had to leave to take care of. I jumped into the vehicle and tried to crank it; it cranked well but would not start; had to leave it and procede to take care of the problem. Returned later that day and tried to start it again; no go; had to turn it over to a mechanic who checked it out and thought it was the timing chain problem...bottom line...found it to be a broken/cracked camshaft; kind of rare happening. Could that failure been caused by the use of the propane for an extended period? Didn't and don"t know but it was more affordable to replace the entire engine with a good used one than trying to rebuild that engine. Edited March 28, 2012 by 88atta (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 i wouldn't think nat gas or propane , etc. would have anything to do with that. more than likely, with a corporate car (or a former gov't car), it's lack of maintenance (oil changes) and/or the drivers "flooring it" all the time, especially when it's not up to operating temp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richard D Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Back in the 1980's a friend put a CNG system in his motorhome with a 383 dodge chassis. It was troublesome, but this was a carburated engine. When cold he would have to start it on gasoline, when engine warmed up switch to CNG. After a year or so he just ran it on gasoline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Dave...I've actually been doing a bit of research on the subject and considering retro-fitting at least one of my vehicles. THe kits are only about 500 but the tanks are very expensive...from $500 to $3000 depending on the size , category and expiration date. YES..they have a an expiration date ......based on the number of "cycles" of fills. They are also large and heavy......a type 1 tank can weigh about 200# for only 11 gallons of fuel. The cost of natural gas at one of ourt local stations is .97 a gallon...so the payoff will be quick. I am considering doing my coupe...but am wavering that my truck mightgive me the best payoff since its the "thirstiest" Also...the horsepower and mileage loss is supposed to be only 10%. Dave Edited March 29, 2012 by dpannell more info.. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Dave thanks for weighing in. Why don't you do the conversion before EAA and when you get here you can show it off. Based on my other post about trying to boost HP as the Reatta is underpowered [iMHO], I can't imagine losing 15-20 more HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handmedownreatta Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 the octane rating of natural gas is 130.it seems to me you could add the super charger to get the power and mpgs back up without stressing the shortblock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Howard......could you combine NOS and NG (not in the same tank) and get the octain up?Barney, I don't know. The engineer, never said anything about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 In the US, propane is found anywhere an IC engine must run indoors, it is clean enough for that since no CO is produced.You may well be able to use boost with LNG to get power back but not MPG. I suspect an entirely different timing curve is needed depnding on the flame propagation rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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