1990 Headlight switch & other stuff

[Bushwack]

I went ahead and purchased a 1990 headlight switch because I read these can't be fixed/re-manufactured once they stop working (unlike a radio). Are there other components "IP-related" (or electronic related) that can't be repaired? For example - can the HVAC controller be repaired?

[padgett]

Depends on what is wrong but just about anything can be repaired, the question is whether it is worth repairing ? Often a replacement unit is much more available and less expensive than the needed parts.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

If I had a 90 I wouldn't be throwing away any headlight switches. Especially if the buttons are in good condition.

I'm sure they can be upgraded with new internal components and be made perfectly useable again. Since most 90s put less current thru the switch than the 88 / 89s it should be even easier than the design I'm looking at for redoing those. Trying to fit contacts capable of handling all the amps inside the housing is the most difficult part. A 90 with an external headlight relay should be much simpler.

[NCReatta]

HVAC controllers can be "repaired" so to speak.

If you're having problems with the buttons not working at time (or not working unless pressed very hard), you can take an index car with some contact cleaner on it, and stick it behind the buttons. I've seen it done a couple times with success.

[DAVES89]

If I had a 90 I wouldn't be throwing away any headlight switches. Especially if the buttons are in good condition.

I'm sure they can be upgraded with new internal components and be made perfectly useable again. Since most 90s put less current thru the switch than the 88 / 89s it should be even easier than the design I'm looking at for redoing those. Trying to fit contacts capable of handling all the amps inside the housing is the most difficult part. A 90 with an external headlight relay should be much simpler.

I wouldn't throw anything away. I send all my "broken" electrical items to others on this forum. What I mean by "broken" is the Switches, Clusters, CRT's Etc. I sometimes get out of my local U-Pick that don't work and may be rebuildable. I still pay what the counter guys ask, because I know that over all I come out ahead and by not complaining the prices stay good.

I have found one out of state yard where the owner likes Reattas [They have 5 of them]. I found him when I called around looking for ABS leads. I called him up last week asking about '90 Headlight Switches, but he didn't have any. He did volunteer that he had a '88/89 switch that looked real nice. Rather then explain that the illuminescent panel is the major concern, I asked what he wanted for it. $35.00 delivered [so I took a chance and bought it] It is the brightest switch I own. I also asked if he had any of the '90/91 owners manuals with the "extras" He has a box or two of various manuals and promises to look, and he also put my name in his Reatta file and promises to call if he finds one or gets another car in. So if I put a manual up for sale you will know I got lucky.

[Guest Kingsley]

Ervin - someone may have mis-told you as the '90 switch can very effectively be rebuilt.

Jim Finn does a great job of rebuilding this switch - all you have to do is send him your old core and it will come back to you in great condition. To the best of my knowledge he will also replace your worn push buttons with ones in better condition but you may wish to check this aspect with him. Last time I saw a quote from him on the Forum, not too long ago, I believe his price was $85.00 with your core.

The '90 switch is much better, less complicated in my estimation. than the earlier models but does require a bit of finesse to accomplish the re-build.

In my plans of things to do is to investigate the pros and cons of replicating the '90 Headlight and Fog Light buttons - these two are the ones that aestetically deteriorate and distract from the overall appearance.

Replicate the entire switch? Certainly not a worthwhile undertaking as long as you have a core available for rebuilding.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Kingsley (see edit history)

[wws944]

The other thing to realize is that any 90-93 Riviera switch will work in a 90 Reatta. You just won't be able to operate the fog lights. If you have a Riv switch with Twilight Sentinel, there is no issue with 'shorting' or bad connections. The fog light connections use different pins than the Twilight Sentinal pins.

[Bushwack]

Ervn (and anyone that need a bit of mirth!)

I believe you graduated from UCLA here with honors (it is an honor to graduate) and that speaks very well; however, in a carefully crafted PM (not a perfunctory one) I am sending you a list of books that, when read, will vastly (means substantial) increase your vocabulary! Touche!

Just wondering if that '90 headlight switch you just bought as a spare had a seal on it?

The seal on the headlight switch is intact. The darn thing looks as close to NOS as can be.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Ervin, moderators, and all,

The reason this thread alway becomes problematic is a matter of definition. It is my contention (see definition) that a switch that has been disassembled and had the contacts cleaned does not fit the definition of rebuilt and should not be referred to as such. I concede that we can and should agree to disagree on what switches are most dependable. I also believe that this forum is not the place to debate pricing. That being said, I have posted the definition of the word "rebuilt" and would hope that from this point forward that we would all use the proper phraseology to describe the condition of available parts. According to the definition "rebuilt" switches don't exist.

rebuilt

See in Thesaurus

Variant of rebuild

transitive verb rebuilt, rebuilding

1.to build anew

2.to restore to a previous condition

3.to repair or remodel extensively, as by taking apart and reconstructing, often with new parts

[Jim]

The '90 headlight switches are one of a kind and only fit the '90 Reatta as that is the only year they had that switch with the fog light button on the bottom. The '91 Reattas and the Rivieras had a similar switch but did not have the fog light button on it.

I have good '90 headlight switches available. These switches have been disassembled, cleaned, checked for any worn parts and those parts replaced if necessary and then put back together with a nice appearing "lights" button. I then test them in my own car to make sure all functions are good.

I sell these switches for $ 65 exchange and guarantee them to be good.

I have an electronics background and these switches are a pretty simple arrangement and have two rocker type contacts. Sometimes someone will push too hard on the lights button and the switches can fall apart. About 50% of the time when this happens it will blow the parking light fuse.

In the '88-89 Reattas the headlight switches are a completely different arrangement of contacts and in these switches the contacts can get pitted or dirty and when this happens heat can be generated and can cause the wires to melt behind the switch but the '90-91 switches are completely different and this will not happen. I have disassembled at least 50 '90 style switches and have never seen pitted contacts.

To the best of my knowledge I am the only one repairing these switches and if anyone ever had a problem with a repaired/rebuilt switch I would be the first to hear of it. I have never had one complaint.

They did make a '90 mid year change in the wiring of the Reattas but the switches did not change and whether I assemble a switch or the factory assembled the switch it will go together the exact same way as it is a very simple assembly.

Sometimes the seal on the outside has been broken. This only means the switch has been opened up. Maybe to replace a worn "lights" button or to replace a broken slider. The seal being intact means nothing only that it has been opened. If the switch works as it should it will be as good as any other original used switch that came from a parts car or a junk yard or anywhere else.

To pay a lot of money for a switch simply because it has an intact seal is a waste of money.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Jim (see edit history)

[wws944]

Just for completeness on this thread, here are four variations of the '90-'93 headlight switches. The two on the left are for '90-'93 Rivieras and the one with Twilight Sentinel is also for '91 Reattas. The two on the right are for '90 Reattas. Note that the two on the right are the 'braille' and 'non-braille' versions. The braille versions are later than the non-braille versions.

[DAVES89]

I've got my wife making popcorn. This is gonna be better then anything on TV...

[Bushwack]

Ya think Seinfeld can write a routine why Buick would put braille on a car's light switch?

[Rawja]

Seems to me it'd be fairly easy to rig a separate pushbutton switch with a couple inline taps to run the fogs which would allow the use of any Riviera headlight switch without sacrificing functionality, no?

On the ongoing "controversy" regarding Jim's refreshed switches, where are all these burned up cars? How is it Jim sells these switches day in and day out and no one is on here complaining? Until and unless an actual flesh and blood individual steps up and relates a problem with one of Jim's switches I say it's safe to assume that there's no problems inherent with Jim's headlight switch refresh regimen.

[KDirk]

I have to concur with Rawja here. To be clear, by no means do I intend to speak for Jim, but hypothetically, if he had a problem with one of his rebuilt switches damaging a car, I expect he would be out of the parts business quickly; yet he's still here so that tells me things are ok. The liability of such a failure could put a company, much less an individual, out of business depending on the damage [purportedly] caused by a switch that induced an electrical fire. What if it was in the garage and burned the house down? Injuries? Deaths?

This is serious business, so one has to be pretty sure they aren't setting themselves up for a big hit by selling something that may come back to bite them. Add to that, one would likely not wish to consider serving a market where they were under threat of litigation from damage or injury allegedly caused by something they had sold. This would be especially true when they are not making a large profit at the endeavor.

Besides that, most here are not known to be shy about speaking up if they think they got a raw deal. I'm sure complaints would pop up here (at least until they were sanitized by a moderator in accordance with stated policy on posting) quickly if somebody paid for a part that didn't work, much less turned their beloved Reatta into a smoldering ruin. Common courtesy would dictate that such disputes be handled in private. Yet, public floggings will always be a possibility in an online setting like this.

Even without the threat of public embarrassment, if anyone here was selling something that had a high failure rate [and thus high rate of complaints] they would probably stop offering it in short order to prevent the ill-will and likelihood of losing money to refunds on bad product.

If we get to the point where every parts sale requires a waiver of liability to be signed to complete a transaction, this hobby is finished. Sometimes, you just have to accept risk for the sake of living. People that can't handle that may as well go crawl in a hole and die, since everything anyone does on a daily basis has some inherent risk.

Just my take. I probably should've avoided this thread, as it has already be nicked once due to things getting contentious.

KDirk

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Roger, Jim, Kevin, Ervin and all,

This is petty funny.

In order for any component to be "rebuilt" it must include the installation of new parts to replace the worn out ones. (see definition of rebuilt) Replacing worn out parts with other worn out parts does not constitute "rebuilt". Roger is more accurate with the word "refreshed". If Jim is "rebuilding" these switches maybe he can provide us with a list of new parts he is installing? Maybe he can tell us all where he is getting these parts so that we can "rebuild" switches too!

Point #2. If GM put a "Security Seal" on these switches I'm wondering why they would do this if it serves no purpose? I for one like to see the seal intact when I plug a switch into my 90 Select 60. Too much at stake.

As far as the damaged cars go it stands to reason that a person that has had trouble with a vendor's parts might just need to get repair parts from a different vendor. Anybody that is a parts vendor hears all the complaints about his competition believe me. I don't know where people are getting their switches but Mike and I both have received requests for wire associated with 90 light switches. After receiving these calls I tend to want the best untampered switch available at whatever price for my own car and only sell parts that I would use myself. I also recommend stock headlight bulbs to keep the draw down. I think we all can agree that the head-lighting system on the Reatta was less than robust. Therefore I am careful with maintenance and suggest others be careful as well. I have found that the number one problem with high mileage Reattas is the use of non or sub standard replacement parts, shade tree mechanics, aftermarket add ons and tampering.

Coincidentally I seldom have trouble with my cars. I must be doing something right.

[Bushwack]

So going back to my original post regarding headlight switches (and similar components), is it fair to say that 95% of the time, it is the contacts that fail and not the other components within the unit (assuming failure is due to wear)? If this is true, then cleaning, repairing or replacing the contacts would make the unit good as new.

This bickering reminds me of when I changed out my tail light bulbs. Part of that thread was deleted, but I questioned why I couldn't get new bulbs to work in a couple sockets. Some suggested the sockets were bad. Others said the wiring was damaged or I wasn't using enough battery grease. It turned out too much battery grease from the previous installation was preventing electrical contact. ...and the bickering was about who is right vs cause and solution.

So what's my point? WHO THE HECK KNOWS ANYMORE!! What I do know is if I'm buying a used part from a trusted source such as Jim, Steve, Marck, Barney, Larry, Shemp, Curly, Manny, Moe or Jack , I feel good about the purchase knowing if it fails after being repaired/refurbished/rehabilitated/restored/reconditioned/regenerated/refreshed/rejuvenated/replenished/renovated/revamped or revitalized, any one of them will stand behind the product and do what is right.

[Guest Kingsley]

Many threads ago, the former Director of the Reatta Club stated that claims or allegations of any nature which became the subject of controversy must be backed up with solid data and made available to the appropriate parties and posted on the Forum. I am not aware of any change in this standard.

For quite a number of years, several individuals have identically dissed, in a cloud of hoopla, the merits of making non-working headlight switches into workable ones and they have as yet to come forward with any, repeat any, substantiating data.

With that in mind, it would appear that there is no basis whatsoever for criticism of the work that Jim Finn does and that criticism is completely irrelavent.

Besides, did Jim Finn ever say that he rebuilt switches?

With respect to the pricing of used parts, a lot of my customers know very little about the availability of used Reatta parts and I feel it most encumbent to give them a competitive price. They have worked hard to earn their money and fixing their Reatta is expensive enough as it is.

Only my philosophy - each seller can do as his conscience dictates.

[Rawja]

This is petty funny.

A more Freudian typo has never been keyed..

If GM put a "Security Seal" on these switches I'm wondering why they would do this if it serves no purpose? I for one like to see the seal intact when I plug a switch into my 90 Select 60. Too much at stake.

Standard practice so as not to have inappropriate warranty claims. I don't think it has any bearing whatsoever on whether one can successfully work on the innards.

As far as the damaged cars go it stands to reason that a person that has had trouble with a vendor's parts might just need to get repair parts from a different vendor. Anybody that is a parts vendor hears all the complaints about his competition believe me. I don't know where people are getting their switches but Mike and I both have received requests for wire associated with 90 light switches. After receiving these calls I tend to want the best untampered switch available at whatever price for my own car and only sell parts that I would use myself. I also recommend stock headlight bulbs to keep the draw down. I think we all can agree that the head-lighting system on the Reatta was less than robust. Therefore I am careful with maintenance and suggest others be careful as well. I have found that the number one problem with high mileage Reattas is the use of non or sub standard replacement parts, shade tree mechanics, aftermarket add ons and tampering.

Coincidentally I seldom have trouble with my cars. I must be doing something right.

Look, I don't understand why there needs to this controversy. Having to buy a used switch rather than new already sucks. If having an intact purple sticker gives you piece of mind and you can afford it go with Steve, otherwise go with Jim. Easy.

I've been frequenting junkyards all the time now that I'm out here in AZ... so this random guy starts talking to me the other day complaining that his last junkyard alternator only lasted about a year and now he's back to get another one... For me, when I can get a part new I do so, but there's plenty of people in there buying ten dollar alternators (or the equivalent) and taking their chances. Neither approach is necessarily the correct one just different approaches to keeping your car on the road.

I recently did the Delco coil pack upgrade to my '88. Padgett uses junkyard ICMs and coils, I put in all brand-new parts. Neither approach is "wrong", and as (bad) luck would have it one of my brand new coils experienced crib death in less than 30 days, perfectly illustrating the point that even going with all-new all the time doesn't provide complete assurance of zero defects.

Putting my moderator hat on now, this forum is still under intense scrutiny and I won't be able to save those who continue to press this non-issue.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Rawja (see edit history)

[Jim]

Besides, did Jim Finn ever say that he rebuilt switches?

.

Roger, Kingsley, Ervin, Kevin and others,

Thanks for the good postings.

In the past I may have used the term "rebuilt". If by definition that is not correct, oh well.

When someone gets a switch from me it will work as good as or better than any other used switch whether or not the seal is on it or not.

Actually when I think about it my switch is probably better than any switch with a seal intact because I have checked the contacts and replaced them with perfect ones if necessary. A switch with the seal intact could have burnt contacts and no one would know and then the fire sure to follow.

The last statement is really in jest. As i have mentioned several times, i have disassembled many many of these and the Riviera switches and on only 4 occasions did I see where the contacts needed to be replaced and in those cases there was only a slight discoloration on the contact.

I keep editing this to add more thoughts. The '88-89 switches are prone to pitting of the contacts. Years ago when I first started working on those switches, I like others would spray or somehow clean the contacts and have limited success. I then looked closer with a magnifying glass and saw that most of the the time the contacts were pitted badly and metal from one contact would be displaced onto the other contact. I had a far greater success with these switches after I found this out and would then take a knife and clean off the displaced metal and then clean the switch. When you have pitted contacts this creates a bad connection and two things happen, the contact ( switch ) does not work correctly and this bad connection causes heat because all the current flow is now going through a much smaller surface area and can cause other problems.

This again is not the case in the '90 or newer Reatta and Riviera switches as those contacts do not get pitted.

Edited February 12, 2012 by MCHinson
Removed inappropriate comment (see edit history)

[waltmail]

How about refurbished or reconditioned for terminology?

[padgett]

Reason I saw some time ago for early non-braille vs later braille was that people trading up from an earlier model were used to pushing in the center of the button & some were complining it was hard to push and possibly breaking some switches. The "braille" is at the point on the side to push.

[Ronnie]

Roger, Jim, Kevin, Ervin and all,

In order for any component to be "rebuilt" it must include the installation of new parts to replace the worn out ones. (see definition of rebuilt) Replacing worn out parts with other worn out parts does not constitute "rebuilt". Roger is more accurate with the word "refreshed". If Jim is "rebuilding" these switches maybe he can provide us with a list of new parts he is installing? Maybe he can tell us all where he is getting these parts so that we can "rebuild" switches too!.

transitive verb rebuilt, rebuilding

1.to build anew

2.to restore to a previous condition

3.to repair or remodel extensively, as by taking apart and reconstructing, often with new parts

Let's all take a look at the definition you gave us of rebuilt to see if we can determine if Jim is actually rebuilding the switches or doing something else to them. The words must and often are not interchangeable and do not have the same meaning. It's obvious that you are twisting words, including your own, to support your position on this subject. You are highlighting words like "anew" to suggest new parts are needed. as you can see from the definition of anew below that just is not the case.

anew [əˈnjuː]adv

1. Once more; again.

2. In a new and different way' date=' form, or manner.

[/quote']The word "anew" does not mean new parts are needed as applied to this subject, but to the contrary it means you are doing something, (1.) once more, (2.) in an new and different way.

So lets see if Jim meets the definition, that you gave us (quoted above), for rebuilt.

1.to build anew - Yes, Jim meets the criteria for anew. He is doing the job again and he is doing it in a new and different way from what the factory did.

2.to restore to a previous condition - Yes, Jim meets this criteria. He takes an item that is in a non-working condition and restores it to a working condition.

3.to repair or remodel extensively, as by taking apart and reconstructing, often with new parts - Yes, Jim meets this criteria. He takes the switches apart, cleans them up, replaces parts, and probably does other things to them that I'm not aware of. I would say that is pretty extensive.... I can't do it and I'm a pretty good electrician and mechanic.

To sum it up, in my opinion Jim is rebuilding headlight switches. He fits the criteria as laid out in the definition you provided for rebuilding. Just my opinion.

Now I know there is going to be controversy about the words "often with new parts" This post has already gotten too long so I will let someone else pickup on that if they so desire.

[Jim]

Reason I saw some time ago for early non-braille vs later braille was that people trading up from an earlier model were used to pushing in the center of the button & some were complining it was hard to push and possibly breaking some switches. The "braille" is at the point on the side to push.

Padgett,

I am sure you are correct. About the only reason these switches will come apart is because someone is pushing too hard on the hinge side of the button. With the braille the operator can see and feel where to press on the button.

[Rawja]

Now I know there is going to be controversy about the words "often with new parts" This post has already gotten too long so I will let someone else pickup on that if they so desire.

Let's not, okay?

[wws944]

Padgett,

I am sure you are correct. About the only reason these switches will come apart is because someone is pushing too hard on the hinge side of the button. With the braille the operator can see and feel where to press on the button.

Looking at the non-braille switch in my photo, the point of surface wear on the button is clearly both lower and closer to the hinge than where the braille dots are in the others.