X-Frame Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I know of the Crash Test posted various places and the background of the chassis safety issues but... There is supposed to be a photograph from World Wide Photos/Associated Press that was published in newspapers all over the country in late 1959. This shows a Chevrolet Impala that had struck a tree broadside and broke in half.I have read of the photo but has anyone seen it or have a copy?Eric Edited January 26, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 There's a short video of a 1930s Chevy car running into a barricade and pretty much collapsing like a bunch of match sticks. The more recent one was of a 1959 Chevy sedan against a recent model Malibu. I think both of these are on YouTube somewhere. They were popular about a year ago and links posted on many forums, including somewhere in the AACA forums.There is a picture of Ernie Kovak's Corvair wreck, which I found via Google last weekend.And then there's the television commercial where a man has a '58 Ford frame (rolling chassis, with a front seat mounted on the frame), comparing it to a GM X-frame as to side impact protection. In this case, there's a concrete wrecking ball handy, which is swung at the frame with the commentator seat-belted in. Drama??? Suspense??? The driver is seated inside of the frame's outer perimeter, so he's untouched. Compare that to a GM X-frame situation . . . which is one way that Ford sold "safety" back then.Check it out . . .NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coley Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Back in 1963 we had a 1958 go into a large tree at a good speed.The car came apart in the middle. Killed the driver, but not the passenger.It hit on the passenger door..how could that have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Back in 1963 we had a 1958 go into a large tree at a good speed.The car came apart in the middle. Killed the driver, but not the passenger.It hit on the passenger door..how could that have been?Luck and someone watching over them. Back in those days even though seatbelts were around, not many people used them and there was a theory that you needed to keep your doors unlocked while driving in case of an accident. Either the doors were designed to spring open to throw the passenger away from the car (more likely under it) or emergency crews can get in the car if you are knocked out. Different mindset those days.Have seen the crash videos but seeking that crash photo that was in the newspapers late 1959 that started the controvercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Funny thing is that this frame design was supposedly influenced by the Mercedes Benz frame that is similar in design used on their expensive 300 series cars from the early 1950s. And there has been other cars, especially German, that had extremely narrow chassis frames yet were successful and no one seems to talk about disasters in them?One of the reasons given by GM designers to drop this design was because it was too stiff so transferred road noise more than the 1965 onwards perimeter frame which was re-tuned along with the body for more flex and less noise.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earl e rizer Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I can tell you the x-frame GM cars had serious rust and breaking problems from 58 to 64 from personal experience. I lived in Nova Scotia in the 50's thru 70's and had a few of those cars. They were the weakest of all the Big 3 cars in that era. We were constantly patching and welding them up to pass Safety check. Seen plenty of them driving and parked with sagging rear bodies due to rust and breakage by the rear axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 ...There is a picture of Ernie Kovak's Corvair wreck, which I found via Google last weekend...NTX5467Is this the one?I would thought someone as successful as Kovacs would have driven something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The picture I found via Google was from the front, but looks like the same thing.I thought I remembered Kovaks was driving a Rolls, not a Corvair. Incognito?Take care,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 He did but..."On Jan. 12, 1962, Kovacs was putting the finishing touches on a new film in which he was co-starring with comedian Buster Keaton. Kovacs left work at about 11 p.m. to attend a party at the home of director Billy Wilder in the Brentwood area of Los Angeles, in honor of Milton and Ruth Berle's newly adopted son. Kovacs drove to the party in his white Rolls-Royce, while his wife, singer Edie Adams, drove from home in their new Corvair station wagon. At about 1:30 a.m., Kovacs and Adams left the party to head home to their 17-room mansion on Bowmont Drive in Los Angeles, with Adams driving the Rolls and Kovacs following her, behind the wheel of the tiny Corvair.About five minutes later, Kovacs was headed south on Beverly Glen Boulevard. As he turned left onto Santa Monica Boulevard, he lost control of the car on the rain-slickened street, and skidded sideways into a steel utility pole at an estimated 50 miles per hour. The impact crushed the driver's door, and Kovacs suffered a fractured skull and broken ribs, which ruptured his aorta, the main artery from the heart. He died quickly, 10 days before his 43rd birthday. His body was partially thrown from the passenger-side door of the wreckage, and an unlit cigar was found on the pavement near Kovacs' hand, leading to speculation that he might have been trying to light the cigar, which caused him to lose control."Sorry for the thread hi-jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Interesting story but no, the photo I'm seeking was in 1959 and involved a 1959 Chevrolet Impala. The car was ripped in two pieces after hitting a tree. This is when they started questioning the sturdiness of side impacts and the thin frame in the middle (where it broke) with no side rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I didn't a very thorough search of the net for your '59 Impala crash and came up empty handed.Is there any more info you could offer about the article, such as a more specific date, maybe what newspapers it could have shown up in. Apparently it doesn't seem to have any obvious or usual tags to link it to.Maybe it isn't particularly an Impala or a 1959? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 It was seen in some trade journals of the day and from what I understand was in multiple newspapers around the country. All I know it was in the Fall of 1959, was a Associated Press (AP) story and the photo was by World Wide Photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Bleach... did you see my question about the 1963 Riviera chassis in the Buick Rivera Owner's section? I see you owned one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No, I haven't seen it yet. I'll look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I may be wrong about "trade journals" having this but see that Consumer Bulletin by Consumer's Research magazine in 1959 I believe carried the photo and possibly Ralph Nader's 1972 book "Unsafe At Any Speed"....I don't have either but see Google has a "snippet" text and again, I don't have the full access here but this is the text snippet:Nader:In the fall of 1959, a photograph of a Chevrolet Impala that was broken in half after striking a tree broadside was widely circulated in newspapers throughout the country. The frame had severed at the intersection of the X.Consumer Bulletin:The driver lost control of the car on a slippery road, and the car, a Chevrolet Impala, struck the tree broadside with the result that the car was broken into two parts. The frame fractured at the “intersection” of the X.If anyone has access to these publications possibly they can post the picture? There may be more including searching Newspaper archives? Edited January 30, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 That' a few more good leads that should yield something, at least another lead.At the moment, I don't have anything to add to your Riviera thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 You know, I have looked and looked and looked until I am crosseyed and can not find a copy of that photo. I know of one copy at least in the 1959 Consumer's Research magazine. I ran across a college that has it archived and trying to see if they will scan the page.I even tried on Ancestry.com to see in the newspaper archives there if I could come up with something but obviously this was a bit more obscure than written about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I did too. Hope you have luck with the college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 The local library that showed having them discarded their copies years ago. I was able to locate it on microfilm at a college library which is also open on Saturday and sunday and will go there hopefully this weekend sometime and get that page that shows the crash picture.I only see that General Motors came to investigate the crash but don't see a court case. There is a later case involving a 1961 Chevy Station Wagon that was broadsided in 1966 (I believe). The family of the deceased lost because the court said that General Motors was not obligated to add side rails, that the cars were tested to make sure they were reasonably safe, and that automobiles are not built for anything more than general transportation. That it wasn't the "car's" fault that it was in an accident.Times have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Some libraries have back issues of the New York Times with an excellent index. Might be worth a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hey everyone... I found the pictures in archived newspapers but so far they are in terrible condition. Need to find more original sources. Turns out Ralph Nader was wrong in his book and it wasn't a Chevrolet but a Pontiac. Same principal though and had the same X frame without side rails.Happened in Ogden, UT on November 28, 1959. Says 3 people were killed with one mangled body found in the rear section. Skidded 519 feet before broadsiding the tree and tore in two.If anyone can find these pictures and post it would be great! The photo I saw first was taken by UPI Telephotos.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 How fast does one need to be going to skid 1/10 of a mile and still have enough energy to split the vehicle in two when it hit an object? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Maine Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Not to hijack this, but when the Mustang came out in 1964, a young man in my town was given one by his father - a red convertible. Two weeks after he got the car, he lost control on a curve and hit a fire hydrant at high speed. The car broke in 2 or 3 pieces. I can still see the pictures from the newspaper in my mind. I've forgotten now how many were killed - it was more than just the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kingoftheroad Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 hey, you guys are raining on a perfectly good delusion I have going that tells me my Riv is fairly safe on the road and taking a hit on the road...lolI always thought these old cars were safe like tanks on todays roadways. No ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 How fast does one need to be going to skid 1/10 of a mile and still have enough energy to split the vehicle in two when it hit an object?The paper said between 75-100 mph when it hit. There were 3 kids killed between the ages of 17-21 and the car belonged to one of their father. The front part of the car launched 50-feet into the air and landed on its hood trapping two of the kids under that. The back part was so wedged in the tree that it took crowbars to pry it loose and one kid was mangled in it. There was glass 75-feet away.This was an extreme case and sure that an ordinary side impact was more survivable. The later accident I mentioned that happened involving a 1961 Chevrolet Station Wagon (not the one with picture posted) happened 1964 in Evansville, Indiana. He died due to a fractured skull and crushed chest but also had his 1-1/2 year old daughter in the car who only had minor injuries. He pulled out into the road and was sideswiped. An injury like that could have happened to any car even with a ladder frame. His wife appealed and the case was dismissed in 1966 with the verdict for GM also mentioned.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Sounds to me like the speed involved contributed more to the car disintegrating in the crash than the design of the frame. You have to ask how much better a ladder or perimeter frame would have fared in a similar crash at similar speeds. Even those are generally C'd metal sections unless a HD boxed frame is specified.I daresay even most unit body cars would have fared about as badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hey everyone... I found the pictures in archived newspapers but so far they are in terrible condition. Need to find more original sources. Turns out Ralph Nader was wrong in his book and it wasn't a Chevrolet but a Pontiac. Same principal though and had the same X frame without side rails.Happened in Ogden, UT on November 28, 1959. Says 3 people were killed with one mangled body found in the rear section. Skidded 519 feet before broadsiding the tree and tore in two.If anyone can find these pictures and post it would be great! The photo I saw first was taken by UPI Telephotos.EricI found a website that has an archived copy of the paper. Is this the same one you came across Eric?Ogden Standard Examiner, November 28, 1959 : Front Page : NewspaperARCHIVE.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 I found a website that has an archived copy of the paper. Is this the same one you came across Eric?Ogden Standard Examiner, November 28, 1959 : Front Page : NewspaperARCHIVE.comYes, that is it.This only shows the front of the car. A newspaper in Texas shows the back of it.I have the full size pages of these but would like to see what General Motors did when they came "immediately" to the site per Nader's book?I am hoping to get good clean copies of the photos to add to my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 I am still going to look at the Consumers' Bulletin entry to see if by some chance that there was another crash. The one they and Nader mention is an Impala that skidded on a wet road. The common things were that both were 1959 models, hit a tree broadside, split in two, happened in the Fall (this accident happened in November), and the story went national. Too many similar things to not be the same but wonder where they got that this Pontiac was a Chevrolet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Another article that was printed in a Salt Lake City newspaper went into more detail saying the right rear wheel wrapped around the tree. That the front section catapulted end over end resting 27 feet away from the rear section and two of the occupants were crushed under that while the third was mangled in the rear section crushed against the tree. I am also seeing what one picture described as a "hardtop convertible". Of course Pontiac didn't make such a thing but I may be seeing a convertible top on the rear section. That could also contribute to the center weakness hitting a tree broadside at 75-100 mph!Looking at a Google map of the road where it happened, it was along a 90-degree curve and happened at 2:00am so you know booze and speed were all in play here.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shadetree77 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Not to hijack this thread or anything, but have you guys seen this video? I always thought those old cars were like tanks out on the road too until I saw this. Made me a little more cautious behind the wheel of my '52.<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1_ptUrQOMPs" allowfullscreen="" width="560" frameborder="0" height="315"></iframe>Crash test Chevrolet 1959 vs Chevrolet 2009 - YouTube(link in case video didn't work)This one shows the interior shots.<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fPF4fBGNK0U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>2009 Chevy Malibu vs 1959 Bel Air Crash Test - YouTube(link in case video didn't work) Edited February 22, 2012 by shadetree77 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 The Malibu v. Impala crash test may also be a bit unfair. The Impala was old and so may have had a weakened frame, the impact was at an angle, and the Malibu was front wheel drive so there was a stronger frame to house that. Have you seen some of the direct wall crash tests on some of these NEW cars? Crushed to the dash on many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest my3buicks Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The Malibu v. Impala crash test may also be a bit unfair. The Impala was old and so may have had a weakened frame, the impact was at an angle, and the Malibu was front wheel drive so there was a stronger frame to house that. Have you seen some of the direct wall crash tests on some of these NEW cars? Crushed to the dash on many.Crushed and blown apart to be exact - exactly what they are supposed to do - they absorb the impact so you don't.I am sure the results would have been the same if you had a time machine bring a brand new off the line 59 Chevy to the same test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 That 59 Chevy / New Malibu test has been here before and every time it comes up a lot of people say it was rigged, the 59 was rusted out, etc. Afraid not folks! There was no crash test engineering in the old days like there is today and the reality was that cars were deathtraps in an accident. I love both of my old cars but I know the steering column is a solid spear aimed at my chest, all that chrome trim inside is waiting to chop me up, the seats will fold up and crush me, and all that heavy sheet metal on outside would fold up like an accordian with me inside if I get hit. So drive safely and watch out for the other guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Don, I know that discussion has come up before and to get into it again would only lead to a pissing match. All I can say is that I have seen cars from the 1930s-1940s that seem to fare better in things like roll-over crashes than today's cars. One thing I have noticed in these various discussions... no one is able to find the complete study of the crash results nor breakdown photos of the 1959 car after the crash. One person mentioned the frame being removed for inspection but where are the pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Good Afternoon everyone...I finally got to the college library to look up that photo in the 1959 Consumers' Bulletin magazine showing the crash.Got good and bad news... first, their reader was junk but are getting new ones so the "scan" would not save very well. I will go back and capture it when they have new digital readers installed next month.What I found was that this is a "different" car! Wow, I found a second car in the national news which wasn't the same as in the magazine or what Nader was referring to. It was in fact a Chevrolet Impala BUT it wasn't a 1959 but a 1958 and again, a convertible.So... has anyone run across that photo? It shows the front end sitting upright (basically an untouched front clip) in the foreground and in the background the rear section but it wasn't wrapped as badly around the tree as the Pontiac I found. The accident would have happened in September or October but it doesn't say when or where. It was published in the November 1959 issue of the magazine, page 39 - in case anyone has access and can send me a good hi-res scan of it?Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomeroy41144 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It is wicked how that A-pillar and driver's door fold up and crush in on that old 1959 Chevy. Yikes. PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earl e rizer Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I am like every one on this site in the fact that I love old cars.....but in an accident i would much prefer a new model, crash engineered one. When cruising down the road in my 72 Imperial looking out over that expanse of sheet metal called a hood leads me to have a certain comfort of say similar to riding in a tank. Their legendary status in Demolition Derbys tends to reinforce that warm, fuzzy feeling. Then when I hop in my '06 Dodge Charger I usually do a mental comparison. Which would I survive a head on crash? Likely the Charger would see me through better due to air bags, crumple zones and 34 more years of better engineering. I'm a victim of a '59 Ford steering column trying it's best to skewer me in a car meets bridge abutment accident when I was a teenager.Believe me when i say new is better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I am like every one on this site in the fact that I love old cars.....but in an accident i would much prefer a new model, crash engineered one. When cruising down the road in my 72 Imperial looking out over that expanse of sheet metal called a hood leads me to have a certain comfort of say similar to riding in a tank. Their legendary status in Demolition Derbys tends to reinforce that warm, fuzzy feeling. Then when I hop in my '06 Dodge Charger I usually do a mental comparison.Which would I survive a head on crash? Likely the Charger would see me through better due to air bags, crumple zones and 34 more years of better engineering.I'm a victim of a '59 Ford steering column trying it's best to skewer me in a car meets bridge abutment accident when I was a teenager.Believe me when i say new is better!I am surprised you would omit the Imperial as a safe car over other lighter ones. But I would rather have a pre 1967 model that had a massive side rail frame. I have owned both... a 1963 LeBaron (forest green, white leather), a 1972 LeBaron (black on black in black leather), and a 1975 LeBaron (white on white in white leather). Granted, the '72 is sleek looking but the '63 I was more safe feeling in and had much thicker gauge sheetmetal too. The early Imperials were often banned from demolition derbys due to their indestructibility.Picture of a 1972 Imperial and a 1963 Crown body/frame diagram below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I am surprised you would omit the Imperial as a safe car over other lighter ones. But I would rather have a pre 1967 model that had a massive side rail frame. I have owned both... a 1963 LeBaron (forest green, white leather), a 1972 LeBaron (black on black in black leather), and a 1975 LeBaron (white on white in white leather). Granted, the '72 is sleek looking but the '63 I was more safe feeling in and had much thicker gauge sheetmetal too. The early Imperials were often banned from demolition derbys due to their indestructibility.Picture of a 1972 Imperial and a 1963 Crown body/frame diagram below. This post makes me want to rethink what to buy for my next antique vehicle. I wonder if they are about as safe as anything on the roads these days, excepting of course for things like air bags, ABS and shoulder belts which except for the latter I could care less about.What year range are we talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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