Oy! New Refrigerant?

[Rawja]

From the RockAuto April Newsletter:

Refrigerant Changes Lead to Higher AC Repair Costs

Owners of 1994 and newer cars, this is the time to fix your air conditioner. Not just because warm summer days are coming (hurray!) and RockAuto has AC compressors, condensers, evaporators, and other AC parts that we are eager to sell. Fix your AC because you will soon officially be joining the owners of 1993 and older cars in having environmentally unfriendly and expensive refrigerant under your hoods.

In 1994, R-12 (branded as Freon) refrigerant was replaced with R-134a in new vehicle AC systems. R-12 had contributed to holes in the earth’s ozone layer. Production of new R-12 was banned in the United States and most other countries. The price of recycled R-12 skyrocketed. R-12 smuggling became as lucrative as drug smuggling. The last time I had an AC system charged, the R-12 cost $60 a pound.

Now R-134a is on the chopping block because it has a “global warming potential” (GWP) of 1400. Carbon dioxide is the baseline with a GWP of 1. This means R-134a is a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming 1400 times as much as an equal amount of CO2.

Regulations now specify that refrigerants have a GWP of less than 150. New vehicles in Europe are required to have low GWP refrigerant starting this year. In the US, low GWP refrigerant will be phased in from 2013 to 2016 depending on the vehicle manufacturer.

The preferred new refrigerant is something called R-1234yf. It has a GWP of only 4. It requires special lubricating oils and handling equipment. It is also slightly flammable. AC fittings will be changed to help prevent the mixing of R-1234yf with R-134a.

This time around the production of the old refrigerant, R-134a, will not be banned. But R-134a will be federally taxed so its price is forced up from about $10 a pound to about $40 a pound, the expected price of R-1234yf. The tax is intended to further discourage people from attempting to use R-134a in one of the upcoming new cars designed to use R-1234yf.

This means refrigerant for the typical two pound R-134a AC charge will cost $80 instead of $20. That lost $60 might buy an AC O-ring set, an AC receiver drier or help pay for labor or other needed air conditioning parts. If your AC system needs work or frequent recharging, you will likely save some money by fixing it sooner rather than later.

Tom Taylor,

RockAuto.com

Anyone know about this?

[Guest re-reatta]

Time to stock up on the R-134A, I guess.

[NCReatta]

Dang..my '89 is still on R-12.. though I think I need to overhaul the whole system. It's gotta leak and I think the compressor's fried...

Oh well.. another thing to do when cash can make it's way around here....

[KDirk]

Eh,

I am of the belief that this is a move by the HVAC industry to take readily available over the counter refrigerant out of the hands of the consumer. The climate impact bit provides a nice cover story as it not only makes it seem like they are doing a good thing, but that it is out of their control ("oh, it was mandated by Gov't") so "you can just stop complaining now."

R134A has been a cheap, readily available refrigerant for years. Of course, so was R-12 back in the day. I know a guy who used to buy small cans of 12, line them up and use them for target practice just to get the small explosion for entertainment. That's how cheap it used to be.

Now that 12 systems have been almost completely killed off (sure there are some cars and a few household setups out there still, but 95% of the R-12 systems have been refitted or replaced) they have to start the cycle of regulating the current refrigerant of choice and making it expensive to get. This will also force more retrofit work, something the HVAC and auto service industries have a vested interest in seeing continue. This is why lobbyists make the big bucks.

An added "benefit" is that this new R-1234yf sounds like it is just unstable/dangerous (flammable?) enough that it will never be sold retail to end-users making it guaranteed work for those in the refrigeration business for years to come. I don't begrudge anyone making a living, and I am a trade worker (plumber) myself so I know what it is like to have work lost to do-it-yourself types. Yet, I am a do-it-myself type because I know what I am doing and enjoy the satisfaction of doing my own work. And yes, it saves me money.

This stuff is just a way to make work (like the old adage of breaking perfectly good windows just to keep the glazier busy) since there is rampant overcapacity and not enough legitimate work to be done to keep everyone busy full time.

I may sound cynical, but this cycle has been repeated 3 times now in my lifetime (R-12, R-22, now r-134A) so that's an average of every 12 years they are forcing a change in refrigerants. I will predict right now that the refrigerants that replaced R-22 about 3 years back will be regulated out of use in about another 7-9 years so they can sell more refits and replacements of household condensers and A-coils. You watch, it'll happen.

Meanwhile, I am going to get some more 134A.

KDirk

[wws944]

There are still stocks of R-12 around. Both of the mechanics that I use say they have no problems getting it. Both recommend staying with R-12 - unless you have larger problems such as replacing a failed compressor.

My Reatta has a recent charge of R-12 in it, thanks to a long-time friend (like, since we were in kindergarten) whose extended family has been in the commercial HVAC business for many years. Between he and his cousin, we dug up some R-12 and gauges from the back of the shop, and spent a fun morning getting the system back into shape.

[Guest CL_Reatta]

It's just like the standard TV system...they just need another way to make money. when R134a came out it was supposedly super safe for the environment... but now it's dangerous? how does that work? Right now is the time to buy thousands of cans of R134a and in 15 years will be able to sell them at 300% the original purchase price lol

[harry yarnell]

I take issue with the comment on 'change' of the tv standards comparing it with the Freon changes.

The change to digital tv and 1080 lines was way overdue, and a wonderful improvement. To bad content didn't improve.

How about Microsoft coming out with a new operating system every two years.

As for the Freon changes, I'm convinced the chemical companies are behind this holding of prices inflated.

[Guest WEB 38]

Just a few years ago I was paying $20 for a case of 12 at Sams club for 134a now its $10 a can. Just another way of ripping us off. Bill WEB 38

[KDirk]

Actually, the price of 12 has peaked, and is now going back down due to decreased demand. So many systems that used it have been refitted or replaced that the existing supplies are now greater than the need for it.

R-22 is next up to peak in price, since there are still a lot of home and small commercial systems that use it. The mandate for 13 SEER on residential HVAC systems brought about Puron and other new formulas that of course are much more expensive. All from DuPont which I believe is an acronym for "Don't Underestimate the Profitability of Needless Technology"

What gets me is that we were told to refit 12 systems to 134a, now those of us who did will undoubtedly get nicked again to retrofit to something else that doesn't work as well a 134a, which itself wasn't as good as 12 in terms the maximum temperature drop it could produce. Also more prone to leaks in older systems, since it's molecular size is smaller than 12 was.

Oh, and the TV thing? Sure the improved resolution is nice, but that was totally about money. Recyclers being able to charge $20 a piece to handle hazmat in old TV's, retailers moving large quantities of new sets - and entertainment centers to accommodate them - subsidized converters to get ATSC signals with old sets (easy money for the manufacturers of these 50 cent boxes of junk from uncle sugar) and the FCC being able to auction "our spectrum" (a public resource) to the highest bidder.

Since the band formerly occupied by NTSC is some of the best spectrum available in terms of usability over distance at high speed and high bandwith, it is clear they wanted to repurpose this for wireless phone and networking use as that is the growth industry. Profits from re-selling the spectrum was the only money to be had by the USA since all the electronics for broadcasting and receiving is made offshore. Nice racket if you can get it.

I will concur that most of the programming still stinks, even at improved resolution. I still have my CRT 27" Trinitron and will run it till the magic smoke comes out (again - already rebuilt the power supply once).

KDirk

[Thriller]

I will concur that most of the programming still stinks, even at improved resolution. I still have my CRT 27" Trinitron and will run it till the magic smoke comes out (again - already rebuilt the power supply once).

Hilarious to see the phrase "magic smoke" from a plumber. I went through electrical engineering in university before Marck was a twinkle in anyone's eye and in our labs we let out the magic smoke a few times.

Thanks for bringing back the memories....

[ptt]

Heres my magic gas story.....I have successfully used Envirosafe refridgerant in some Shadow and Lebaron Convertibles that I have redone. It was/is illegal in about 18 states back in the late '90s but it works better than R134a and rivals R12 in cooling performance using less gas/pressures!. It is a blend of propane and butane basically. The states that banned it did so allegedly because it was "FLAMMABLE" and posed a hazard to passengers in an accident if it reached its flash point if/when it escaped the AC system. They banned it even though there was not a single verified incident of injury from a flash fire caused by an accident....in the whole country. The propane/butane blend has been used for decades in countries like Australia and other countries that dont let LOBBYING big business dictate consumer choice. I personally have a 1994 Lebaron GTC Convertible that has been on the Envirosafe-12 propane/butane blend for the past 11 years w/o any problems other than a leaking service port valve. And it still blows 39F on 100F+ days here in MO. Barrier hoses are necessary as the blend molecules vary in size and can bleed through older hose materials. Less refridgerant (20%+ less) and lower system pressures benefit the entire systems longivity. The arguement about the flammability and fire threat from 12oz of blended

Envirosafe-12 refridgerant seems to pale when one considers the 10-30 gals of unleaded gasoline one sits on top of......AC shop owners detest the various gases that owners can and do install themselves as it takes potential profit out of their pockets.:eek:

Edited April 10, 2011 by ptt (see edit history)

[harry yarnell]

One of the reasons AC shops don't like knock-off refrigerants is that they poison thier recovery machines and collection tanks. You don't mix refrigerants.

[wws944]

Hilarious to see the phrase "magic smoke" from a plumber....

Nowadays plumbers should know a thing or two about electronics. The tankless water heaters are full of them. Another example: the carpet cleaning guy that I use has a degree in physics. He can talk the chemistry of dyes, stains, and cleaners all day long. Just likes owning his own business, rather than working in some govt lab.

As far as this new-fangled R-1234yf (I wonder who came up with that name...), note:

...This time around the production of the old refrigerant, R-134a, will not be banned. But R-134a will be federally taxed so its price is forced up from about $10 a pound to about $40 a pound...

So now we get to the crux of the matter. Follow the money. More excuses for more taxation.

[KDirk]

Pretty much. When something like this happens, one should always ask the question "to whose benefit is this?". I think the answer is rather obvious, and in the end everything seems to be about money, or more specifically how someone (or something, such as a government) can legally steal as much as possible from everyone else. This is what innovation has been reduced to, an officially sanctioned skimming operation. Why bother turning an honest profit? It's too much work.

Getting off that subject and back to refrigerant, as Harry said, substitute refrigerants do not play nicely with recovery systems. That said, shops are not putting this stuff in as a rule, they are DIY type products. I doubt many of the systems that have Envirosafe, Freeze-12 or other such knock-offs ever get hooked to a proper recovery/recycling rig as these are used by us shade tree mechanics to charge an already empty (leaked down) system ourselves after repair and avoid the costs of going to the shop.

I will say, as a plumber, that the HVAC industry has done an exceptional job of protecting their work and the tools/supplies necessary to do refrigerant work in particular. If only the plumbing industry had been so insistent on not allowing all our material and fixtures to be sold retail, we would not be scrounging for work like we are now. The thing is, our major materials are not treated like a controlled substance, so there is no built in regulation like there is with refrigeration work. Since anybody can buy just about anything needed to do plumbing (well, except for the knowledge of how to do it right) at the hardware store they buy $60 (piece of garbage) toilet outfits and laugh at us trying to sell a decent one with proper installation for a few hundred.

They stop laughing and begrudgingly call us when it starts leaking all over the floor and ruins the ceiling below. And yes, this is a common scenario. I think 20-30% of the work I get is fixing screw-ups that people made trying to squeeze a nickel and do it themselves. Then they are doubly upset because they have to pay to do it over right, and I end up being the bad guy. The one thing I hate about the job is how plumbers are looked down on by so many. Hey, we touch messes that make mere mortals gag. I know the job isn't glamorous, and there are a lot of idiots working in the business (yet this is true of any business) but how about some respect already?

Oh well, just like ER doctors, I come home with some great stories and can laugh at the stupid things I see people try to do when their confidence far exceeds their actual abilities. Sometimes it's nice to be reminded that you really are as good as you think you are.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

A plumbers motto "Your s*** is our bread and butter".

[PONTIAC1953]

well, why am i not surprised, another a/c gas being labeled unfriendly and will be jack up in price. there is no real proof or truth about the damaging the ozone layer, just more money for the makers of freon gases. when dupont's patent on R12 ran out, guess what, no more royalty payments, so they paid the lawmakers to make this cockamamie story with the tree huggers to phase out R12, and guess what, oh we have a new gas, a new patent, another thirty some odd years to collect royalty payments. now they're doing the same thing to R134, which is by the way, is a real crappy gas in the first place. the jimmy carter created EPA needs to be dismantled, and shut down pernamently. see what they're doing to the gasoline lately. i'll just bet old al gore is rubbing his hands together, trying to come up with another book that's full of lies. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

[padgett]

Just an observation - a case (12 cans) of R134a at Sam"s was $36 in 2009, $68 in 2010, and $96 today.

[Guest Richard D]

I am fed up, I saw an offer for a 30# bottle of R-12 for $500.00 and I think I will buy it and never worry about people telling me what I can use and can't use any more. When I had the compressor, O-Tube and accumulator replaced last year I went to the trouble of finding EsterCool that can be used with R-12, R-134a and a bunch of others, and now, my RANT! Yes I know that the NTSC system has been in use since 1955 and is bandwidth hungry, however I just read a 1988 Radio Electronics magazine that had a Hi-Def section on what we could expect. The first sentence was that the FCC requires that any new system must be backwards compatible so that millions of portable TVs don't become trash. I collected micro and mini color and B/W TVs, one of the coolest was the Panasonic CT-101 with a color 1.5 inch CRT. Plus I used them during power failures after a hurricane. The new portable digital sets will not receive anything without an outside antenna. A year before NTSC went away a CT-101 was $450.00, now $20.00.:mad:

Edited April 12, 2011 by Richard D (see edit history)

[padgett]

Last year a 30# jug of R-12 was going for $300 in the Orlando area (several CL postings)

[wws944]

... Yes I know that the NTSC system has been in use since 1955 and is bandwidth hungry, however I just read a 1988 Radio Electronics magazine that had a Hi-Def section on what we could expect. The first sentance was that the FCC requires that any new system must be backwards compatible so that millions of portable TVs don't become trash.

At one time, HD was going to be an analog system. They have used analog HD in Japan, among other places. But it took the FCC so long to figure out which system to standardize on, that they finally just jumped to the digital system instead.

The thing I object to is having the taxpayer foot the cost of all those converter boxes. None of which were manufactured in the US. Most were really poor. Though there were a few good ones that those in the know sought out. (E.g., the Channel Master CM-7000 - of which I am a great fan.) They should have decided on a system much earlier than they did, and let the market pull towards digital on its own.

[padgett]

Zenith box was pretty good for a few shekels extra.

[wws944]

Zenith box was pretty good for a few shekels extra.

Yeah, the Zenith was also one of the good ones. I chose CM-7000s because they had S-video outputs. But if you were using it with grandmas old Philco, it would be a coin toss between the two.

[padgett]

BTW the gov insisted that boxes approved for the rebate output only at 480p. No component output.

[NCReatta]

A plumbers motto "Your s*** is our bread and butter".

Ew. Bad mental image... :eek:

[wws944]

BTW the gov insisted that boxes approved for the rebate output only at 480p. No component output.

The boxes were only allowed to support 480i (standard def) output to be coupon eligible. A 480p output is considered HD and would need component and/or HDMI outputs. There were a bunch of other restrictions too. Basically it was supposed to be 'enough' to allow an older standard def TV to work. Though they did allow S-video - which is still 480i.

Interestingly, there is still one NTSC signal in our area. I think they get away with it because it is 'low power'.

But back to Reattas, I have a question: Are the hoses in our A/C systems considered 'barrier' hoses? (All years '88-91?)

[ptt]

One of the reasons AC shops don't like knock-off refrigerants is that they poison thier recovery machines and collection tanks. You don't mix refrigerants.

Unlike alot of former auto AC customers back when I first started experimenting with AC gas blend alternatives I always labeld what was in which of my cars systems. If the car was passed on to another owner the AC system left my hands with at least a warning of what was in the system. Like the "Fix-A-Flat" concoction people put in their slow leaking tires...some cans of that stuff came with a little yellow sticker/decal you could afix to your wheel and warn the tire service man changing the tire of the stuff sloshing around inside of it. As far as shopo recovery equiptment I have alays been sceptical about its use or potential abuse as far as the customers concern.

[Guest CL_Reatta]

I take issue with the comment on 'change' of the tv standards comparing it with the Freon changes.

The change to digital tv and 1080 lines was way overdue, and a wonderful improvement. To bad content didn't improve.

How about Microsoft coming out with a new operating system every two years.

As for the Freon changes, I'm convinced the chemical companies are behind this holding of prices inflated.

I was using the example of you can no longer just throw a pair of rabbit ears on a tv, but instead you need to go spend $50 on a box.

[checker]

As Pontiac1953 stated, there are no facts around R-12 depleting the ozone, only theory. I'm all for saving the environment but give me facts, not speculation. Now R-134A? Time to pump propane into the AC system. That's still an ozone safe gas. (JOKE). Don't try this at home.

[Guest rsd9699]

What - the unsilent minority have given in to the silent majority- got to love the great disease that is destroying America - the lose of a backbone!

Ron

[Guest Richard D]

Since this new refrigerant is a blend and if you have a small leak depending on where the leak is you will throw off the proper ratio of the flamable blend. That means you must empty the system of this new FLAMABLE blend evacuate and refill the system from scratch.

What, me pissed...YES!!!

[Guest rsd9699]

I bought $200 worth of 134 - if I had more money I would have bought more - Thanks for robbing us corporate America.

Ron

[wws944]

I bought $200 worth of 134 - if I had more money I would have bought more - Thanks for robbing us corporate America.

It isn't corporate America dictating these changes. Dupont would be just as happy if we were all still using R-12. It is the whole 'green' movement and politicians who find it convenient/profitable to cater to them. I like clean air and water as much as the next person. But they have pushed regulations way past the point of Diminishing Returns, and into the realm of economic suicide.

Edited October 1, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[Guest rsd9699]

I can not think of anything that does not undergo "modernization" without some company trying to make a bundle off of you today.

I can remember a brand of shoes that indicated in the commercial that the Japanese could make it cheaper but not dumber - the people just got dumber - not the shoes.

Priced a quart of oil lately - box auto parts places ripping you off at $5.00 a qt. - while wally is a buck less and wally is making a huge profit off of it. 134 at some stores $8.00 a can - last year it was $5.00 - wally is getting $10.00 a can and wally gets the best deal from any supplier - box stores are $14.00 plus.

2 years ago most everything was 50% cheaper - 14 million out of work - rob from the poor and give to CEO so he can fly his corp. jet at the poor's expense.

Dupont is "green" because it makes them a ton of money. New freon is a blend - so a leak is bad news - can not recycle the stuff even if you suck it out of the system - it has lost its properties - so what are they going to do with the recovered freon - burn it - a real green solution.

Bend over America and enjoy.

Ron