Where Have All the Brass & Early Cars Gone ?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So here is a question for those who know more about brass cars, and it seems like this is a knowledgeable group. How accepted is a T speedster at HCCA events, etc. Just thumbed through the latest HMN this month and it seems a really well done speedster can be had for around 20 grand on the high side? Of course it seems the same money could possibly buy some more unique cars as well. For occasional use these cars really appeal to me; I once heard (no idea of this is true) that there are actually more Model Ts out there than Model As??

I think for those who know these cars as David pointed out early on here, there is a hierarchy and value level that seems constant even if the overall market fluctuates.

[oldcarfudd]

This is a personal, not an official, view. The HCCA is into touring, not judging. National HCCA tours get a lot of Model Ts that have come a long way from what Henry built. Starters, demountable rims, wire wheels, and Ruckstell axles were never on a pre-'16 Ford as it came from the factory. Neither were depot hacks or pickup beds. I once had a bright red '15 touring that would have been laughed off the field at Hershey, and I drove it on HCCA tours. A friend has an extensive collection of cars, including several brass ones. I've seen him on HCCA tours with a 1911 Packard, a Model 10 Buick, a Model F 2-cylinder Buick, all very authentic. I've also seen him in a Model T runabout that's clearly a "bitsa" - you know the kind, made of bitsa this and bitsa that. I think if you show up at a tour with a speedster that looks as though someone might have built it in the brass era, you'll be fine. If your speedster is clearly out of the late teens or twenties with a brass radiator stuck on it, you won't be popular, but I doubt you'll be kicked out of the tour.

Your post mentions a hierarchy. Obviously, most people consider a Mercer raceabout or a Pierce-Arrow toy tonneau a more desirable car than a Model T. But as far as your acceptance by other HCCA members is concerned, what you have in your garage or drive on a tour doesn't make a bit of difference. We have lots of members who have one car - a late brass-era Model T. One of them is an elected national director, and a good one.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[1937hd45]

I've never toured on a HCCA tour, but once was an active member of The Friends of Ancient Road Transportation Society, and model T Fords were always welcome. Everyone with a BIG BRASS car had a T as well and treated it just the same. Most T Speedsters are overpriced IMO, and lacking in period correct build features. If I had 20 large to spend I'd go for an original vehicle.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Bob if and when I get serious I will be in touch, I know you know these cars really well. I just really like the T speedster styling. Would love period parts on it. I know how to keep an A running pretty good I imagine a T is not that much different.

Why haven't you left for Hershey yet??? Will be sure to stop by.

[R W Burgess]

A front row picture from the Northern Neck Region's annual show. We had a lot of model A's this year. Hearing others here speak of paying the entrance fees for older cars, the thought just occurred to me, that maybe our club should give the early cars a free ride each year to keep them coming out. We would not give them trophies, a cost savings, plus we would not have to judge them.

I'll let you know what our region thinks of this after the next meeting.

Wayne

[Guest De Soto Frank]

"Why crank start something to put it in an enclosed trailer to tow it to a show when the tow car can be shown? "

I guess that's fine for the folks that like to spend a day looking at "used cars"...

I generally won't bother going to a show if there won't be [stock] pre-WW II cars there...

( Yes, this reflects my personal tastes in old cars.)

One of the reasons I make the trek down to Das Awkscht Fescht and brave the heat & humidity every August is because of the vast numbers of antique cars that are there: Brass, Nickel, Full Classics, Survivors... this scratches my "antique itch"...

I can also appreciate the bother presented by having to trailer a car to a show; but by the same token, how many "show cars" are actually driven from home to the show site ?

[jeff_a]

Silverghost,

I don't think the older cars are gone or not being driven so much, it's just that the numbers are against them. There have been so many Postwar cars built, brass cars are just outnumbered. In other words: important historically, unimportant statistically. Rare.

The really early cars (and their owners) created the entire idea of car shows, and cars being viewed as genuine antiques. Now newer cars have come along and are being appreciated, too. My Grandfather Brown found an '09 Buick Raceabout in a ditch back in the 30's with a tree growing up through the frame and people thought he was nuts to buy it, not to mention restore it. Eventually he found a club he could join full of like-minded people, and he became the 415th member of the Horseless Carriage Club of America. Grandpa's car is still out there somewhere and probably still being taken to car shows(he owned it until the 1990's)....but this Buick with the 4-digit serial number is kind of overshadowed by all the Pintos, Plymouths & Pontiacs, etc. built during the huge surge in car production after WWII.

Edited October 6, 2010 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Hi group; regarding Model T speedsters, I get the impression that as long as the majority of the mechanical parts are 1915 or older the car will be considered acceptable . Some local chapters and groups may have more stringent requirements. Accessory wire wheels or demountable rim wheels don't seem to get anyone too worked up. Later electric start blocks would probably be pushing it for general acceptance.

I would very much like to have my Brass car completed, but I am in my peak non hobby related expense years. Most of you are familiar, mortgage , dependant children ,etc. All in all a pretty lean period for something as expensive as a Brass Era restoration. I suspect many would be Brass Car enthusiasts are simpley priced out of participating. For the few who can afford them there is a great temptation to collect several, which keeps the price of the ones on the market high. I agree a pretty decent Model T speedster can be constructed for around $15,000.00 ; assuming most of the work is done by the owner, and one already has a reasonably well equipped workshop. But even this represents a pretty hefty outlay for many. I don't see any positive change soon; one thing for sure, the middle class disposable income has just about vanished.

[Dandy Dave]

A front row picture from the Northern Neck Region's annual show. We had a lot of model A's this year. Hearing others here speak of paying the entrance fees for older cars, the thought just occurred to me, that maybe our club should give the early cars a free ride each year to keep them coming out. We would not give them trophies, a cost savings, plus we would not have to judge them.

I'll let you know what our region thinks of this after the next meeting.

Wayne

Wayne, The first weekend in May show at the Rhinebeck fair grounds does let the early cars in for free. I think it is 1930 and back. And the cars are registered, and judged, and there is a pre 16 Class. I'm just loving it! You may want to consult someone there as to just how they do it. Dandy Dave!

[Guest De Soto Frank]

"The first weekend in May show at the Rhinebeck fair grounds does let the early cars in for free."

Perhaps this concept might need to be tweaked from region to region, but if registration fees are discouraging folks from bringing their old iron out, perhaps free entry is a good idea;

Folks with stock, Pre- 1930 (pre-WW II?) vehicles get in free ?

And how about a small admission charge to the general public - $3 each for adults, under 16 free ?

[Marty Roth]

The RM Auction at Hershey this year included a large number of Brass Era Cars.

As a volunteer driver, benefitting the the AACA Museum, I was priviledged to drive a Barrel-Nose Franklin, a 1908 Buick Roadster, and later a 1931 Lincoln Dual-Windshield Phaeton on thursday night. I wish that my schedule had allowed me to be available again for the Friday Night portion of the Auction.

The 1913 Interstate Touring is magnificent, and I've known the owner for many years.

[ex98thdrill]

I think is is safe to say that Brass Car owners of 25 years ago are now showing the cars they bought new to tow them to the meets. Why crank start something to put it in an enclosed trailer to tow it to a show when the tow car can be shown?

Especially if you're 25 years older and cranking a car isn't as easy as it was 25 years ago.

[Dandy Dave]

Especially if you're 25 years older and cranking a car isn't as easy as it was 25 years ago.

That is the beauty of a 1915 Buick, Factory Delco Starter. Dandy Dave!

[oldcarfudd]

My son, one of his friends, and I drove 28 miles from Lititz to the Hershey show field on a perfect fall Saturday morning. Official sunrise was 7:12, and that's when our wheels started rolling. It took just over an hour. The cars were a 1912 Ford commercial roadster, a 1909 E-M-F touring, and a 1906 2-cylinder Buick touring. We basically puttered up back roads at about 30-35 mph, sometimes getting down to 17 or so on a long hill. Hog heaven!

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I saw a stunning '10 Hup in the Chocolate field, and then found out the car was there to showcase the restoration work of a CT shop and the fellow who owns it is one town over from me back home! I definately want to chat with him as this is a car I would consider and I am finding they are pretty popular.

Anyone see the 1911 Midland in Chocolate North, there all week; an incredible car.