The first automobile, 1877?

[rhb1999]

Hello, I just got to remembering, some months back, while waiting at the local library I picked a book off a shelf, something about the history of the automobile. I'm sorry, I don't remember the title or the author. In the beginning it said something about a 4 wheeled gasoline? vehicle built in 1877, by a man named Nelson??? And that the engine was in front, front wheel drive but it had no transmission and to make it go in reverse one would have to keep turning the steering wheel until the front of the axle was facing the rear. (The engine was on top of the axle.) The book had pictures. The book went on to say the inventor tryed to market this vehicle, but because it lacked a transmission, there where no takers? I've tryed looking for this book again and again on the shelves with no success.

[Seldenguy]

RHB-- Sounds like you had looked at a book about George B.Selden,s 1877 Road wagon. Which he held a patent on encompassing the entire United states auto industry until 1911. This has had more printed coverage than any other item of automotive history in the last hundred years. ---Bob

[Jim Bollman]

The Selden with 1877 on the side is a commonly found photo. The car was actually built much later as a proof that the patent could be built. One of the two cars built in the paent fight is in the Ford Museum, the other in a museum in New England somewhere.

[Guest South_paw]

Here's the patent

It goes on for a few more pages,

Here's the link

ROAD-ENGINE - Google Patent Search

[Guest cben09]

Hi,,,I believe there was only one 1877 STYLE car built,,BY MAXIM and crew at Popes shops in Hartford,Ct,,,in 1908,,,There is a pic of it running w/a man running beside it watching the underside gear,,,Its a long story,,,,Ford was refused to get license to build cars under patent,,,Henry was miffed,,,so later when Selden wanted money,,,Ford counterd by suing the ALAM,,,headed by Selden and Pope,1903--1911,,,There were 2 parts to the settlement,,I dont want to spoil the punch line,,,,AFTER it was all over,,,there was a GRANDE DINNER,,,honoring the leaders of this new industery,,,many gave address,,and lectures,,,,Ford,, the grand gentleman,,held his place to be rememberd,,,recieved an ovation,,,BUT REFUSED TO SPEAK,,,Anything he had to say would be sour grapes,,,He won fairly in court,,,and was a gentleman in his win,,, Some of these personal details have been lost,,,so much fun to hear the human side,,,, So,,,,IF,,,the Selden is in the Henry Ford Museum,,,, [trophy time] [ haha],,,Why do you think Henry made the Model A radiator look like a,,,,,Lincoln,,,, Family fude,,,,,Cheers,,Ben //ps/ If there is a Selden in New England,,it could be a later 1908,,and possibly mislabled,,,another story,,cb

[Guest cben09]

Slden also sued Panhard- Levassor,,for infringement as they were selling into his terretory,,Arthur Krebs came here to defend his company,, Does anyone know if Krebbs came here for the Vanderbilt Cup races also??? Cheers,,Ben

[Seldenguy]

There were two Seldens built in the configuation that Jim Bollman showed in the above photo. One is in Hartford Connecticut and the other is in the Ford museum in Detroit Michigan. In the same configuration there is a model that George Selden submitted to the patent office in Washington,DC when the patent was filed. The model is made of brass,and is now in the Smithsonian. As I said earlier there are volumes written on Selden, some fact and some mythical depending on the writers goal. I had a very lenghty conversation many years ago with the man whom restored the Hartford auto. The original front tires were hanging on his shop wall. Seldens son Henry lived about 15 miles north of my home and I had a very interesting conversation with him many years ago about the patent and his personal conversations with Henry Ford during the extended trial.There are photos that show Henry and his brother George Jr. with their father and the car involved in the patent suit. ---Bob

Edited December 22, 2009 by Seldenguy (see edit history)

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Way back in Junior High School, I found a book on the history of the automobile, or something to that effect, that delved back into the history of the internal combustion engine.

One of the early internal combustion engines cited, powered a rude vehicle constructed in 1805 by a Swiss inventor named Isaac de Rivaz (?). There was a line-drawing of the vehicle in the book; I do not remember it having any steering aparatus.

George Selden is probably the most celebrated of the "neglected inventors of the automobile"; certainly the patent suit generated much PR.

One of the interesting aspects of the Selden case was that aside from the patent model, he did not construct a functioning motor wagon until the Patent suits were under way, some 20 years after filing his patent application.

[Richard Lichtfel]

The main reason General Motors was formed was to fight the Seldon Patent but then Ford did it for them.

[Larry Schramm]

I would argue that the main reason that GM was put together by Billy Durant was that he recognized the economies of scale and had that vision while the other under capitalized manufacturers were disappearing. If you look at Durants' activities, he raised capital and bought companies, raised capital, purchased companies,...to his end when the Duponts took over control in about 1920 with Alfred P. Sloan running the show. That formula played out over time with only a very few car companies left after WWII. That understanding was part of the DNA of GM until the bean counters got control of GM starting with Roger Smith in 1980 and he started selling off the assets in an attempt to appease the bankers of wall street on quarterly earnings targets regardless of what was good for the long term viability of the business.

[rhb1999]

You gentlemen tagged the right car. Great stuff! I'm remembering other things from that book, but that's another thread...

[RPrice]

Isn't it ironic that the Henry Ford would have, in its collection, a Selden auto? Life is strange.

Rog

[keiser31]

Isn't it ironic that the Henry Ford would have, in its collection, a Selden auto? Life is strange.

Rog

Old Henry is probably rolling over in his grave.....

[Seldenguy]

I don't think it is bothering him to much, he is the person whom bought it and placed it in his museum.Could it have been a "trophy" to his shrewdness? Or more likely a perpetuation of big over small.After all he was quoted as saying "History is bunk"! Why he bought it can be debated for many years! ---Bob

[padgett]

First define "automobile". Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Steve Moskowitz]

Thanks for reminding me of my ill fated investment in a Zimmer franchise. My first units were nightmares but they were fair in the end when I dropped the franchise

[nsbrassnut]

With apologies to others. Durant starting with Buick was a licensed member of ALAM and paid the Selden royalties from the very start. As did Cadillac and Oldsmobile, the three core cornerstones of GM.

Durant was more interested in building another syndicate of manufacturer's and suppliers of automobiles and parts with the formation of GM just like he worked on before with the Durant-Dort carriage companies.

Ford applied and was turned down for a license, in part after two previous company failures his company was not considered viable enough by ALAM for a license. And you know just what Henry though about being told he couldn't do something his way.

Drive safe.