T-3 headlamps vs CRAPPY batteries

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I find threads like this hilarious to say the least. Having the love for cars since before old enough to get a driver's license in January of 1956 I find it absolutely nuts for any grown man to go crazy in hoping to get a cheap plastic trophy mounted on a chunk of Travertine marble, with a gold anodized plate. I find it even more amusing when the pursuit is not done as a fruit of one's own labor but having paid someone to allegedly restore a vehicle to it's "original" configuration. Thirty or more years later, that just ain't happening for more than a variety of reasons. I would suspect than no less than 90% of the cars submitted for any form of judging, regardless of make, by any car club can be said way short of being as "original" on just a cursory visual inspection without raising the hood or running a mirror under the car. Which is exactly why I personally have no interest in submitting any of the eight vintage vehicles I own to any form of judging, though they may well be more "original" than any of the rest of the field.

The best and only judging that matters is found when one pulls into a gas station or drops by a cruise-in where the general public is admiring a vintage car for what they are. All the stinking Micky Mouse trophies in the world sitting on a shelf do not equal a few minutes or an hour of the public admiring what you have, even though it may not be in exactly as pristine or "correct" condition in comparison to the day it rolled from the assembly line.

I think there are a whole bunch of folks that need to seriously think about the real enjoyment of owning driving a rolling, breathing piece of history comes from sharing it with others who could care less if the car is exactly as it came from the assembly line, because they don't know what was verses what is and probably don't care. Which means they are honest and not standing around BSing one another, as is the common practice among participants at regional and national car club meets.

[Bhigdog]

Yeah well. There's those that can. And there's those that can't.

If you think an actual physical trophy is the object of having your car judged you obviously just don't get it.

There are many reasons for enjoying the "hobby". Some like actually working on the restoration themselves. Some don't have the time or talent so they trade what they do have, money, to accuire what they love. Some don't care what their dream car looks like they just like to drive it. Some don't care about driving it so much as keeping it pristine.

And some like to hang around gas stations and drive-ins pretending they have the real deal.

Cheers.........Bob

[Shop Rat]

If everyone liked the exact same thing there wouldn't be room for everyone at any venue.

Not sure why you felt the need to come on here and disrespect anyone for not doing it "your way". "Your way" is right for you. That should be enough.

[John348]

It is a shame Jim, you just don't get it. I know I did not spend way more than the car was worth and 13 years of my life doing a documented restoration, (DONE BY MYSELF) for a trophey! I have the same enjoyment as you attending National Meets for three clubs, and I also enjoy people showing the same admiration of my car you get at cruise nights.

If you enjoy sitting in burger joints listening to do-wop music good for you, enjoy it! You won't see me there with any of my cars, even the drivers. Some live in the box and some are on the third set of bias ply's.

If you don't enjoy the competition aspect then don't do it, I do not understand your need to be so angry. If you don't enjoy the judging aspect of our hobby then why did you read through this thread and bother to comment? Seems like you are just looking for a fight, no need for it should be a hobby that you enjoy

Getting back to the topic, I still do not think the headlight and battery decision were good ones, and I even have the correct T-3's and repro battery in my driver after all it is restoration.

[msmazcol]

I agree the cheap plated, fake marble trophies are not worth getting excited about. This is why we like the nice classy oval plaques that look SO nice when mounted on our vehicles.

My Father started doing restoration work in 1963 as a hobby. It is now a family tradition. We are proud of the restoration work that has come out of our shop.

I do agree the only person that needs to be happy with the vehicle is the owner, but it is great to hold your own amongst your competitors.

My view only.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Biscayne John</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a shame Jim, you just don't get it. I know I did not spend way more than the car was worth and 13 years of my life doing a documented restoration, (DONE BY MYSELF) for a trophey! I have the same enjoyment as you attending National Meets for three clubs, and I also enjoy people showing the same admiration of my car you get at cruise nights.

If you enjoy sitting in burger joints listening to do-wop music good for you, enjoy it! You won't see me there with any of my cars, even the drivers. Some live in the box and some are on the third set of bias ply's.

If you don't enjoy the competition aspect then don't do it, I do not understand your need to be so angry. If you don't enjoy the judging aspect of our hobby then why did you read through this thread and bother to comment? Seems like you are just looking for a fight, no need for it should be a hobby that you enjoy

Getting back to the topic, I still do not think the headlight and battery decision were good ones, and I even have the correct T-3's and repro battery in my driver after all it is restoration. </div></div>

Yes John I do get it. I've been restoring my own vehicles for perhaps more years than some posting here have been breathing. The only aspect of restoration I have yet to tackle is upholstery and I just bought a proper sewing machine to do that for the next one. As one reads through the threads having anything to do with judging it becomes more than apparent cars are being judged by people who may or may not really know the rules, cannot agree upon the rules, or are only marginally qualified to be judging anything.

It becomes quite apparent when one revisits an earlier thread on T-3 headlights http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/580823/Re_The_new_rule_for_headlights . On page two within that thread the topic drifted to tires in a post by Stan Kulikowski where he states correct tires for his car are not available. Not true! http://www.performanceplustire.com/produ...0-15#prodAnchor .

I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone but for the life of me I do not see any benefit to anyone to attempt to deal with the inconsistencies in rules and perhaps even lack of correct information for those judging regarding given vehicles. I suspect one could have a car 100% correct and some unlearned judge might inappropriately deduct points out of just flat lack of knowledge and that is simply not right.

As you know from your comment about your car, obtaining all the information on a given car can result in literally thousands of pages of manuals and data, and perhaps even production drawings if one should be so lucky. There is no possible way for judges at an event to have all the necessary knowledge about every vehicle they might be judging. A circumstance which is entirely wrong! Even with years of restoring across several brands and having nothing short of a mountain of shop manuals, master parts books, factory assembly reference manuals, and technical service bulletins I still find myself having to crack the books because no one, including me, can commit that much information to memory.

There hasn't been a car make or model produced since WWII that didn't have one or more significant engineering change during a given production year, some not well documented if at all, and others with codes on build sheets or Patent Plates that simply cannot be found in any reference material years after the fact. There are few cars that are actually restored to being exactly the way they rolled off the line in spite of best efforts. Most because cosmetic materials are not 100% correct, whether it be paint type, upholstery materials, trim plating, or carpet. Few ground up restorations have 100% correctly color coded wiring or vacuum lines. Do I need to go on?

My whole point being it is folly to believe any vintage vehicle can be restored to 100% accuracy in most cases and in some cases one couldn't throw enough money into one to get it that way. Attempting to judge restoration accuracy to a finite point is somewhat like trying to push a blob of Jello with a rubber band given all the possible production variables.

So Yeah, I get it. I just don't get chasing goals where there are few constants from year to year. So I don't. And I do still enjoy a good malt with some D00-Wop music..

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim_Edwards</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I suspect one could have a car 100% correct and some unlearned judge might inappropriately deduct points out of just flat lack of knowledge and that is simply not right. </div></div>

One of the very first rules we learn is that if the team as a whole cannot verify a deduction and there is no documentation to prove the item right or wrong, we DO NOT deduct. Period.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't get chasing goals where there are few constants from year to year. So I don't. </div></div>

That is okay that you don't see the point. You don't have to to enjoy your vehicles. But please don't try to tell others what they should be doing with their vehicles. No one here is trying to say that you are wrong for what you want to do with your vehicles and your time and money.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And I do still enjoy a good malt with some D00-Wop music.. </div></div>

Then by all means do that. Don't put stress in your life trying to control others. And don't stress others by trying to push your will on them.

[John348]

Jim,

I understand your point much better now, and I have friends who share similar feelings as you, and I don't agree with them either. I do love malts, but hate doo-wop music so as we can see by our taste in music; different strokes for different folks. I have my own opinions about cruise nights and the participants and that is why I do not participate in those type of venues, same for local shows, neither is my idea of fun.

[Bhigdog]

Ah, I beleive my last post has been coup-de-graced.... Let me rephrase.

Say Jim. I missed the part in your recent rants where you were led to think that any one in our organization would be interested in what you think of OUR club. Would you also please be kind enough to further enlighten us on the intracasies of judging, originality, material correctness, etc as we are quite new to this old car stuff and obviously lack your unique and learned knowledge.

Thanks also for letting us in on the secret that there are books and stuff, some with pictures, that show how an old car should look. We NEVER would have guessed.

Well, I'd like to pick to pick your brain a bit further but I'm off to the Kwicky-Mart to wow the locals with my new sewing machine.......Bob

[msmazcol]

Jim, I love the local shows and venues also. The last one I attended was in support of the local high school auto shop. The best part of the day was when I won the 50/50 pot.

Only show that turned a profit in a long time.

LOL.

[Shop Rat]

The problem that Bill and I have seen at local venues, as well as national shows, is the utter lack of manners that too many people have when it comes to other people's property.

First I want to say that I love kids. I wouldn't baby-sit for free for two friends, and they each have two kids, or be paid to baby-sit an additonal three kids if I didn't. That said I can't believe how some parents, or whomever the kids are with, let kids behave around other people's old vehicles. Even the adults don't seem to understand to keep their distance and their hands off unless they ask. Owners should not have to ask people to keep their hands off. We shouldn't have to ask their kids to get off of running boards or not run their toy car down the side of our car.

And it isn't just kids. It is also how some of the owners themselves behave. We have been at national shows, including Hershey, and have seen/heard owners squealing tires as they leave the showgrounds. And don't get me started about the people that let their dogs go right up to vehicles. I have a dog as you can see by my AVATAR. She stays at home or in a kennel.

That kind of behavior is not conducive to many folks to want to bring their vehicles out where there are crowds. They aren't snobs. They just don't want to put themselves or their vehicles in that postion.

[ex98thdrill]

Jim,

I know that I'm a little late in getting in on this thread, but I was wondering what prompted this????

When it pertains to local shows, I couldn't agree with you more. I've seen many people win awards with cars because the owner was a friend of the person who gave out the cheap plastic trophies. Our region has a national award class where we give out gift baskets. The neighboring Drumlins Region gives out plaques that have a dash plaque mounted on them with an engraved plate that says 'national winner.'

Our judging system is a good system, it isn't perfect, but it works well, and has worked well for a long time. We don't make deductions for lack of overspray, too much overspray, or cotter pins bent in the wrong direction. Are you correct in some of your statements?? YES!!! But I would encourage you to get involved in our judging program. If you get involved and don't like what you see, voice your opinion, get involved, get yourself in a leadership role, and try to make changes. If you learn the system and don't like it, you still have the option of walking away.

As you've previously mentioned, nothing is 100% authentic. If everything were judged for 100% authenticity, you could stand a chance at making a lot of enemies with the car owners and we would lose members.

Understand that although we are a club, we are still a business, and in order to stay in business, there are some things that at times need to be overlooked.

I do feel that a lot of the things that you're talking about, you have confused with the local show circuit and not the national meets. Our trophies are not junk, and if you have ever won one, you'd know that. To me the biggest award is still the winner's badge on the front of a vehicle. Once you've won a Senior Award, you start collecting a wooden plaque that can store 25 pewter chips (a little larger than a postage stamp) on it, when you've done 25 meets and the board gets filled up, they'll give you another board. In essence, unless you run a Grand National, you'll have up to three trophies for your first 27 meets. We don't hand out full size trophies every time you win.

You have every right to not like our shows, and judging procedures, but also bear in mind you still have the option of bring your car out, placing it in the Driver's Participation Course, or going Do Not Judge. If those options are still not to your liking, then maybe you should try a tour instead. There are a lot of members who I know in person who never bring their cars to a meet, but do run a lot of tours.

[GrayCav56]

Wow, this thread got shifted a bit, didn't it?

I think we all realize that with thousands upon thousands of members, we will have multiple issues where we disagree. Most times these disagreements are handled civilly. That is what is cool about this hobby.

Some like cruise nights, some don't. Some lightly modify their cars, some react in horror when they see that. A number of folks are mechanically inclined, or can paint, or can sew interiors or have other such restoration skills. Others due to work constraints, or space issues or physical limitations just have to let others handle those chores for them.

I think we all strive, at least in AACA (as well as some other clubs that I belong to) to return and maintain the vehicle as close to the day it rolled off the showroom floor as possible. As we gain more insight on what those conditions were, and as the repro market steps up to fill gaps, then we get closer to that ideal. The Judging standards change as these voids are filled.

Getting back to batteries and headlights, though, I also went through several of the repro batteries before I switched to one of those described above, which is pretty much an Optima in an exact repro case. You put a few drops of water under the caps and there is NO WAY to tell this isn't a real deal.

And I'm glad an earlier poster mentioned the deduction for having the DOT on the T-3s. Now I know NOT to pick up the repros.....back to the swap meets I guess. I need 3 for the Vette and 3 for the GTO!

[Guest quadfins]

Folks, could we change the subject line of this thread? I keep tapping in expecting to find useful information about headlights, only to discover that it has been completely hijacked into a discussion about dogs at shows. Can you please start a new topic or change the title of this one?

Jim

[Shop Rat]

Maybe Peter G., or one of the moderators, can move the dogs at shows posts over to the thread I started on the General Forum.

[R W Burgess]

It's been moved, or at least, some of it has!

RWB

[Shop Rat]

You're a good man Charlie Brown!!!

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Your'e</span></span> a good man Charlie Brown!!! </div></div>

You been taking spelling lessons from Windjamer again, Susan?

Sorry Jamer, but I know you can take the kidding!

Wayne

[Shop Rat]

For some reason the forum acts like it is "sticky" when I type. On top of that, I forgot to check it.

[Bhigdog]

How about T-3 headlites vs crappy dogs?

[Guest quadfins]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about T-3 headlites vs crappy dogs?</div></div>

I Don't brake for animals, so I suppose they could become one and the same.

Jim

[msmazcol]

I like dogs, especially when they pee and poop in someone else's yard.

Cats, now that is a whole different issue.

[Guest Paul S. Johnson]

I think both sould be required. The headlights are easy to purchase as well as the old/OE batteries. I just bought a new OE battery from Classic Batteries in Ohio and it is a dry cell battery like an Optima inside. They have them all. I needed to get a new battery to win Senior in Lebanon. These new OE batteries will not leak or cause problems seeing they are dry cells. It really makes your car look a lot better as well. If you cannot find the batteries I'm referencing let me know. I will get you the information. I also got a deal on new OE cables too.:cool:

I will be addressing the 1967 Emissions on score card. I talked to Senior Judge in Lebanon to assure he knew my 1966 #'s matching documented Malibu California car was accepted because he had a Ford Mustang before and it was a 1966 too, and his had emissions :confused:. I do think it may take time to request correcting the score card. Thats my next immediate challange before next year's are printed. Joe had just recovered from bad health in June so I didnt want to bother him at the Nationals. Hope you will accept my comments without offending you. RARE 66/ Paul

[ted sweet]

i purchased the battery u mentioned, it lasted less than 18 months.

[junkyardjeff]

Are the repro T3 made as halogens or like original.

[ted sweet]

like original.

[junkyardjeff]

I am too used to halogens to go back to the regular bulbs,there is a big difference.

[Shop Rat]

I am too used to halogens to go back to the regular bulbs,there is a big difference.

Since you drive modified vehicles it doesn't matter which you use. But for AACA judging, Halogen headlamps in vehicles that did not come from the factory with them is a mandatory 10 point deduction. It doesn't matter if you have one or up to four, the deduction is the same.

[junkyardjeff]

Even if I had a all original car (12 volt of course) it would have halogens in it when it was driven,would have to keep the originals in the trunk for showing. I came home late in the evening from a show in my 53 olds in the rain with non halogens and it was terrible and could not see very well so the next day it had halogens. It would be nice if the reproduction parts had the modern internals for those of us who want the original look but with the better technology,my 37 chevy has the original bulb/reflector head lights but even with 12 volts leave much to be desired so sometimes in the future I will be installing the late model halogen bulbs so I can see better.

[junkyardjeff]

I do like the looks of the original looking batteries but have heard they dont last very long and need to be on a battery tender when not in use,I have seen those tops that can be put over modern batteries but that just does not cut it sometimes.

[Shop Rat]

Even if I had a all original car (12 volt of course) it would have halogens in it when it was driven,would have to keep the originals in the trunk for showing. I came home late in the evening from a show in my 53 olds in the rain with non halogens and it was terrible and could not see very well so the next day it had halogens. It would be nice if the reproduction parts had the modern internals for those of us who want the original look but with the better technology,my 37 chevy has the original bulb/reflector head lights but even with 12 volts leave much to be desired so sometimes in the future I will be installing the late model halogen bulbs so I can see better.

I understand where you are coming from on this. For folks that may drive after dark in antique vehicles the Halogens do offer better lighting. But for showing they don't fullfill the requirement of "as they could have come from the factory" if they look right but really are not. But folks can do what you do, put Halogens in for driving and correct ones in for showing.

[junkyardjeff]

It would be nice if the reproduction headlights were made with the halogen internals and still looked like the originals and same with the batteries,I can get about 10 years out of a modern battery but have been hearing stories about the reproduction original looking batteries do not last very long so.

[Shop Rat]

It would be nice if the reproduction headlights were made with the halogen internals and still looked like the originals.....

It comes down to the fact that they would be incorrect Halogen headlights and the ten point deduction would still apply for AACA judging.

[junkyardjeff]

Even if they had T-3 on the them like the original a judge would notice a little difference on the inside of the bulb,I am glad I dont show all originals as you guys can do it and I want no part in the hassle of keeping one 100 percent original as I want to be able to see when I drive at night so I will hang out in the drivers class.

[Shop Rat]

Yes, it is very possible that judges would see the difference and trust me ten points is a lot to lose as a starting point on the judging in regular classes.

With your vehicles DPC is the place to start. There are modifications that are allowed there. But not all modifications are allowed so there will be vehicles that will not qualify for even the DPC class. It is a certification class rather than a judged class. A friend of ours is the one that came up with the idea for the class.

My husband has been on the DPC team several times now and likes the class, he was on it at Hershey. He has 89 judging credits so he is not new at this.

I get the feeling that your vehicles aren't modified/street rodded enough to compete at those shows nor are they original enough to compete that way. You are between a rock and a hard place at most shows. Open shows or DPC are your best bet.

[ted sweet]

whats the point of a reproduction t-3 that isnt correct in appearance?

[junkyardjeff]

You would think a reproduction could be made to look identical but have modern guts and yes my vehicles are best shown at open shows,if I had a GM product a T-3 would be appropriate for I would like to have halogens with T-3 on them as I do like my vehicles to look mostly original but with improvements.

[Shop Rat]

You would think a reproduction could be made to look identical but have modern guts and yes my vehicles are best shown at open shows,if I had a GM product a T-3 would be appropriate for I would like to have halogens with T-3 on them as I do like my vehicles to look mostly original but with improvements.

Someone may make those. But they would be incorrect. Period. There are rules for AACA show vehicles. We are all expected to abide by those rules. If someone tries to do it their way, as you want to and it is your right to, they will have points deducted. It is a lot of money to spend to not stand a chance at an award.

There was a guy at Hershey with a very nice car in the class I was Team Captain for. He had Halogens, ten points off. He had five radial tires, 3 points off each for a total of 15 points. Right off the bat that takes him out of the running for a first place with cars already scoring above him. He got a third. After we judged the car I explained to him that to get a First Junior he would have to get rid of the Halogens and radial tires. He thanked me for letting him know. We do that with major deductions to help the owners. Especially the ones at their first AACA show going for a First Junior with the hopes of getting Seniors and Preservations at some point. Many just don't know.

And for the record T-3's, or any other brand that came on a vehicle, are not required. Only that they be era correct and all match as to brand within that era. If it says General Electric they should all say that and not have some as General Electric and some as GE. It is a one point deduction for each non-matching headlight.

Go to an AACA show and walk around and get a feel for what we are about. Enjoy the vehicles and talk to the owners.

[junkyardjeff]

I dont think there is a AACA show or any all original type shows near me,I have been to a couple OCA nationals that were close since I was in the OCA when I had a 53 88. My 53 was not show quality so I just spectated and I seen plenty all originals there but on mine I cant leave anything alone and need to do what I think are improvements,halogens,radials dual resivour master cylinders and a good sound sytem which in your world are big no nos but are manditory in my world.

[Shop Rat]

You should enjoy your vehicles your way. They belong to you and it is your money and time spent on them.

But they won't fit into the AACA way of doing things. We are all about preserving and enjoying vehicles the way they were designed and built to be.

We can help you with working with the original equipment that came on your vehicles. But we aren't here to help you modify them. There probably are some folks that would help with that by PM or private e-mail. But it is a firm no no to do it on the forums. Those are the rules.