Dealer installed/applied nameplates. Points off or ignore?

[Shop Rat]

With the newer cars coming onto the judging field comes a question.

It is now, and has been for several years, a common practice for dealerships to put their dealership name/logo on the cars that they sell. We are supposed to judge the cars "as they came from the factory". Factory authorized additions are accepted.

So, is that nameplate/logo considered authorized or not?

Back before the days of vinyl decals which can be removed with little or no damage, the trunks were drilled to put the dealership name on the cars.

What do you think? Points off or ignore that it is there rather than ask someone to risk damage to their vehicle to remove it?

[Restorer32]

I would take a 1 point deduction. The owner likely removed the logo to repaint the car in any case. There were other dealer (or previous owner)installed options available that were not factory authorized that would cause equal damage if removed. We deduct for those. I do not see these logos as any different.

[Guest windjamer]

Susan, your an instagator, no, your a instigator an agatator and a rebel.My first thought was to jump right on 32 and tell him he better not take a point, we judge these cars as recieved from the dealer.I opened my trusty oo7 manual to get the exact words and HOLD ON!!!!!! 32 is right. It do say (restored to the same state as when THE DEALER rec. the vehicle FROM THE FACTORY!!!! Now what, lots and lots and evan more a dese puppys got dealer addon a/c and dealer addon power steering and the list go on and on. With toung in cheak I say what Tonto do now kema sabe??

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Susan, your an instagator, no, your a instigator an agatator and a rebel.</div></div>

Who me?!?!? Not really. I asked this in all seriousness.

With toung in cheak I say what Tonto do now kema sabe?? </div></div>

Well, I got out my trusty '07 rule book and found this under <span style="font-weight: bold">BADGE DISPLAY</span>:

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Non-authentic license plate frames and advertising badges are not acceptable, regardless of the number or manner in which they are displayed." </span></span>

I knew about the non-authentic license plate frames along with non-authentic plates being a one point deduction. But in the classes that I usually judge in they hadn't started the practice of dealerships "tagging" the cars yet.

I guess that clears it up for me. Those dealer nametags are a form of advertising.

[Guest windjamer]

Shop rat tech.you are right, but then it brings us back to the cars we have been looking at from the dealer that I think Hulon had something to do with. Now you have me confused(dos not take much) I would realy like to hear from the powers that be on this, if no one chimes in you can bet Ill ask at the next J/school. Dick

[MCHinson]

The technically correct answer is that there should be a deduction.

Personally, as long as it is in perfect condition, I would probably not take a deduction. My reason is that it is similar to dealer installed factory authorized accessories that are allowed without a deduction.

(I know that this is not the technically correct answer, but I think it is the common sense answer.)

[Restorer32]

I disagree. I would be very disappointed if I lost an award by 1 point to a car with a dealer installed logo for which a deduction was not taken per the Official Judging Manual. I don't think it should be at the discretion of a particular judge on a particular day. Think about this...under your scenario you could have 2 vehicles, both with dealer logos in the same class. On one car the logo is in perfect conditin and he receives no deduction. On the other the logo is ratty and you take a point. It is conceivable that the perfect car could win an award and the ratty would go home with no award with the only difference between the two being the condition of their "illegal" logos. Would this be fair? I don't think we should be judging the condition of non-authentic items in any case.

[Guest Tarheel]

I know that some kidding is going on, but if we are putting a fine point on the subject of "Non-authentic license plate frames and advertising badges are not acceptable, regardless of the number or manner in which they are displayed." , and judging "as the dealer received it from the factory", shouldn't the license plate bracket be empty with no license plate ? :>)

[MCHinson]

I base my personal thoughts on the basis that we are NOT supposed to Nitpick. Besides, I normally judge engines so it will probably not ever be an issue for me.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tarheel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...shouldn't the license plate bracket be empty with no license plate ? :>) </div></div>

I figure that this falls under the "common sense will be tolerated" heading of not making each and every owner risk damage to their vehicle to have them remove and replace an item that is required by law to be on any car on the road. And some states require that a car sitting on blocks in your yard have a current license plate or be removed from your property.

MCH has a good point about ignoring a nameplate unless it is in bad shape.

32 has a good point about people losing points on something that is not from the factory while someone else does not receive the point off and they have the same item, it's just in perfect shape.

I personally would hate to have remove a nameplate, patch the holes and repaint the area of the car where it was attached. Especially if it was the only area to be repainted. Now if you are doing a whole car no big deal. Just take the nameplate off and go from there.

windjamer, if you get the chance before someone else here does, please bring this up in a judging school and let us know what they say.

[Guest windjamer]

Yep, Im right instigator agaitator and rebel.shop rat See what you started?? All kidding aside, I think it falls under comon sence and Im most likely wrong but I sure think i heard judge as it was rec. from the dealer.Yes I know what the book says.With referance to the 2 cars in the same class with one perfect dealer name plate and one with a ratty name plate the owner that lost a point lost it not from the name plate but from the RATTY name plate. If you had 2 chevelles with chevelle on the trunk one shiny new chrome and one with a Ratty plate you would take a point because its ratty. I had a car in my class with a duel res. m/cyl/ (1966) GTO first year for duel m/cyl was 67 this to me is a leagle bi--h,I screemed so loud I think Hulon heard me in n.c. If I loose a point because I have a ratty dealer name plate I think I lost it because it was ratty,If im to lazy to clean it thats MY fault.Susan talked about a radio ant. in a early post. Mine was origanal and pitted, I cleaned it the best I could and went on ebay loking for a new one I lost a point in Binghamton, but found a nos ant. before Hershey. Guess what No deduction for my new ant. Im not sure but right now Im thinking about driving to MD> to judge early spring. You can be sure if I do this question will come up. Dick.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tarheel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know that some kidding is going on, but if we are putting a fine point on the subject of "Non-authentic license plate frames and advertising badges are not acceptable, regardless of the number or manner in which they are displayed." , and judging "as the dealer received it from the factory", shouldn't the license plate bracket be empty with no license plate ? :>) </div></div>

In some cases hubcaps should be in the trunk and not installed on the wheels, certain year Fords come to mind.

[imported_ktm858]

I dont feel that any points should be taken off because I have seen many orignal cars where the dealer nameplate was drilled and placed on with either screws or barrel clips to secure them to the trunk. I know that on some of the Cadillacs I had once you remove the plate with the screws there were two holes there. I would rather leave it there then fill in the holes and have to spot in 50 year old paint!

[Guest windjamer]

Ron, how about the paper thin plastic the fac. put over the carpet and gosh please dont forget the large white plastic placed on the hood of most.

[Restorer32]

If you had 50 year old paint on your show car, losing 1 point for a dealer logo would be the least of your problems. It's the owner's choice. If the logo means that much to him, he must be willing to lose the 1 point but should not complain because that point was taken. The manual is clear..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory". Logos were also installed by used car dealers. Would you also not deduct for these?

[Ron Green]

This subject ("as the dealer received it from the factory") has been a topic several times here and has had some very amusing responses throughout the years. I thought I would mention the one I remembered about the hubcaps. Actually this too fits many trucks that were shipped bare chassis, less beds, etc.

My 86 Dodge Van (still have) came from the factory with no seats including the drivers side. They bolted a metal seat in similar to a lawn tractor in. Try driving this home from the dealer!

[imported_ktm858]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you had 50 year old paint on your show car, losing 1 point for a dealer logo would be the least of your problems. It's the owner's choice. If the logo means that much to him, he must be willing to lose the 1 point but should not complain because that point was taken. The manual is clear..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory". Logos were also installed by used car dealers. Would you also not deduct for these? </div></div>

First of all for a restored car that is super. I could see if you are doing a restoration not putting it back.BUT I would not want to attempt to spot in an area that a dealer tag was removed on an orignal car that yes the paint was 50 YEARS OLD! I could also say that I have had and do have 50 year old paint on a show cars that I have and it has won a senior without a problem.

[Guest windjamer]

Shop rat started this,and even with all the good natured kiding its realy quiet interesting.I have to think that Fred young maby Randy or Hulan Mccraw at least one or two c j e instructors is following the discusion, come on dont make us wate till spring chime in now.

[Rick Lay]

Obviously we have some exceptions to "How could it have looked when it left the factory." If I were asked about these dealer decals/nameplates by an apprentice or in judging school, my response would be to look at these the same way we look at lettering on commercial vehicles. We allow letering on commercial vehicles as long as it is "consistent with the age of the vehicle" (page 19 of the 2007 manual). Like the lettering, however, the decals/nameplates would be subject to point deduction for condition.

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Well, I got out my trusty '07 rule book and found this under <span style="font-weight: bold">BADGE DISPLAY</span>:

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"Non-authentic license plate frames and advertising badges are not acceptable, regardless of the number or manner in which they are displayed." </span></span>

I knew about the non-authentic license plate frames along with non-authentic plates being a one point deduction. But in the classes that I usually judge in they hadn't started the practice of dealerships "tagging" the cars yet.

I guess that clears it up for me. Those dealer nametags are a form of advertising.

</div></div>

Just wondering how an AACA License Plate Frame would be treated when it comes to judging?

[Guest windjamer]

Charlie I know better, but ill bet a cold beer or hot coffee its NOT a deduction.

[Shop Rat]

Rick, Thank you for weighing in on this issue. May we quote you since this is not directly addressed in the manual?

I honestly thought, after looking under the heading BADGE DISPLAY that the dealership nameplates/logos fell under advertising (which they are in a sense because they want others to buy from them) that they should be removed or deducted for if they weren't removed.

I would like to add that it is more humane not to require owners to remove the ones that are attached to the vehicle by way of holes and screws.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: charlier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just wondering how an AACA License Plate Frame would be treated when it comes to judging? </div></div>

There would not be a deduction for an AACA License Plate frame as long as it is in good conditon.

Regarding other club badges/frames here is what the rule book says.

"Badges and license plate frames with club names other than AACA will NOT be suject to a deduction for authenticity, if they are apropriate to the vehicle and displayed in good taste. They will be judged for conditon.

Excessive display of club badges will result in a total deduction of not more than two points."

[Restorer32]

The most humane thing to do would be to just give out the awards first come first served to anyone who wants one, then everyone could go home happy.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The most humane thing to do would be to just give out the awards first come first served to anyone who wants one, then everyone could go home happy. </div></div>

No matter how you feel about it, Rick says do not deduct unless it is in bad shape.

[novaman]

Fortunely, I've only had exteriors once and that was at hershey this year for preservation and this wasn't an issue.

I would think that you deduct for that dealer badge as Rick said for condition, but I think also you would deduct for it if it said John Doe Chevrolet and it was on a Mercedes, or Jane Doe's Used Cars. You would not have found these on a brand new car

[Guest windjamer]

Good ans Nova. I think it all comes down to comon sence.

[ex98thdrill]

Susan, I don't believe they're acceptable, but as what's been said, as long as it's in good condition, or had a used car dealer nameplate, I'd hate to deduct for it. In Rochester NY Hallman Chevrolet and Judge's Ford were in business forever. If a Chevy had a Judge's nameplate, or a Ford had a Hallman's nameplate on it, then it would be wrong. In the case of Judge's, I don't believe that the car ever said Ford on it, I believe it just said "Judge's."

I know what the rulebook states, but personally I think the vintage dealer plates on the vehicle add character. Of course you wouldn't see a vinyl dealer tag and a plastic license plate frame on a Model 'A' so of course the dealer nameplate should be authentic for the time.

I know people who still have the original window stickers with their cars, and the window sticker has the dealer's name on it.

......Maybe the rule should be amended to allow dealer tags on the vehicle so long as the vehicle owner had a copy of the window sticker to prove that the vehicle was actually delivered to the dealer in question.

If the rule was changed so when an exterior judge is judging a vehicle, and they see a dealer tag on the vehicle, the Team Captain could ask for documentation to prove where the vehicle is delivered. Upon seeing the documentation, if the tag is in good condition and it matches the documentation, then you don't deduct for the dealer tag. ......JUST A THOUGHT.

[Terry Bond]

This was a big decision my wife Susan and I faced when we restored a car recently. The dealer emblem was in place on the rear deck. We managed to find a very nice one as a replacement - the dealership is now defunct but was quite famous in the area when it was in business. We felt it was part of the history of the car, so made the decision to leave it on. Don't care if we loose a point or not. If we don't win an award with the car it will because of a decisiion we made, not a mistake or a short-cut.

I feel the same about my GTO - when we do restore it, it'll proudly wear the Royal Bobcat emblems since it's a part of the history of the vehicle.

Im glad to see a lot of common sense showing in this discussion. For those who would deduct for things like that though, how would you handle one of the Nickey COPO Cameros in the muscle car classes? Nickey Chevrolet pulled the normal Camero emblems off the side of the car and substituted their dealer logo - "NIC(backwards K)EY" - I suppose you could justify taking two points on that - one because it isn't factory, and the other because it's spelled wrong??? Personally, I'd not take anything so long as the emblems were in good condition. As was said earlier, there is a "technical" answer, then a "common sense" approach. I'm glad to see the latter.

Interesting discussion.

Terry

[ex98thdrill]

Terry, on a serious note, <span style="font-weight: bold">a window sticker is factory documentation.</span> There is no way that you can get any more factory documentation on a vehicle than the window sticker that was on it when it was delivered. If the dealer's name is in the destination block on the window sticker, and the dealer's name is on the vehicle, the name looks authentic and in good condition, I can't see where the vehicle is incorrect despite what the rules say. I know the rules say that the vehicle must be judged as it were to look as though it was deliverered from the factory to the dealership as a new vehicle. When many of these cars were delivered to the dealership, the hubcaps were all in the trunk, and were dealer installed (like a dealer installed name).

I'd say that as long as the owner has the window sticker or a bill of sale from the dealer, that it would/should be authentic.

[Guest resq302]

Terry,

Wasn't the rule book "modified" to allow for vehicles as they left the dealership as opposed to how they left the factory? I know of certain Ford vehicles that were shipped with a dual quad carb and matching intake in the trunk but the engine had a single 4 bbl carb and intake on the engine. The reason was the factory did not want to take the time to get the carbs in sync and would let the dealer install it so it was their problem. Supposedly, the dealer would have to return the single 4 bbl carb and intake to receive a credit.

Now our el camino that we have had a dealer installed tonneau cover put on it which is backed by the dealers order invoice. Granted, we have proof that this item was ordered when they placed the order for the car, but what would happen if one did not have this documentation to go along with this?

[Shop Rat]

I don't believe that any modification has been made to allow for "as it left the dealership".

Was the tonneau cover a factory option, or was it something from an after-market company? If a factory option then the dealer order invoice will be enough for documentation. If it was an after-market item that the dealer obtained and put on then it will be deducted for. If you are not sure find a brochure from the factory that the dealerships gave out and check the options that were available and compare what is listed to what is on your vehicle.

Some dealers did/still do provide aftermarket items (extra window tint, etc.) but if they are not factory options then they are non-authentic and it does matter that the dealer installed them.

[Guest resq302]

I am almost certain that the tonneau cover was a factory optional kit that was installed by the dealer as the bows are made out of wood, not fiberglass like the newer versions are. As for factory literature as proof, the only thing we have found so far was the small carbon copy dealer salesmans order invoice that looked like it had the carbon paper copy. This paper clearly states tonneau cover on it with a price and other items hand written in by the salesman. To me, that would be considered original literature, same as an owners manual, warranty card, etc.

I know I have seen Chevy truck literature showing the camper caps that make the back of the truck flush with the roof line. However, I have not seen any other accessory literature for trucks. The el camino was a rare breed. It was a cross over from the Chevelle but marketed as a car/truck depending on your pleasure. I guess you could call it the first Sport Utiilty Vehicle? Regardless, the el camino shared all the options that the sister Chevelle vehicle had and then some that were specific to the el camino. Everyone seems to have saved info pertaining to Chevelles but when it came time for the el camino to me marketed, they chose to put it in with their full size trucks vs. the Chevelle line. However, the el camino is still considered a Hi-performace vehicle according to the AACA.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Rick and his team are working on a major edit of the manual for next year. However, the "same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory" is probably an antiquated statement that is ambiguous at best (my opinion). If that were taken at face value, having been a dealer for many years, cars would be dirty, have paper in them, mats and keys in the trunk, antenna not installed, etc. A little if not a lot of common sense needs to be used here and is used most of the time.

I will try and get a official ruling on this for you but I would be quite surprised if we would take a point off a car that had a dealer emblem installed that was orginal to the car. Condition would be the only key!

The manual does allow for any feature, option, or accessory shown in original dealer literature. That can be original catalogs, parts books,sales bulletins,etc. If it was available from the factory it should fly!

[ex98thdrill]

The funny thing about it that my dad had a cousin who used to own a Ford dealer, and I bought a brand new pickup from him back in 1991. That is the only vehicle that I ever bought where I kept the dealer name on it, otherwise I took it off and still do. My thoughts are if the dealer isn't going to pay me to advertise their name, then it isn't staying on my vehicle.

Now I enjoy seeing the older vehicles with the dealer names on the back of them. I don't have a single vehicle that has a dealer name on it, but I still don't mind seeing them.

.....For the older cars it adds character.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Moskowitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...I will try and get a official ruling on this for you...</div></div>

Thanks Steve for checking on this. It may seem minor, but when only one point can make the difference we should all be on the same page on any issue that could involve deductions and when to take them.

[novaman]

Steve the one thing that would calm some of the discussion would be "as from the factory, road ready" or some thing to that affect. That would clear up things for those who go on about the bumpers, hubcaps, etc. being wrapped in paper and in the trunk.

[Guest resq302]

Steve,

So the original dealer salesman order invoice should be sufficient then as it was something drawn up by the salesman? Items like this such as pre-delivery inspection sheets? All of these items are original literature. We even have the build sheet for our el camino.

I have been having problems with my charger with getting original literature due to the fact that Chrysler Historical lost a ton of literature in a fire which destroyed everything from 1968 to the mid 1970's. The letter for Chrysler Historical even stated that the build sheets were NEVER meant to be kept with the car and was only an aid in assembling the vehicle at the factory. By rights, I would be that ALL of our cars were not supposed to have these documentations. For my charger, the best I have been able to do with getting original proof is to take photos of NOS parts in their boxes (if they came in boxes) and pictures of survivor cars that have not been restored and are still owned by the original owner. I have also used the different web forums in the Q & A sections to find out what is correct vs. incorrect.

One thing to also think about regarding factory literature such as full line catalogs and vehicle specific catalogs. The one vehicle catalog I have for my charger has incorrect pictures in it from a 1968 car vs. the correct item that they changed to for 1969. If I were to show that to a judge, even though it is factory literature, that would make my car appear to be incorrect.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Hulon is having problems getting on to post so I am going to quote from his email:

"The Judges Guidelines (not Manual in 2008) is just that, a guideline for the judges to use along with "common sense" and discretion in performing his/her duties"

"We don't deduct for other antique car club decals or badges if displayed in a quality manner and are not excessive"

As far as documentation, the more the merrier but remember it is factory documentation that takes precedence. While dealer provided materials help support your case, the factory literature is critical.

[Restorer32]

But the question still remains. Do we or do we not deduct for dealer (or used car dealer) applied logos? I, for one, hate to see the value of an AACA award watered down because too much is left to the discretion of an individual judge. If in fact it is left to the discretion of the judge I will take the deduction, since "it was not received at the dealership that way". If, and I doubt that this would occur very often, I were presented with a car to judge that had its original, from the factory, paint, I might not take the deduction. In every other case I would assume that the owner had the opportunity to remove the logo and fill in the holes when the vehicle was repainted. Seems to me we need a definitive ruling on "Dealer Applied Advertising Logos". They are not car club badges. Period correct lettering is currently allowed but only on commercial vehicles. A few new rulings by the Vice President-Class Judging would clear things up a bit. I am still waiting for a ruling on "yellow cad" versus "silver cad" on early vehicles. I feel that too many things are slipping thru the cracks. It seems that early Volkswagens consistently win awards with totally non-authentic engine modifications, aftermarket sunroofs etc. I am hoping that the Team Captain Certification program may result in having judging teams where at least the Captain knows what he's looking at.