58L-Y8

The CCCA-Gilmore Museum has the remaining Derham company files in their archives, which are viewable on-line.

The reason I've posited this Chandler connection is although they acquired Chandler-Cleveland in anticipation of greater demand and need for production capacity as the record 1928 year was closing, they acquired tooling for cars which would unlikely have been discarded as they were current. Hupps largest eights were 268.9 ci, 3" X 4.75" compared to the Chandler Royal Eight 85, 340 ci, 3.375" X 4.75". The H & U 365 ci, 3.50" X 4.75" would have to have bore center spacing wider than what was possible in the 268.9 cylinder block. The other motivation in the late '20's, with the success of the Packard Six and Standard Eight, plus entry of the LaSalle, both in the $1,800-$2,900 entry-level luxury segment, multiple middle-priced carmakers entered the segment with cars such as the Chandler Royal Eight 85, Studebaker President, Graham-Paige 827 and 837, REO Royale, Peerless Master & Custom, Hudson Super Six L, Jordan Great Line Eight, etc, to get a piece of this emergent market. Of course, by the time some like the REO Royale and Hupmobile Model H and U arrived, the Great Depression was seriously taking hold of the economy, spoiling any chance for long-term success. It appears Hupmobile utilized the Chandler resources to enter that upmarket segment, just on the cusp of the downturn.

Hi Hupp36 Hupmobiles in general are just one of the makes of interest to me. I also love to discover obscure models of every make particularly from the independents. I ran onto the Model H and U about twenty years ago, even acquired the color sales folder for the Model U. I wrote to Karl Zahm back then about Full CCCA Classic status for it, which has since been granted. I had a brief phone discussion years ago with David Romani about the Model U, he told me four cars still are extant, none restored. The discovery of this brief video evidence of their existence at one time surprised me probably as much as it did you. As a Hupp man, can you verify whether the Models H and U were simply further developments of the Chandler Royal Eights since that company was acquired by Hupp in 1928? Steve (58L8134) elsewhere on various Packard forums.

Thanks for posting these photos, congratulations to all for championing a closed four door sedan of sterling design to the winner's circle. Although it matters little, I find the high-contrast of the light-colored upper structure detracts from the design, that a subtle difference in hue would present better. Obviously, Mr. Whittel would disagree.

Yes, AJ and Hupp36, that's the one! Its one of the few images of this rare model outside factory promotional material I've seen. The Production Figures Book of U.S. Cars by Jerry Heasley, 1977 edition, list calendar year production for the Model U as follows: 1929: 5; 1930: 393; 1931:170; 1932: 122; total 690. In addition to the seven passenger sedan and limousine, a five passenger coupe was added during the series. Bodies were supplied by Raulang, display a slanted windshield seen on no other Hupp series, not even the Series H with which the U shares a powertrain. These are among the most obscure of Full Classics. Survival? I'll be interested to read if any are still extant. I've heard the number four from a Hupp historian.

Watch carefully at 2:38 through 2;40, it drives right to left in front of the dealership. Pause the video to check the details,

Watching this home movie of Packard Dealer in Binghamton, NY, at 2:38 through 2:40 a large two-tone light colored sedan briefly appears. I believe it is a 1930-1932 Model U, the largest Eight made during those years. Steve

Our family shopped in Hornell, NY occasionally in those years, as a car-crazed kid I was fascinated by all car lots. A cement-block building was being built on Seneca Street in 1957 which became the stand-alone Edsel dealer later that year. The franchisee also owned Arkport Lincoln-Mercury so he covered his bets either way. When Ford folded Edsel into the Lincoln-Edsel-Mercury Division, the Edsels went to the Arkport location, the former dealer building a used car operation. It was used as such into the '70's, now a real estate office. Even as a child, I could tell the Edsel was pretty much a restyled Ford or Mercury, didn't seem to be anything like as special as it had been hyped. For all the derision heaped on Edsel for its unique styling, the basic concept pursued by the designers was valid. The broad, horizontal grille theme was dominant by the time Edsel stylist Roy Brown and Rob Jones were given the assignment to make the styling recognizable from a block away. A vertical, classic-inspired theme would deliver exactly that immediate identity. Why they didn't simply select a grille such as the '32 Ford or Lincoln for modern interpretation, avoiding the 'horse-collar' is unknown. Failing that, the headlights in the grille plane as seen by 1960 would have provided instant identity for a few years. In truth, given the major changes in purchasing patterns occurring in the late 1950's, it probably mattered little what the Edsel looked like. The contraction taking place in the medium-priced segment was going to shake out any of the weaker makes. As we saw, even a long-established make such as DeSoto could fade to nothing in a few short years; Edsel was doomed from the start. For a 'What if" imagine if Edsel had arrived as a compact car sized to compete with Rambler.

Anyone note what coachbuilder was for the 1929 double-entry convertible Victoria?

JunkyardJeff: Glad to hear you hear you are seeking a Packard V8. I suggest you check the Various CL Pickings thread on the PackardInfo.com site, sign on for free and join in too. We regular participants search Craigslist weekly for current Packard listings, highlight those which strike us as worthy of consideration. Many good '55-'56 models have been posted. The advice to be picky and buy the best one you can find for the price applies. Good luck with your search, one will turn up with persistence.

The second car, second row behind the 1936 Oldsmobile coach is a Graham Prosperity Six sedan, introduced after May 1931.

Hi Nice rare restoration project. If you haven't already, buy yourself a copy of Robert J Neal's book "Packard 1948 to 1950". Its available through the Packard Club website. Mr. Neal covers these car extensively as he does all other facets of that period in Packard history. Steve

Baker would be Baker-Raulang in Cleveland: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/baker_raulang/baker_raulang.htm

Hi AJ I copied these photos of a 1929 J8-90 seven passenger sedan offered on eBay a few years ago. Presumably it was their factory sedan body, the maker wasn't identified. Someone should have photos of the Brunn convertible Victoria bodied J8-90 that has been featured in various articles including Special Interest Autos magazine at one time. Steve

They might be for the early 1920's Packard Sixes 1922-25, photo could have been taken in the Pullman body plant in Chicago. Pullman, the Sleeping Car company, had an auto body making operation, Packard contracted with them to supply bodies in those years.

1928 Dodge Victory Six

Hello Trini This is the point where you "Ask the man who owns one" or more specifically, the men who own, work on, and have the most honest, unvarnished opinions, to be found on these forums: http://www.packardclub.org/forum/ http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/ The subject of the 110/Sixes and 120/Eights as collector cars, their problems and benefits have been discussed many times on each; searching a little should turn up those threads. While there is some truth to parts for Senior series Eights, Super Eights and Twelves being costly relative to the Junior series 110 and 120, the latter were equally fine quality cars built to a price, much as were comparable Buicks and Chryslers. If you should purchase that 110, it would be surprising if you found it any more costly to restore and maintain than any other comparable pre-war car. Good luck, hope you'll choose Packard as your collector car. Steve

The hood, windshield frame and rear bumper are '47-'50 Kaiser. Its one of those sport customs from the mid-to-late 1950's built from readily available sedans by those long on skill, short on money. It really should be restored.

What coachbuilder created that handsome cabriolet body?

The real problem these hyped auctions leave for younger, inexperienced viewers is not only an unrealistic view of collector car valuations but also that if one can't afford one of a selected group of highly sought, potentially high value, greatly popular collector cars, there is no point in acquiring something more ordinary and affordable to preserve and enjoy. Suggesting to a young person that because a highly desired whatever is well out of financial reach that they should turn their attention to one of the many available four door models of the era is likely to elicit a shrug. The shame of that is the experience of collector car learning and enjoyment is missed, perhaps even the car is lost without a next conservator to prevent that.

Hi CBoz By the time your '38 LeBaron was built, call it late custom body era, Briggs/LeBaron was pretty relaxed about how much of the total content was added in whose plant. Edsel Ford was one of their best customers, if he wanted the finish and trim in his Lincoln plant to keep it busy with that work, no doubt Briggs/LeBaron was happy to comply. Every year as they watched the diminishing demand for the large cars we call 'Classics" unfold, many adjustment in the way they did business had to be made to serve a shrinking market. Steve

Hi A.J. Yes, those V-windshield Individual Custom Dietrich bodies were coming from the plant Murray operated for its Dietrich coach-building arm, likely the same one that built the body for your Royale and the three other Packard 845 sport sedans and the eight sport sedan bodies as pictured on the '32 Lincoln KB shown above. Bodies such as the sedans and victoria coupe on the Lincoln KA and REO Royale were built in the regular Murray production body plants. The level of handwork wouldn't have been as great, more general production stamping and assembling. This takes nothing away from these cars, they were built with a very high level of quality. Hugo Pfau, who apprenticed with LeBaron, wrote that at times, to keep the custom coach-building operations busy during slow times, body shells would be built, finished in primer paint and shipped to the carmaker to finish the color coats and interior trim. It was referred to as "bodies in the white". He noted that for their LeBaron operation, they would only attach their "LeBaron" coach-builder tag if they had done the complete building, trimming and finishing of the body to their standards. When Marmon came to Briggs to build bodies for the Sixteen but looking for favorable unit prices, the work was done in the underutilized LeBaron shops "in the white" then shipped to Marmon's Indianapolis plant for painting and interior trimming. Thus, no "LeBaron" tags were affixed though structurally the body was a LeBaron product. Steve

Hi A.J. By the mid-1920's, mass production body suppliers such as Fisher, Briggs and Murray had noticed the lucrative business that had been developed by small custom body firms and each set about acquiring or developing their own in-house custom body division. Fisher was fully bought out by GM in 1926, concurrently had acquired control of Fleetwood Metal Body Company. Not to be outdone by a major competitor, Murrray created Dietrich, Inc., quoting from A Century of Automotive Style, 100 Years of American Car Design, by Michael Lamm and Dave Holls, page 52: "Fast forward now to Feb. 1925. After selling his interest in LeBaron to Ralph Roberts and leaving New York, Dietrich arrived in Detroit as a 50% partner in Dietrich Inc. The other half was owned by Murray Corp. of America. Murray, as mentioned, was a major body supplier to Lincoln, Ford, Reo, Hupmobile, Hudson and others." Last to acquire an in-house coach-building arm was Briggs after Walter Briggs approach LeBaron's owner Ralph Roberts et al with a deal in 1927, completed by 1930 when the last remnant of original NYC office closed. In each case, the parent, production body company set up the custom operation with a separate plant solely for low-volume series and full-custom coach-building. Custom coachwork was very profitable in the late 1920's but became a serious financial drain with the onset of the Great Depression. Each folded the coach-building business into the production operations to a greater or lesser degree as those difficult years wore on. As body building methods evolved from the metal-over-wood composite construction to all-steel by 1940, with its attendant higher cost tool and die-work and necessary higher production volumes to amortize those costs, coach-building operations largely became building lengthened versions or customizing production body shells. Within all this time, in which plants and how much can be identified as full, partial or minor custom coachbuilding is very hard to quantify. The parent companies generally supported the coachbuilding operations with functional work such as castings, forgings, plating, any basic craft operations that would be prohibitively costly to set up on a low-volume basis. It would be safe to say that any body with the "Dietrich, Inc." tag came from a plant Murray dedicated to that work. It would reflect the greater handcrafting and low-volume methods necessary to produce a body of the expected quality, though it might still contain content shared with volume production bodies. As even mid'30's production convertible sedans for were generally built in an off-the-main production line operation, like the 120 models, Murray may have felt justified applying the "Dietrich" tags. Steve

Hi A.J. It is a murky period in Murray/Dietrich history. The "Dietrich" nameplate had become a marketing vehicle to lend cache by then, absent the man himself creating the designs. de Sakhnoffsky's contribution seems have been applying the full-length, over-the-cowl hood then coming into vogue, as Briggs/LeBaron was doing for their customers. Those "Dietrich" tagged cars after his departure were the company utilizing his fine design-work to sell whatever series customs and the occasional full-custom bodies they could. Remember, in the end, they even stuck "Dietrich" tags onto the Packard 120 convertible sedans. My conclusion about that is someone found a box of unused "Dietrich" body tags on a shelf, convinced sales management it would be good for the sale of those expensive models to have a bit of 'custom-body designer' cache added. Steve

Hi West Does anyone know what date during 1931 Ray Dietrich left after the final set to with Clarence Avery? Most histories report it was during 1932 at the NYAC that Walter Chrysler offered him a position as body design consultant. Certainly Ray left dozens of sketches and developed design work that Murray lunched off for another three years plus. Amos Northup knew well not to heavily rework those as he knew quality work. He must have been mostly occupied with production car projects at the time. Chrysler body engineering mostly frustrated Dietrich and wasted his talents, and frankly their cars suffered for it. Too bad WPC didn't back up Dietrich like Alfred Sloan did for Misterl and Edsel Ford did for E.T. Gregorie. Steve