1926 Dodge Brothers Coolant Leak

[DB26]

Hello everyone.  I've had a small coolant leak on my Dodge since I bought the vehicle back in July.  Just this week that small coolant leak has turned into a very steady one dropping my coolant levels pretty quickly. I have a video here showing where it's leaking:

 

 

And here is a photo of the setup:  

 

 

It appears to be  leaking from left side of the water pump from the nut. 

 

My question is if I take this assembly apart am I going to need to rebuild the water pump or is it just a simple seal then I need to pack into the nut?

[JayG]

There's a graphite rope used to seal the shaft.  You don't seem to have much room to back off the packing nut in order to install new rope.  

[Wheelmang]

Hi Jay:

Recently had the exact same issue with my 26 DB. I first tried tightening the packing nut. One is RH thread the other is LH. Do not recall right now which was which. That did not work so I bit the bullet and rebuilt the entire unit. The old style packing rope was replaced with a new lip style seal. If your shaft is too badly pitted then neither of the sealing types will work. New shafts are readily available and not over the top expensive. Seals were ordered from my local parts house. 

PS: If you do take this all apart make sure you put the fan pulley back on the correct way. It will install backwards.  It was easier to remove the radiator to change my incorrectly installed one. 

Paul

[Spinneyhill]

If there is still a remnant of graphite rope in there, it is likely dry (the greasiness will have dried) and the graphite will have caused the shaft to corrode (galvanic corrosion). If so, you will have to either polish the shaft or replace it with new shiny one. I am using a square braided PTFE packing rope in my Dodge 8.

[EricHoman]

I had the same issue and repacked my water pump at the end of last summer. It was very tight, but I was able to get it done without taking anything apart. As Jay mentioned one nut is RH and one is LH thread. You will need some sort of pick to get in there and get the old packing out. I used the sturdiest paperclip I could find and probably spent a strong half an hour just picking the old dried up crap out. I got the packing from meyers early dodge and put it around the shaft with just a little extra grease.

 

My shaft was pretty pitted and worn, as yours likely will be, but it has held up so far. I did my best polish it a bit with steel wool but there is not much you can do in that tight of space.

 

 

[DB26]

Thank you everyone! Looks like I know what I'll be tackling this coming weekend. I'll be sure to take pics and keep you updated on the progress. Hopefully it's not pitted too bad. 

[nearchoclatetown]

The official picks are available pretty cheap, McMaster-Carr has them. A real good old plumbing house MAY have them too.

[DB26]

I'll check that out! 

[Wheelmang]

There is also a bolt going though the oil pan to the bottom of the assembly. I only mention in the interest of saving you a little time looking.  

[cahartley]

If you plan of keeping packings in it ANY pitting is too much.

The way that shaft looks I'm surprised the system isn't drained in five minutes flat....... 

 

[R.White]

I think your best bet is to overhaul the pump with a new shaft and modern lip seals.  When I did mine I also replaced the bearings. If the shaft wobbles you will need to replace these bushings too or all your efforts may come to nothing.  If you examine the pump when it is apart and you find the flange next to the impeller is rusted through, unfortunately the part is useless and another core will probably need to be sourced for the rebuild.  A note of caution; the bearings will pull out and go back in easily but I seem to remember they will only go one way and have a lip to press up to. The casting needs to be handled with care as it could break easily.  It would also probably pay to replace the impeller.  As the pump casting incorporates the distributor drive housing, while you air there you might like to check the distributor for wobble at it's "neck".  Slackness here will result in failure to get a steady dwell angle reading and consequently the ignition timing is adversely  affected.  One solution to this would be a bronze or brass bush pressed into the casting but of course it would need machining to take it.  Another solution is to place a shim under the body of the distributor. This will steady the distributor but by raising it up slightly the timing will be retarded.  The maximum manual advance /retard is restricted by a peg that locates in a slot in the distributor body and this may (or may not) prevent enough advance setting.  Best of luck.

 

Ray.   

[DB26]

6 hours ago, R.White said:

I think your best bet is to overhaul the pump with a new shaft and modern lip seals.  When I did mine I also replaced the bearings. If the shaft wobbles you will need to replace these bushings too or all your efforts may come to nothing.  If you examine the pump when it is apart and you find the flange next to the impeller is rusted through, unfortunately the part is useless and another core will probably need to be sourced for the rebuild.  A note of caution; the bearings will pull out and go back in easily but I seem to remember they will only go one way and have a lip to press up to. The casting needs to be handled with care as it could break easily.  It would also probably pay to replace the impeller.  As the pump casting incorporates the distributor drive housing, while you air there you might like to check the distributor for wobble at it's "neck".  Slackness here will result in failure to get a steady dwell angle reading and consequently the ignition timing is adversely  affected.  One solution to this would be a bronze or brass bush pressed into the casting but of course it would need machining to take it.  Another solution is to place a shim under the body of the distributor. This will steady the distributor but by raising it up slightly the timing will be retarded.  The maximum manual advance /retard is restricted by a peg that locates in a slot in the distributor body and this may (or may not) prevent enough advance setting.  Best of luck.

 

Ray.   

Wow. This is just the info I was hoping to get. I will definitely  check out all of these potential problems. Thank you very much 

[R.White]

You are more than welcome, DB26.

 

Ray.

[Wheelmang]

FYI - Lip seal is a National Seal number 253747. You will need at least 4. 

[MikeC5]

Good advice.  You may be surprised how much wear the packings can inflict on the shaft.  Mine had very deep grooves on what was probably the original shaft.  Hopefully the rest of it is in decent shape.  

[DB26]

8 hours ago, Wheelmang said:

FYI - Lip seal is a National Seal number 253747. You will need at least 4. 

You're a lifesaver 

 

 

Okay everyone, here is my progress so far:

 

 

I have the generator and the connecting disks disconnected. This has exposed the tip of the shaft. Looks pretty grimy so I'm not expecting a pretty picture when I remove the packing nuts. The disk that bolts to the water pump shaft has a keyway:

 

 

The keyway in the shaft doesn't look right to me: (too small? Maybe it's just me)

 

 

Here's a few other angles of the pump and shaft:

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by DB26
Added information (see edit history)

[Wheelmang]

Key way size looks OK. It is a tapered shaft. 

[R.White]

Be sure to mention that taper when ordering your new shaft because there are straight ended ones as well.

 

Ray.

[DB26]

I have the pump out! Here's how I began:

 

Pulley removed

 

Then the distributor

 

Heres what the inside of the leaking packing nut looked like

 

 

And here's some distributor pics

 

 

I kind of fudged up when removing it. I thought this was the retaining nut:

 

and now this is loose:

 

 

So I guess I'll have to redo the timing. I might have a few reference pics. And before I removed it, I put the distributor on #1. 

 

Heres some photos of the pump and gears

 

 

a closer look past the packing 

 

 

the packing

 

 

the pulley shaft 

 

 

this looks incorrect 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by DB26
Added photos (see edit history)

[Wheelmang]

Is that a crack radiating out from both sides of the drift pin?

 

[DB26]

Okay, update for today.

 

I looked at those "cracks" they appear to be surface scratches. BUT, I found this problem:

 

chipped distributor gear. The car was running fine before I removed the pump. Will I have to buy new gears? 

 

 

Here is the impeller, how does she look?

 

 

 

And the impeller housing 

 

 

 

let me know what you guys think. Should I buy a new gearset along with the new shaft, seals, gaskets and the like?

 

On a side note, everything has related part numbers and I can see the DB prefix on a few things, which is cool! 

[R.White]

You appear to have a good core. The castings are fine as is the impeller. I don't think the distributor gear damage was caused in service; rather, I would wager a previous owner has tried to remove the gear and not been too careful.  These parts break easily if abused.  I doubt you would have a problem if it was O.K. before but depending on how fastidious you are if you are renewing the shaft, you may feel it better to renew the gear. Your call!

 

Ray.

[Wheelmang]

What Ray said.

Also just a thought for you. At least for my restoration - there are so many gaskets that are needed. I went to the local parts store and purchased assorted rolls of gasket material and hole punches. It has saved me a lot of $$ in the long run. 

[Spinneyhill]

Should there be a carbon washer between the impeller and the housing?

[R.White]

There is very little information in the various instruction manuals; including the Book of Information about the pump.  For what it's worth, I have not found a carbon washer.   Perhaps someone with a parts manual can confirm?  Most I have seen the impeller has been chewed up. 

 

While you have the generator removed it might be a good time to check it out.  Normal servicing would require replacement brushes but in my case an incorrect unit had been installed.  I replaced it with an excellent rebuilt unit from Myers.

 

 

 

 

 

As an aside, looking at the photo where the generator has been removed, you will probably have noticed a special plug that is normally hidden behind it .  To many, this plug is a mystery because it seems not to be mentioned in the various workshop manuals but on stripping my engine I established that it does in fact determine the camshaft end float.  There is a peg that locates in a groove in the camshaft.  The plug is just a taper fit and can be removed by using the threaded hole to attach either a bolt or a puller.  The camshaft cannot be removed until it is taken out.  

 

Ray.

[Wheelmang]

21 hours ago, R.White said:

 There is a peg that locates in a groove in the camshaft.  The plug is just a taper fit and can be removed by using the threaded hole to attach either a bolt or a puller.  The camshaft cannot be removed until it is taken out.  

 

Ray.

Interesting! I have wondered what that was for.

Thanks for posting. 

[DB26]

Well I made a huge mistake. Hopefully there's a fix for this blunder. As I was taking the gears and impeller off, I didn't notice the keyways slamming themselves on the brass bushings. Here's the carnage:

 

Big indent here. 

 

 

kind of hard to see but this one is all dented in

 

 

 

Is there anything I can do? Are there replacements available? 

 

The speedometer drive gear does appear to have one crack after all. Hopefully I can get a new one:

 

 

 

Everything else went pretty well. Here the pins for both sides

 

 

And I think someone tried to drill the impeller out or drill the keyway or something:

 

 

 

more of the impeller 

 

 

 

 

The big gear

 

 

 

So the list now grows to:

 

Shaft

seals

distributor drive gear

bushings if available 

gaskets 

 

Am I missing anything? 

 

And Ray, are the bushing I thrashed the bearings? In notice the oil runs through them. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by DB26
Added info (see edit history)

[R.White]

Well, forgive me, but I did say these parts are easily damaged!

 

I think it all depends on how well the new shaft rotates in the bushings.  If there is any "wobble" the bushings are going to need replacement. If good, the damage will probably 'clean up' in use. If you do need new bushings, they may or may not be available but they are simple enough to turn up on a lathe (if you have access to one) or someone who can do it for you. Spiral oil ways are more tricky to do but straight ones will be just as good. 

 

Please note the two punch marks on the big gear..  These need to be aligned with corresponding punch mark on the cam gear.  If you can't see the punch mark on the cam gear you might need to remove the timing gear covers. to gain access. To do this first removing the radiator.  It's not as drastic as it might sound.

 

Note; it is possible the punch mark you are looking for cannot be found.  For example, my cam gear has been replaced with a fibre one  without the mark.  Actually, I don't think it is all that important.

Ray.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[DB26]

34 minutes ago, R.White said:

Well, forgive me, but I did say these parts are easily damaged!

 

I think it all depends on how well the new shaft rotates in the bushings.  If there is any "wobble" the bushings are going to need replacement. If good, the damage will probably 'clean up' in use. If you do need new bushings, they may or may not be available but they are simple enough to turn up on a lathe (if you have access to one) or someone who can do it for you. Spiral oil ways are more tricky to do but straight ones will be just as good. 

 

Please note the two punch marks on the big gear..  These need to be aligned with corresponding punch mark on the cam gear.  If you can't see the punch mark on the cam gear you might need to remove the timing gear covers. to gain access. To do this first removing the radiator.  It's not as drastic as it might sound.

 

Note; it is possible the punch mark you are looking for cannot be found.  For example, my cam gear has been replaced with a fibre one  without the mark.  Actually, I don't think it is all that important.

Ray.

 

I am going to try to locate a pair of bushings/bearings right now. I have a feeling they might have needed to be replaced anyway. The oil ways on the pump side were caked with debris, so they probably haven't gotten oil for a long time. I called Myers and they do not have it. Left a message for ROMAR. I'll make a post of here as well and if all else fails, procure a machinist. 

 

Thank you for the insight on the punch marks. I will keep this in mind. Whether it's important or not lol

Edited January 21, 2018 by DB26 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

My guess is the impeller or shaft have been replaced separately at some time, i.e. not as a pair. When these were made, the impeller was fitted up and the pin hole drilled through the shaft and impeller. The hole was not necessarily drilled through the centre of the shaft. All they wanted was a hole to put a pin into. My Dodge 8 was the same for both the impeller and the pulley on the other end. That impeller is in remarkably good condition so I suspect it has not had a lot of use.

 

Any good machine shop should be able to fit new bushes to that pump. But impress on them that it is OLD cast iron and brittle and there aint no more of them.

[MikeC5]

You may want to purchase the replacement shaft before bringing it to the machinist.  He'll probably want to ream the bushings after installation to fit the shaft properly.

 

[DB26]

On 1/22/2018 at 4:40 PM, MikeC5 said:

You may want to purchase the replacement shaft before bringing it to the machinist.  He'll probably want to ream the bushings after installation to fit the shaft properly.

 

I will definitely do this 

 

update everyone,

 

I am cleaning up the water pump housing right now while I wait to get parts and have Bushings made, and it appears the oil hole on the water pump impeller side isn't lined up with the bushing, what's the deal? 

 

[Spinneyhill]

The hole is probably on the bottom. There will be a reservoir in the casting behind the bush. Sometimes they put a wick in the reservoir (e.g. my DC generator rear bearing).

[DB26]

While I'm waiting on parts, I decided to clean up and paint the pump. Here is it bare metal:

 

 

 

 

and after a few coats of high heat black:

 

 

 

 

I enjoy doing this ?

[Wheelmang]

Lookin good!!

[MikeC5]

Nice job.  

[sligermachine]

On 1/21/2018 at 1:57 PM, R.White said:

Spiral oil ways are more tricky

I like to just set up a threading bar, take a big cut say .060 deep and turn the chuck by hand wile feeding the bar out with the other hand for oil groves or grease  the bar normally pushes back say .020 so you end up with .040 deep cut done it that way for 30 years works good takes no time at all .  Just  before the finish pass on the I.D. say .007 left for the last pass .In brass or bronze,steel all the same .---Kyle 

[R.White]

1 hour ago, sligermachine said:

I like to just set up a threading bar, take a big cut say .060 deep and turn the chuck by hand wile feeding the bar out with the other hand for oil groves or grease  the bar normally pushes back say .020 so you end up with .040 deep cut done it that way for 30 years works good takes no time at all .  Just  before the finish pass on the I.D. say .007 left for the last pass .In brass or bronze,steel all the same .---Kyle 

 

You are an experienced machinist so you have the confidence to do that.  I would be sure to mess up the bushings so I would need to practise on scrap first. If I did it they would be straight cut.

 

Ray.

Edited February 1, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I often wonder if it is a good idea to put a groove in a bush. The groove just feeds the oil out each end of the bush without it actually lubricating anything? I have read this somewhere too. If you do not put in a groove, the spinning shaft and the surface tension of the oil pull the oil into the bush and spread it.

[R.White]

I suggest that the idea is to get lubrication to the parts of the rotating shaft where it wouldn't otherwise receive any.  Isn't this is why crankshaft bearings have grooves. ?

 

Ray.