Do Brake Linings and Mounting Hardware matter?

[Beemon]

Since I got my front Roadmaster brakes, it's been more trouble than it's worth. For starters, I had the driver side shoes expand at 65 MPH on the highway and cause rough shuddering until I was able to pull over and expand the shoes out. I had originally replaced the front shoes that came with the backing plates with some shoes from NAPA that are their Ultra Premium brand. They also had their standard Proformer brand, which is what I had run before with the 12x2.25 shoes. The issue I've come across now is that the original 12x2.25 shoes I had on the car have a different cut for the friction material as the 12x2.5 Ultra Premium stuff and the 12x2.5 Proformer stuff is also different from the other two. On top of this, I compared my old 12x2.25 shoes to new 12x2.25 shoes and they also had a different friction cut pattern. All the shoe sets were different from each other. The TS197 number (12x2.25 Proformer) also has a different brake shoe metal footprint than the TS127 (12x2.5 Proformer), which is the same as the Ultra Premium stuff.

 

My question is, does this all matter? Thickness of friction material, the way it's cut and bonded, and the mounting bracket under the shoe? This is really frustrating me because in anticipation to this I haven't heard of anyone else having issues and there's plenty of Roadmasters out there. I'm really thinking these subtle differences will screw with the triangulation. The master parts book at the local NAPA, the 40 year old one, even says that on 52-56 Buick Roadmasters, to give them the 12x2.25 shoes up front, despite the drums being 12x2.5.

 

Pictures included:

The paint on the outside of the drum cooked clean off.

 

NAPA Ultra Premium

 

NAPA 12x2.25 Proformer

 

12x2.5 shoes that came with the backing plates

 

Anchor points are different (lower on the 12x2.5 shoes)

 

Adjuster point is higher on the 12x2.5 shoes

 

Return spring holes are placed differently

 

 

[NTX5467]

First concern to me, would be the metal contraption the friction material is attached to.  THEN get the hardware kit to match the vehicle application the brake parts came off of.  I suspect that the different spring holes might relate to one vehicle rather than another one the brakes might also fit.

 

In the realm of replacement brake friction sets, the "127" is an industry part number for the shoes.  The letters prior to it define the level of performance of the frictions, and little else.  In this case, "performance" is not in when the chickens are up late.c

 

Seems like there was another thread about 4 brake shoes and they all had something unique to each one.  I believe the OP matched the linings into "axle sets" with the best lining match with the longer shoes and then similarly done with the shorter shoes.  Searching for that thread might be informative.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

2 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

First concern to me, would be the metal contraption the friction material is attached to.  THEN get the hardware kit to match the vehicle application the brake parts came off of.  I suspect that the different spring holes might relate to one vehicle rather than another one the brakes might also fit.

 

So what you're saying is, the difference in the lining mounting metal will make a significant enough difference in performance to warrant not using them? If that is the case, then I'm probably screwed and would have been better off just staying with the 12x2.25 shoes. I hope some Roadmaster owners chime in with what shoes they use for the front 12x2.5 shoes because everything over the counter looks like this.

[Bob Engle]

I have had some issues with braking  when I bought over the counter replacement brakes.  Since then I have decided to send the original shoes out for relining to restoration shops where I can have a discussion about the type of material bonded to the original shoes.  It is my opinion that modern linings tend to be too hard for drum brakes and cause an imbalance in braking effort.  Notice that I said opinion.  These braking issues seem to be more prevalent with older cars, especially with non- power brake cars.

 

Bob Engle

 

 

[EmTee]

From your photos, my first concern would be with the metal 'shoe' itself.  It looks to me as if the new shoes were manufactured with shoddy quality control.  I'd go back to NAPA and try to look at other examples on the shelf to see if they're all the same.  Ask the counterperson to pull the box from the back of the shelf - the one with all of the dust on it.  Then compare it against the one in the new box up front.

 

I think that Bob has the best solution, although it's the most inconvenient.  Do you still have the old shoes that came with your Roadmaster brakes?

[avgwarhawk]

I have completed many brake drum jobs in the past.  Every job I had completed the shoe may not be a dead match to the shoe that was being replaced.   A spring attachment hole may be just a bit different. The star adjuster seat shaped a bit different.  However, I did install like shoes for the same axle.  In other words all 4 shoes matched each other on the same axle.  Concerning the material and the cut, each was similar.  Bonded or riveted shoes did not make much difference from my experience.   

 

Perhaps look to another vendor or another member to get a set of original shoes for reline if you do not have your originals any longer.   

[Bob Engle]

One way to check the shoes would be to put the drum on the hub, adjust the shoes out for drag, pull the drum and mount a magnetic base dial indicator on the spindle and check for runout and concentricity.  Bendix brakes work by the expanded shoes pivoting against the anchor pin on the back shoe.  If the pin location and shoe are not working concentrically you will have poor braking.  The return spring location aren't important as long as the shoes return properly.  

 

You don't mention what work was done to the drums when the shoes were replaced. Were the shoes arced to match the drum diameter?

Bob Engle

[old-tank]

With that much difference in the hardware of the shoes, it might be best to follow the service manual and adjust the anchor pin.

Or take the original shoes to be relined (with specified linings), drums turned and shoes arced to fit the drums:  http://www.brakeandclutchsupply.com/services.shtml

[Beemon]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Even I got the drums, I had them turned and that was about it. Looks like I need to track down some original shoes. 

 

I pulled many sets from over the counter and all the 12x2.25 shoes looked correct and all the 12x2.5 shoes looked to be the other style. I haven't had issue with over the counter shoes when using the 12x2.25 shoes, only just recently with the 12x2.5 shoes. 

[Fr. Buick]

Look carefully at your shop manual pictures and take note of the detailing of the shoe, this will tell you what shoes are correct.  When I put Roadmaster 2.5 inch-wide brakes on my Super (1954), I ran into the same problem with aftermarket shoes.  A slightly different detailing on the bottom made the adjuster hang up a bit and not function right.  The discrepancy at the top should probably be adjusted out at the locator pin, which slides up and down.  See your FSM for details.

 

Roadmaster 2.5 shoes are harder to come by, they sold a lot less Roadmasters in the day.  All other models had the 2.25.

 

My advice, grab two pair of Roadmaster shoes off your closest parts cars, and send them for relining to a shop in your area.  Keep one set as spares.

[Bhigdog]

The only thing I can contribute to the conversation is that I COULD NOT get my 57 to stop with 3 different over the counter shoes. I sent them out to a reline shop, put them on, and now the car stops on a dime and gives me 9 cents change............Bob

[Airy Cat]

I think that 1968 Cadillac front shoes are 2.5 inches wide and will fit the Roadmaster.

[Beemon]

9 hours ago, Fr. Buick said:

Look carefully at your shop manual pictures and take note of the detailing of the shoe, this will tell you what shoes are correct.  When I put Roadmaster 2.5 inch-wide brakes on my Super (1954), I ran into the same problem with aftermarket shoes.  A slightly different detailing on the bottom made the adjuster hang up a bit and not function right.  The discrepancy at the top should probably be adjusted out at the locator pin, which slides up and down.  See your FSM for details.

 

Roadmaster 2.5 shoes are harder to come by, they sold a lot less Roadmasters in the day.  All other models had the 2.25.

 

My advice, grab two pair of Roadmaster shoes off your closest parts cars, and send them for relining to a shop in your area.  Keep one set as spares.

 

Looks like that's my next big ticket item... There's a 53 Roadmaster by me, but the car is on the ground, resting on the backing plates.

 

10 minutes ago, Airy Cat said:

I think that 1968 Cadillac front shoes are 2.5 inches wide and will fit the Roadmaster.

 

That's what's pictured above.

 

Looks like I'll be converting back to 2.25 shoes until I can find both some original cores and a local relining shop.

[old-tank]

On 4/6/2017 at 9:45 PM, Beemon said:

Since I got my front Roadmaster brakes, it's been more trouble than it's worth. For starters, I had the driver side shoes expand at 65 MPH on the highway and cause rough shuddering until I was able to pull over and expand the shoes out. I had originally replaced the front shoes that came with the backing plates with some shoes from NAPA that are their Ultra Premium brand. They also had their standard Proformer brand, which is what I had run before with the 12x2.25 shoes. The issue I've come across now is that the original 12x2.25 shoes I had on the car have a different cut for the friction material as the 12x2.5 Ultra Premium stuff and the 12x2.5 Proformer stuff is also different from the other two. On top of this, I compared my old 12x2.25 shoes to new 12x2.25 shoes and they also had a different friction cut pattern. All the shoe sets were different from each other. The TS197 number (12x2.25 Proformer) also has a different brake shoe metal footprint than the TS127 (12x2.5 Proformer), which is the same as the Ultra Premium stuff.

 

My question is, does this all matter? Thickness of friction material, the way it's cut and bonded, and the mounting bracket under the shoe? This is really frustrating me because in anticipation to this I haven't heard of anyone else having issues and there's plenty of Roadmasters out there. I'm really thinking these subtle differences will screw with the triangulation. The master parts book at the local NAPA, the 40 year old one, even says that on 52-56 Buick Roadmasters, to give them the 12x2.25 shoes up front, despite the drums being 12x2.5.

 

Pictures included:

The paint on the outside of the drum cooked clean off.

Back to the beginning....

I am not understanding the statement:  " For starters, I had the driver side shoes expand at 65 MPH on the highway and cause rough shuddering until I was able to pull over and expand the shoes out."  Were the shoes too tight and you backed off the adjustment?  Shuddering while driving or braking?

Somebody else with a 56 and/or a 56 with 2.5 inch drums may need to jump in here, but the drum does not look like an original Buick drum (that after ignoring the fact that it is attached to the hub with bolts and not the original rivets and locating pin).  Another possibility:  is the hub different on 2.25 vs 2.5 inch assemblies?

 

 

[Beemon]

From my research, the drums and backing plates are different, everything else is the same. The drums are newer from a vender, but again were checked and trued up. I expanded the shoes about 8 clicks out and after pulling over, I expanded them another 6 clicks until the drag was gone, but then I had a really low pedal. My guess is that the drums were contacting the shoes at high speed enough to heat them up and expand. After expanding, I had light shuddering on braking only. 

[JohnD1956]

Regarding brake adjustment, The manual says to expand the brakes till it takes two hands to rotate the tire, then contract the brakes by 15 clicks of the star wheel.  If there was any drag when you started your trip it could be that heat caused some expansion and binding of the brakes, and you must have contracted them by the 6 extra clicks, otherwise expanding them would have lead to complete binding.

 

Since the drums appear to have gotten overheated it is possible they will need to be turned again to true them up.

 

 

[old-tank]

The brake line on that side, maybe holding pressure check it or change it.

[NTX5467]

It seems there is too much "expanding" going on, in TWO different directions!  If the base adjustment on the shoes was good for a time, but suddenly was not (when the vehicle was in motion!), what changed?  After the shoes "expanded" and you further "expanded" them to get the car to roll again?  I suspect we can decode things enogh to determine what's happening, but the only thing I can think of that will "auto apply" the brakes is contaminated brake fluid expanding the rubber diaphragm in the cap of the master cylinder (that happened to a customer once, from a "quick" place she had the oil changed at).  I suspect that's not the case here, though (or HOPE not!).

 

As Old-Tank mentioned, a brake hose can delaminate internally and make a one-way valve to keep a particular wheel's brake cylinder energized enough to cause issues.  Although things look fine on the outside.

 

As we talked about talking to your car a while back, have you been neglecting to do this, in an affectionate manner?  OR have you been treating Lady Century as "an appliance"?

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Lol Lady Century gets the sweet treatment when the girlfriends aren't watching. 

 

I thought about the hoses but I replaced all three two years ago. I also thought about swapping wheel cylinders, too. I used the wheel cylinders that came with the backing plates but retained my original hoses. Could the wheel cylinder hang up on the inside? Maybe I got some dirt somehow in the opening when installing? Just started nights at the Amazon warehouse  so I won't be able to check until Wednesday, but since I pulled the drum and sanded the shoe a bit with 80 grit sandpaper, they seem to be doing better. 

[60FlatTop]

When in doubt you can run a piece of #8 electric wire through a brake hose that you are going to reuse. If there is any delamination of the walls you will feel it. Even if it only expands under pressure the separation usually doesn't return to the wall size.

 

When reusing a wheel cylinder look for pits in the inside area between the cups. If you install new shoes the thickness of the lining will bring the cups closer together putting the cup lip on the pitted surface, possibly causing a drag or loss of the seal.

Bernie

[old-tank]

21 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

When reusing a wheel cylinder

New wheel cylinders are too cheap:  $4.25 to $25 from Rockauto...NAPA has them (listed in old books it the computer does not).

[Fr. Buick]

I think your problem was the funky notch at the bottom of the shoes.  The adjuster will not fit for proper articulation.  Put the shoes together with just the bottom spring and the adjuster, lay them on  bench and try to stimulate their working by hand, and I think you will see your broblem.

[NTX5467]

u50+ years ago, "new" parts generally weren't used.  Brake wheel cylinders were "rebuilt" by using a brake cylinder hone (on a drill motor) to clean the wheel cylinder body before the new spring, cups, and seals were installed.  It generally took a few strokes of the hone, followed by a dousing with clean brake fluid, a "digital check" for roughness of the cylinder bore (possibly followed by a little more hone time), and then the rebuilding process proceeded, usually with good success and durability.  It was messy as a catch pan was under the stripped backing plate (except for the attached wheel cylinder body), but didn't take long and worked well.  Most cylinders "rebuilt" rather than needing replacement.  In that time, there were still many who trusted their local mechanic to do the work rather than purchase "new" when rebuilt worked fine (for less money).

 

And THAT was before we really worried about fluid absorption of an open brake fluid gallon in the service bay!  Now, that same situation would be termed "contaminated, don't use"!

 

Now that we're 50+ years down the road, corrosion issues can become great enough, plus a lack of good repair techs in that area, that using "new" can be better than "rebuilt" AND can make the potential saleability of the vehicle better.  In other cases, getting the cylinders sleeved (ala Corvette 4-piston calipers) is a more expensive option.  As with other aspects of our possessions, giving future owners possible "peace of mind" can be important.

 

NTX5467

Edited April 9, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)