1912 Humber

[oldcar]

Changing the subject ever so slightly I have only just been sent the attached photographs of another of my Lagonda Rapiers.

With winter just around the corner for all those in the northern hemisphere you may enjoy this one of Helen and the Rapier on a very frosty morning.

 

Bernie j.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello 

Not a great deal happening on the Humber right now, Work is progressing on the engine and I spent an hour or so at Crankshaft Rebuilders discussing what action should be taken with various components. I also took the foot brake shoes to be relined (both of them). The foot brake works externally on a drum directly behind the gear box. Rather than a contracting band as seen on early American rear wheels, the Humber has a pair of shoes that are pulled onto the outside of the drum. Sorry no photo at present. My "brake man" still has a small stock of woven linings and will use some of that rather than modern moulded material although he will bond the lining to the shoes, it seems that no one uses rivets these days.

To help with my depression, I spent an hour or two doing some cost projections. You really do not want to know but I would be interested to hear what you think the finished cost should be?

 

Bj

Edited November 24, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[r1lark]

Finished cost will be 36 skinned knuckles, 12 backaches, 64 cuts, 13 bruises, 112 hours of frustration, and countless hours of satisfaction resulting from bringing a unique car back from an almost certain death. All of this will equate to many hours of joyous motoring by you and your wife. 

 

This experience can't be measured in monetary amounts, so adding up the money expenditure is not worth doing. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by r1lark (see edit history)

[jp928]

I only quantify driving in Smiles per Mile. The rest is irrelevant, unless you become a Schlumpf.

 

jp 26 Rover 9

[oldcar]

I probably have driven more old car miles than almost anyone reading this and I probably could still be classified as a Schlumpf although I would not want to swap places with either of the brothers.

We visited the "Schlumpf Collection" in the 1970s shortly after the "workers" took over. I doubt very few of you even know what I am talking about.

Unfortunately I do not have  a lavishly equipped workshop so I have to send a lot of the detailed machining work out. I have yet to meet the person who runs a machine shop who will work for "smiles". You will have to introduce me to some of these wonderfully generous people. 

Like anyone trying to live on an age pension I do have to be careful where and how I spend my money. In truth I am probably mad even trying to restore cars at all.

Perhaps I should stop now while I am in front. I could save a lot of time by giving this forum a miss for a start.

I doubt that any of you know what it is to be truly impecunious!

 

Bernie Jacobson

an Impecunious Enthusiast.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

If you can find a copy of it look at  Denis Jenkinson & Peter Verstappen's "The Schlumph Obsession" I have a copy on my bookshelf but it does not leave the room.  isbn 0 600 382275 3

 

There  are  a few on EBAY why not grab a  copy.

 

Bj

[r1lark]

5 hours ago, oldcar said:

I doubt that any of you know what it is to be truly impecunious!

Well, I for one had to look this word up!  Impecunious = having little or no money

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

14 hours ago, r1lark said:

Finished cost will be 36 skinned knuckles, 12 backaches, 64 cuts, 13 bruises, 112 hours of frustration, and countless hours of satisfaction resulting from bringing a unique car back from an almost certain death. All of this will equate to many hours of joyous motoring by you and your wife. 

 

This experience can't be measured in monetary amounts, so adding up the money expenditure is not worth doing. 

 

  I agree. The fisherman does not worry about the cost per fish. MUCH cheaper at the meat market. The climber does not count the cost per foot of progress. You get the idea. 

 

  On the other hand, I KNOW where Bernie is coming from.  I think I am kinda sorta like something I read somewhere. "I want to have just enough to get there with. I want to bounce the check to the undertaker". Something like that. 

 

  Bernie, if I lived in your neighborhood, I would be honored to rub shoulders with you.

 

  Ben

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

6 hours ago, oldcar said:

 

 

Bernie Jacobson

an Impecunious Enthusiast.

 

 

 

 I resemble that signature, Bernie. That is a good one.

 

  Ben

[oldcar]

Thank you Ben I am glad that you understand.

Regarding the Hobby Fisherman stuff, I have on my shelf an antique fishing reel, it belonged to my father, I NEVER in my entire life saw him use it, like so many hopefulls he simply gave up out of frustration.

For every succesful angler, there are dozens, if not hundreds, who never catch a bl--dy fish!

 

Paul, after more than 60 years of playing with old cars I think know all about the cuts, bruises and abrasions. I know about the frustrations too. I also know all the pontifications that are regularly trotted out and they don't make one iota of difference.

I have spent a lifetime of being critical of "gunners" and the people who leave abandoned projects to lie rotting is sheds and I absolutely hate the prospect of becoming one of them. I am determined not to allow this to happen.

In the past I have always kept a running total of every cent spent on a restoration. It may please you to learn that with the Humber I am making a point of not doing this.

The one thing I can promise you, there is just one thing that will prevent me from finishing it.

 

I will leave you to work that one out!

 

Bernie j.

 

Finally Ben

I have worked out a way to completely cheat the Undertaker, My cadaver is to go to the Anatomy Department at the Medical School of the Melbourne University. After three years they dispose of any unwanted remains in the local incinerator.

 

Bj.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Just to be on the safe side I thought that I should check with the University that I was still on their 'waiting list". 

I have received a very prompt reply, saying that all was OK but to be on the safe side that they would update my details.

They have a slab available any time I need it, but there is no need to rush.

You can tell your Undertaker friends, I won't need to be measured for a box, no matter how plain or fancy.

Some eager young student can have  fun trying to find out what made me tick. 

I  don't want to tempt fate but I was told 12 years ago that the Cancer surgery I was about to have performed would give me another five years.

(see also:- Neo-bladder)

 

Bernie j.

Edited November 27, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Landman]

On 11/25/2016 at 2:04 AM, oldcar said:

I probably have driven more old car miles than almost anyone reading this and I probably could still be classified as a Schlumpf although I would not want to swap places with either of the brothers.

We visited the "Schlumpf Collection" in the 1970s shortly after the "workers" took over. I doubt very few of you even know what I am talking about.

Unfortunately I do not have  a lavishly equipped workshop so I have to send a lot of the detailed machining work out. I have yet to meet the person who runs a machine shop who will work for "smiles". You will have to introduce me to some of these wonderfully generous people. 

Like anyone trying to live on an age pension I do have to be careful where and how I spend my money. In truth I am probably mad even trying to restore cars at all.

Perhaps I should stop now while I am in front. I could save a lot of time by giving this forum a miss for a start.

I doubt that any of you know what it is to be truly impecunious!

 

Bernie Jacobson

an Impecunious Enthusiast.

 

 

That is why I returned to building models after I completed my '34 Chevy. They cost less, they use less room, the parts are nowhere near as heavy, less bruising and aches. If it doesn't run who cares. 

[oldcar]

Thank you Pat. 

I am sorry Model Making is simply not for me. I don't have the skill or patience to make proper scale models and when it comes to gluing all those little bits of pastic together, forget it.

I have one very good friend with a room absolutely full of unfinished models and about  100+ unopended boxes of all sorts of kits.

Out in the garage he has an unfinished Lotus Europa, an unfinished Porsche, two unfinished Alfa Romeos, an unfinished Lagonda, in another garage he has an unfinished Jaguar and an unfinished Fornula Junior race car. I really don't know but there are sure to be some things that I don't know about. He is currently building an extension on his shed to house more unfinished cars that I don't know about. Oh yes! he lives in an unfinished house. He is a great guy but I would not want to be him.

I could never subscribe to your theory that "no one cares if it does not run". I have just proved that wrong. I care about my own project car and about when it will be finished so that I can drive it. I have always thought that is  why we restore cars, so we can drive them.

I don't really care what may be dozens of people reading this think.

 

I care! and that is what matters to me.

All too soon I will have finished my life  and then it will be too late. Below is just a small sample starting with a 1938 Morris 8hp built when I was 18 or 19 years old, 60 years ago! Believe it or not at that time the Morris was my every day transport.

 

Bernie j

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Have fun, Bernie.

 

  Ben

[oldcar]

Hello Ben

Was that a question, a greeting or an instruction?

Either way thank you for your on-going interest.

If it was a question; the answer would be invariably yes.  Restoring vintage cars has been an ongoing influence in my life. To say that I have enjoyed every minute would be telling a lie, there are always some frustrations in every restoration but that can be said of every facet of life.

Believe it or not I have fun writing these posts for the Forum. I like to think that I have made some real friends through the AACA, I just hope that I do not disappoint too many. I would be first to admit that at times I can be a little volatile but I usually calm down just as quickly. I cannot see any point in harbouring grudges. There is definitely no fun in that. 

Every project has its challenges and the Humber is certainly not lacking in that department but then every challenge met and overcome is a reason to keep going. It is all part of the FUN.

 

Bj

[oldcar]

Not only but also!

Looking at the collection displayed above I realise that there some other interesting cars that you may like to see.

No prizes but how many can you recognise? If I go looking I am sure I could find some more but that is probably more than enough. One car appears twice but in different clothes. The fabric bodied  Dodge Four second from the top was built as a "nose thumbing" exercise aimed at 3 and 4.5 Litre  Bentley owners. It was  known as the "Le Mans" Dodge. I hope that you can see the likeness. The bottom car was the first Lagonda Rapier I have owned. As with all the others with the exception of the Sunbeam Talbot (EY 245) it was rebuilt from "basket cases" .

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[zipdang]

An amazing record of your adventures! I definitely admire the "one at a time" philosophy. Budget has always held me to one "fun" car at a time, but knowing how I tend to act when too many things are pulling at me, that limitation has kept the hobby enjoyable. Looking forward to the further Humber installments.

[oldcar]

Hello Zipdang

I am pleased to find at least one other person who sticks to the one  "fun" car at a time policy. I have neither space or funds to endulge myself any further but even if I did that would not change anything.

I despair when I talk to people who claim to be "collectors" who never do anything constructive with their cars. I was speaking with one such person earlier today. He lives on 28 acres so has plenty of space, provided he does not mind that his collection is slowly sinking into the ground. Either that or simply rusting away. He may fool himself that he is saving the numerous cars spread about his property but already most of them are beyond rescue. By the time he reaches my age they will have all but disappeared. I don't know about other parts of the world but I can think of any number of people with "collections" such as this. Changing the subject ever so slightly I was taken yesterday to a "Specialist Collector Car Wholesaler". Among the dozens and dozens of Porsches, Ferraris etc etc I was shown an early E Type Jaguar with just 14,000 miles recorded  on the speedo. I was told that it would be a crime to drive it any further!

What a total waste of a car and yet I was told that it was probably one of the most expensive Jaguars in the World with a price tag that ran into the Millions & Millions. It had not been started in the last several years! The one consolation was, that by now, if started it would drive like a dog.

Never mind! 

It is appreciating faster than Stocks & Shares or Real Estate and much faster than money in the Bank.

 

Woweeee!!!

Pardon me while I go over into the corner to be sick.

 

Bernie j.

Edited December 1, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Sick ? So sorry , World Class Cruiser , Bernie. Perhaps this will help with your recovery ! If you , like many here have seen this before , just let me assure you that if I had a Ferrari GTO , a Bugatti Royale , "THE" Bucciali , an SJ Duesenberg, etc. , I would have them out on a remote lonely road , as would you. Unlike your magnificent restorations , this old Cad is an unrestored original. Some admonished me against starting a 5000 mile trip (only about 1/2 the miles , the outbound leg so far). "A reference standard museum piece ! Don't drive it !". I included a pic from what would be your driving position , on your side of the road. Hope it puts a healthy smile on your distinguished face ! Thank you so very much for sharing your skills , creations , point of view , and life lessons with us. I am almost as old as you , and have been having long distance road adventures since I was a toddler in the '40s. My parents were long distance car campers , and I carried on. CARRY ON , ESTEEMED BROTHER !  - Carl

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by C Carl
Spelling corrections so far noticed (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Carl

While you are still a comparative youngster I like your attitude. The Cad must be a fantastic touring car although the steering may be a little on the heavy side (at parking speed) it must simply eat up those long straight roads. As you already appreciate, I am a little "strange" in that I love "little" cars. I also have a "thing" about climbing alpine passes. Many of my "peers" consider me to be decidedly odd, because of my passion for saving "lost causes" and "basket cases" projects that I am told only a lunatic would attempt. All the cars shown on my previous post with the exception of one (mentioned) fitted this description. (it was only slightly scruffy) Unfortunately I do not have "before" photographs for all of them. 

Certainly the 1912 Humber is typical having been dismantled in the late 1950s or early 60s. Before a lot of the people reading this were born.

 

Bernie j.

[oldcar]

Work on the Humber continues although much of it is mind numbingly boring stuff like replacing the oilseals in the rear hubs and wire brushing the rust off the hubcap. At present I am locked in a battle to remove the foot brake drum from the rear of the gearbox. It has resisted all the convential methords of persuasion and I need to design and make a suitable, one use only, puller to remove it. The Humber design engineers in 2012 had a distrust of Woodruf Keys and almost invariably used two at every application

Edited December 2, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

The Humber uses Humber's own pattern centre lock wire spoke wheels which used a peg drive rather than a Rudge-Whitworth type splined hub. The Hub caps ALL have a right hand thread and to prevent them from coming loose the hub caps incorportated a spring loaded peg which engages in the coarse castellations around the outside of the wheel centre. The hubcaps have a large raised hexagon and the wheel wrench is basically a large ring spanner which has a humb operated lever which depresses the spring loaded peg to enable the hubcap to be removed. It is remarkable that the wheel wrench had remained with the "car" despite its long period of hibernation. The photographs hopefully are self explanatory.

Edited December 3, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Going back to my earlier post, the expression "Basket Case" goes back to WW1, at a time when the Humber was new. This  describes victims of shell fire when the stretcher bearers (medics) were said to require a large basket in which to collect all the body parts.

This is typical of how I start a new project, a 1929 Singer Junior.

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

This one is/was a 1927 Dodge Four. When completed it was an 80+ mph Road/Track car.

Edited December 3, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[r1lark]

Great pics on some of your other cars Bernie. You definitely are a man that thrives on challenges!

 

I was also impressed at the engineering on the Humber hubs and caps, and still amazed that the collection of parts remained together all those years. For example, the special wrench that removes the caps -- not something you come across every day.

[oldcar]

Hello Again Paul

I too am impressed with the engineering to be found throughout the Humber. It is the first pre WW1 car I have owned and I find working on it fascinating. I find it interesting to see how they went about problem solving when these things were still in their formative years. Regarding the hub-cap wrench. While looking at it, it is a nice & simple solution to a tricky problem, the thought of having to design and make that from scratch is something else! 

It is details like this that continue to excite my imagination and continues to 'drive' me.

 

Bernie j.

[Landman]

On 11/29/2016 at 1:49 AM, oldcar said:

Thank you Pat. 

I am sorry Model Making is simply not for me. I don't have the skill or patience to make proper scale models and when it comes to gluing all those little bits of pastic together, forget it.

I have one very good friend with a room absolutely full of unfinished models and about  100+ unopended boxes of all sorts of kits.

Out in the garage he has an unfinished Lotus Europa, an unfinished Porsche, two unfinished Alfa Romeos, an unfinished Lagonda, in another garage he has an unfinished Jaguar and an unfinished Fornula Junior race car. I really don't know but there are sure to be some things that I don't know about. He is currently building an extension on his shed to house more unfinished cars that I don't know about. Oh yes! he lives in an unfinished house. He is a great guy but I would not want to be him.

I could never subscribe to your theory that "no one cares if it does not run". I have just proved that wrong. I care about my own project car and about when it will be finished so that I can drive it. I have always thought that is  why we restore cars, so we can drive them.

I don't really care what may be dozens of people reading this think.

 

I care! and that is what matters to me.

All too soon I will have finished my life  and then it will be too late. Below is just a small sample starting with a 1938 Morris 8hp built when I was 18 or 19 years old, 60 years ago! Believe it or not at that time the Morris was my every day transport.

 

Bernie j

What I meant here Bernie is no one cares if a scale model doesn't run. real cars is another story. I've just spent most of the summer getting my '34 Chevrolet to run the way I'd like it to.

 

On 11/29/2016 at 1:49 AM, oldcar said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldcar]

Hello Again,

I  am impressed with the engineering to be found throughout the Humber. It is the first pre WW1 car I have owned and I find working on it fascinating. I find it interesting to see how they went about problem solving when these things were still in their formative years.

For instance that hub-cap wrench. While looking at it, it is a nice & simple solution to a tricky problem, the thought of having to design and make that from scratch is something else! 

It is details like this that continue to excite my imagination and continue to 'drive' me.

While I appreciate the things that keep some other people busy and their minds active, model making is just not for me.  I guess as we all (well, at least some of us) are getting older, any activity is better that sitting doing nothing. This morning I plan to go to the local plant nursery to buy two or three Australian Native Plants to go into a neglected corner of the garden.

 

Bernie j.

Edited December 5, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[zipdang]

I'll bet you don't have any artfully rusty automobile relics with clever landscaping on display in your garden, do you?

[oldcar]

Hi Zipdang

Perhaps not in the way you meant but........

[oldcar]

Anyone recognise the Dodge Four differential back cover, or the Jaguar SS100 crank & flywheel, The brake discs and brake drums are probably VW. I am not sure what the slotted discs would have come from. In the first of the previous three pics there are some antique Agricultural implement wheels and a 1930's Austin rear axle. We have what is loosely termed a "Bush Garden" albeit in the heart of suburbia. Lots people around here are busy knocking down their 1990s houses and building "MacMansions" that cover the entire block. We live within walking distance of what is considered a "Desireable School" so almost every week we have  Real Estate Agents, knocking on the door wanting to sell out house. 

I cannot understand why walking distance is so important as none of the kids walk to school, they have mum drive them in a new Porsche or BMW suv.

Along our main business road we have a choice of Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, Fiat, Citroen, Jaguar, Land Rover, BMW & Mini, all within a kilometre or two. No common or garden cars! Or perhaps they are the common cars? You have to drive about 5 or 6 Kms to buy a new Bentley or a Ferrari!

We are the poor relations with just an old Peugeot and a VW Jetta.

We are also within walking distance to the Mosque. Fortunately we do not have the amplified "Call to prayer" four times a day, YET!

In the Shopping Malls and on Public Transport we play a game, "Spot the Aussie".......\

 

We do not encourage people to walk up or down our "drive". I tell people that we do not have third party personal insurance to cover people falling down. You simply cannot have smooth pathways and trees. We prefer the trees.

 

Bernie j  

Edited December 6, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[zipdang]

Ha! Those creations I like!

[oldcar]

Enough of all that. BACK TO THE HUMBER,

Local (Victoria, Aust.) Humber owner has sent me some photographs of the Humber drive shaft. Not that I am not grateful, I just wish I could see what is under the leather "boot" covering the rear one. There are two photographs of the front end of the shaft. One the original and the second a Hardy-Spicer conversion. I think that I may end up going down the (non-original) Hardy Spicer path.

 

Bj

[mike6024]

2 hours ago, oldcar said:

That looks like a sliding spline drive shaft without any splines. Or slip yoke I think it also may be called?

Edited December 7, 2016 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[oldcar]

It is a typical 1930-50s Hardy Spicer universal joint. The "cross" works in needle rollers. The sliding spines are nicely concealed under the parallel section, the screw on brass ring screws off to allow it to come apart. Look under any rear drive British classic car and you will find one or two.

I just happened to have one in stock so I can show you both ends. At the sliding end I have unscrewed the keeper ring so you can see the splines. Under normal conditions the splines are always enclosed to protect them from dirt and road grime. At the other end of the drive shaft, usually the rear, there is no sliding joint. The tubular drive shaft can be any one of a number of diameters. It is important that these drivge shafts are balanced to avoid any unpleasant vibrations. You can see balance weights spot welded to the tube at the rear end. It is also important to always assemble the splines correctly. You will often find matching arrows on the two parts of the sliding joint to ensure they are assembled with the right spline in the right groove. Again incorrect assembly can cause vibrations that may be felt through the entire car.  I have known people to spend quite a lot of time and money trying to locate the source of "mystery vibrations".

 

Bj

Edited December 7, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Basically it is a machining operation, The two "loops have to be machined off the back of the foot brake (transmission) drum and an adaptor turned up. At the rear end all that is required is a new adaptor with a taper to match that on the pinion and a plate to accept the four bolts to connect the universal joint. I will try to find time (Perhaps not before Christmas) to draw up the adaptors for both ends. I can then have one of my friendly machinists turn them up. This needs to be deep (thick) enough to accomodate the end of the pinion and the retaining nut. If you look at the one on the car with the red chassis (above) It is not overly complicated but time consuming. I believe Phil Diffey in the UK has a similar "Hardy-Spicer" conversion on one of his Humbers.

 

Bj

Edited December 7, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Mike

I think that you may have been about 30 seconds too quick.

 

Bj

[oldcar]

Hello

Work on the Humber has been put on the back burner for a little while. I have discovered that I have a far more pressing job.

 

Happy Christmas?

 

Bernie j.

Edited December 12, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[dalef62]

I jumped down to the thread you have on the Lagonda Rapier to see why you had pulled the head.  You are probably right about the bad petrol.  Hope you have it up and running soon.  The Humber will wait patiently till you are done with the Lagonda Rapier. 

[oldcar]

Hello Mike

I have yet to look closely at the valves but they should be OK. The tops of the pistons were ceramic coated or it would have been a whole lot worse. My main worry is that most of the automotive trade shuts up shop for the whole of January in Australia. The pistons are very special with off-set crowns so you cannot buy them from your local spare parts shop. They are special forged pistons that suit just one motor. To take the bore from 61.5mm(1100cc) to 73mm(1500cc) was not just a simple matter of making bigger holes. A whole lot of extra work but in terms of added performance and longer (touring) legs well worth the trouble.

Perhaps I should not have sold my 66 mm(1232cc) block but that was a long time ago. Last heard of it was in Canada.

Bj.