1912 Humber

[jp928 31]

Bernie,

This pic shows the diff joint on my Rover9 moderately well - the shaft going in is just round, but it lookes like it has 2 trunnions inside the split joint, which is bolted to the diff input flange. I suspect that your Humber had something similar. The prop shaft has a taper with keyway at both ends, the front with a 3 finger fabric UJ to the gearbox, the rear with cross pins fitting into the joint below, similar to one of your drive shafts. Let me know if you would like a closer pic.

john

Edited November 10, 2016 by jp928 (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

Hello John

Thank you for your interest. I am still not sorry that I did not buy your Rover when I had the chance to. I have just finished a 60minute terlephone conversation with an old friend. He has Austin Sevenitus  and keeps telling me why I should have another Austin. I tell him that it took owning about a dozen over a period of years to realise how bad they are. My problem is that I keep buying cars that have up until now escaped me only to discover that every make has their own inbuilt vice. I must have looked at three or four early Rovers but I really wanted a two wheel brake. I have this "thing about early cars with no front brakes...........

I keep telling myself that the Humber has to be the last "old car" I restore. Having spent an hour or two yestreday afternoon, lying on my back removing the con-rods from the Humber I now have some idea what the engine needs. (A total rebuild)

Going back to John I am sure that some where I have the remains of the rear coupling. I need the time to go back through  a thousand or so photographs to find it. Having found the photograph all I then need to do is find the coupling.

Sorry John,  there I go wandering off again... Thank you for your continued interest, 

It is amazing how quickly old age kicks in once you turn 80!

 

Bernie J.

Edited November 11, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

Absolutely amazing. I knew I had taken a photograph not all that long ago. Now I need to remember what I did with the parts. There should (of course) be some other bits that go with it.

 

Bj.

Edited November 11, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Stude17 90]

Oldcar here are the photos of a 1916 Studebaker setup which is basically the same as your Humber. Sorry for the delay.

[unimogjohn 197]

Bernie, do you have a complete set of engine pictures that you can post?  And its specifications?

Edited November 11, 2016 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

Hello John

I am just in the middle of stripping down the engine. It is about 80% in pieces (and a mess). I have to decide just how far I want/need to go in rebuilding it.

General consensus is that it would be a waste of money having the crank pins reground and new white metal big end bearings done.

In the past I would have done the whole thing but it seems difficult to justify spending $20/25,000 on the motor of a $7/10,000 car  and that would be just for the motor, there is still tyres, the body, trim, paint, plating etc etc,  how and where do you stop. The Humber is a rare car but it is not a Bugatti, Bentley or even a Rolls Royce. I guess that if I thought about it, I would end up doing nothing  but where is the FUN in that? Now that I have actually turned 80 I have to think how much time is left and what do I want to do in that time? I will try to find some photos for you. I can tell you that it is, 4 cylinder, side valve, fixed head, two main bearings, cast iron block and aluminium crankcase. 1750cc. Magneto ignition, NO electric starter or generator.  Three speed gearbox, cone clutch, foot brake on drum behind the gearbox, hand brake on rear wheels. 

All the "experts" tell me to do the body and cosmetics first then worry about the motor. They tell me "Nobody wants the drive these cars, if they had to crank start it they simply would not bother! As long as it "looks" OK then it is OK.

 

What do the people reading this think?

 

Bernie j.

[JV Puleo 2,729]

I think that attitude is the main reason I've lost interest in virtually all "car clubs". Those folks should just collect models and leave the real cars to those who will use them.

 

As to crank starting... if it takes any real effort at all to start an engine that small, whoever "rebuilt" it - or "tuned" it, didn't know their a-- from a hole in the ground.

 

(edit) Earlier this summer I was looking at a fabulously restored, big brass car (recently purchased for something in the area of 1 million dollars) with a friend who is the owner of some equally impressive brass cars. My friend is getting on in years now but his knowledge of the brass car world is encyclopedic. He said to me, a bit under his breath, "I wouldn't trust it to go 1000 yards down the road." There are a lot of "restored" early cars that are a cosmetic gloss on worn out machinery. This is the product of just the attitude your experts reflect.

Edited November 12, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

Thank you JV

That makes just two of us against the world. I will almost certainly do one of my "normal" restorations on the Humber. My problem is that I am still unable to change the habits of a life time. My attitude to "the Experts" is very similar to JV's. Perhaps that is why my circle of (genuine) friends keeps getting smaller and why my interest in attending Car Club meetings has all but disappeared. When I am "gone" there will be very few people notice but I will be beyond caring.

 

For Unimog John,

Here are todays photographs of the engine.

 

Bj.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[JV Puleo 2,729]

You are welcome, Bernie.

I was certain we were on the same page here. That said, aside from the main bearings and the crank, there are probably many ways to minimize the cost of a rebuild... maybe to 90% of new, without breaking the bank. You're probably in for a rebore, if that wasn't done if only because these early cars, without air filters, almost always have badly worn bores but it may be possible to find a piston that will work without the expense of having them made. That goes for valves as well. I see it has a silent chain drive for the camshaft... if those parts are badly worn there are alternatives there as well. I'd love to see some photos of the engine parts when you've finished tearing it down, I may have some worthwhile suggestions.

 

Cheers,

 

jp

Edited November 12, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[zipdang 376]

Hello. Up to this point, I've been a silent observer of all your activities. I  had to chime in here because I've always found it sad to look at a beautiful vintage car only to find out that the beauty was only skin deep due to either updated or non-working mechanicals. A big part of the history (for me, anyway) is seeing the engineering and technology of the era represented. Thank you, Bernie. Oh, and please forgive my past silence!

[oldcar 577]

Hello zipdang.

All is forgiven. I guess that we all have our own agenda that we work to. I could never claim to be a "purist" but I do enjoy working on my cars and have always thought that the end product of that work is to be able to enjoy driving in them. The simple task of working on old cars I find extremely satisfying in it's own way. To be able to solve some of the problems that are thrown up is often more than enough. To appreciate how the original designers and builders went about their respective tasks is quite fascinating to me.

 

Bj.

[jp928 31]

Bernie,

This pic shows the diff joint on my Rover9 moderately well - the shaft going in is just round, but it lookes like it has 2 trunnions inside the split joint, which is bolted to the diff input flange. I suspect that you Humber had something similar. The prop shaft has a taper with keyway at both ends, the front with a 3 finger fabric UJ to the gearbox, the rear with cross pins fitting into the joint below, similar to one of your drive shafts. Let me know if you would like a closer pic.

john

[jp928 31]

Bernie,

A bit surprised at your estimate for an engine rebuild being so high. FWIW here are some numbers from my Rover's rebuild history, admittedly 25 years old now, but still....Dont know anything of the builder's reputation, as they are no long visible - Veteran and Vintage Engines of Bayswater, and Javco Engineering of Mulgrave, mostly..

Engine - strip, bore, remettal rods and mains, grind crank, reprofile cam, followers, reco head, new valves and guides, new pistons, timing chains, refurb starter, generator and magneto, waterpump - $3081.

Gearbox and clutch - $1650

Tailshaft - $1770

Diff rebuild (new wormwheel) - $2414

 

The engine runs well (might be first time run since rebuild?), very good oil pressure.

These are from receipts dated 1991-93. Have prices gone up that much?

 

john

 

[oldcar 577]

OK the "Imagined price" for an engine rebuild is on the high side although I suspect that things have changed dramatically since 1991.

 

I have used Crankshaft Rebuilders for my engine work for a very long time.

I know with their work, once the engine is back in the chassis you do not need to think about it except for normal maintenance AND use the car for some VERY hard motoring. The photo of the Rapier and myself is not some artistic studio confection.

Normaly I prefer to do my own final assembly.

It will be interesting to see some estimated costings for the same work today. Just don't hold your breath!

As I can now officially consider myself "old" I will allow myself some extra time for the Humber restoration. "say" two or even three years. The question is how many of you will still be around to check on me? Meanwhile I will attempt to obtain some estimates on the cost in 2017 to rebuild a simple four cylinder engine. Going back to JP's costings it is my understanding that you cannot get a "proper" Magneto rebuild including a re-wind for very much under $3,000. Even then do not expect to get a guarantee.

Bj.

Edited November 13, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[falconriley 7]

Hello Bernie

Going by what I paid for the machining and parts on my Riley 12/4 motor a couple of years ago I would say about $5000 will see it out. A couple of local Riley RM rebuilds in the last year have been a similar price.

I now sometimes wonder if everything  does have to be new, as I have seen a few engines recently that operated surprisingly well given their condition. Last Nine magneto was $650, but unfortunately the rebuilder is no longer with us to do more. Check where the local aircraft have their magnetos rebuilt, as these have to be certified.

Matthew

[oldcar 577]

Hello Matthew

When I first rebuilt the Rapier in 1978/9 I did a conversion to coil ignition. I have since done over 100,000 miles and apart from replacing contacts and condensers have not had any ignition based problems. I will retain the magneto for the Humber but that is a little way down the track.

 

Bj.

[zipdang 376]

18 hours ago, oldcar said:

As I can now officially consider myself "old" I will allow myself some extra time for the Humber restoration. "say" two or even three years. The question is how many of you will still be around to check on me?

You're a lot younger than many folks half your age. I'm not going to stop watching now after following for so long!

[JV Puleo 2,729]

$3000 for a magneto rebuild sounds drastically high to me... perhaps an 8 cylinder Scintilla for an airplane but not a garden variety 4 for an automobile. Keep in mind that they were all bought out and people changed them regularly so using another mag, of proper size, should be quite acceptable to all but the purest of the pure. The makers of car used the cheapest mag they could buy and I don't feel any compunction about changing it for one with a much better reputation (and that is more easily rebuilt).

 

And... some mags can be converted to run as a conventional coil ignition. PM me and I'll tell you how. The worst problem is that will be no charging system, something you wouldn't have encountered with the Rapier.

Edited November 14, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

Try looking at the Magneto "experts" based in the UK with advertising on the internet.

My coil & distributor conversion on the Rapier uses a standard Lucas generator end plate complete with 90 degree  drive and a Bosch distributor. The Bosch distributor replaces a period Lucas one. It was the smallest distributor available at the time. Under the bonnet of the Rapier can be a little crowded. Tim Ashcroft, the designer of the Rapier engine, hated (rubber) belt drives so all the engine accessories are gear driven. The generator is driven at  engine speed from the side of the timing gears. The distributor is driven from the rear of the generator by a pair of 2 : 1 bevel gears. The electric fan is controled by a thermo switch with a sensor in the top water outlet at the front of the cylinder head. The oil pump is driven from the front of the triple sprocket for the camshaft drive chains. This oil pump set up is a modification designed by a Register member. It uses a Mini Cooper oil pump. At the operating temparature 30-40 degrees 'C' Oil Pressure is around 35 - 40 psi at idle speed (900  rpm) and runs between 60 and 80 psi at 2,500/3,500 rpm. 3,200 rpm  in top gear = 100kph (56 mph) The relief valve is set to 80psi. On it's present stage of tune, the motor develops approx 70 bhp and has "bags" of torque from 1,750 rpm. The rear axle (cwp) is 4.75:1.  Wheels are 17 inch with 500 x 17 Michelin "Super-comfort" tyres. These are designed to run at 20psi.   All this  has been set up with high speed touring and especially Alpine driving in mind. The engine runs to 6,000 rpm and is very happy at 3,500-4000 rpm.

 

Bj.

Edited November 14, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

PrevNext

 

The result of extensive research allowing the tyre to operate at even lower pressure and a slower rate of wear. 

Michelin offered a very low-pressure tyre, called “Superconfort”, in 1932, then launched “Superconfort Stop S” in 1935.

The first tyre with a heavily siped tread pattern, specially designed for wet surfaces. The recommended running pressure is 20 psi.

Edited November 14, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

As the Lagonda Rapier was introduced in July 1934 and my car was first registered to F.W. Morgan in Cardiff (Wales, UK) on June 8th 1935 It  would have been possible for it to be fitted with Michelin Supercomfort tyres when new.

 

Bj.

Edited November 14, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar 577]

BACK TO THE HUMBER.

I must stop myself from wandering off along side tracks.

Work is actually progressing with the crank case now empty of crankshaft, camshaft etc and ready to make a visit to my friends at Crankshaft rebuilders.

Edited November 15, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter 157]

On 11/12/2016 at 5:25 PM, oldcar said:

Hello John

I am just in the middle of stripping down the engine. It is about 80% in pieces (and a mess). I have to decide just how far I want/need to go in rebuilding it.

General consensus is that it would be a waste of money having the crank pins reground and new white metal big end bearings done.

In the past I would have done the whole thing but it seems difficult to justify spending $20/25,000 on the motor of a $7/10,000 car  and that would be just for the motor, there is still tyres, the body, trim, paint, plating etc etc,  how and where do you stop. The Humber is a rare car but it is not a Bugatti, Bentley or even a Rolls Royce. I guess that if I thought about it, I would end up doing nothing  but where is the FUN in that? Now that I have actually turned 80 I have to think how much time is left and what do I want to do in that time? I will try to find some photos for you. I can tell you that it is, 4 cylinder, side valve, fixed head, two main bearings, cast iron block and aluminium crankcase. 1750cc. Magneto ignition, NO electric starter or generator.  Three speed gearbox, cone clutch, foot brake on drum behind the gearbox, hand brake on rear wheels. 

All the "experts" tell me to do the body and cosmetics first then worry about the motor. They tell me "Nobody wants the drive these cars, if they had to crank start it they simply would not bother! As long as it "looks" OK then it is OK.

 

What do the people reading this think?

 

Bernie j.

 

What do I think?

 

I look forward to seeing your car driving around Doncaster East

[oldcar 577]

I have now delivered the main engine components to "Crankies", it will probably be early 2017 before they get to look at it but it is in the queue. 

I still have the camshaft on my bench as I have to discover why the front bearing is extremely tight. 

"hidden hunter" I would not hold my breath while waiting for the Humber to drive past. If you live in the East Doncaster area you are more likely to be familiar with the Lagonda Rapier.

Bj.

 

A hour or two later having washed the camshaft off with some degreaser. It seems as though that front cam bearing was stuck due to a build up of old oil & grease that had dried out to a super sticky mess. Washed off and the cam spins nice and freely in its bearing. One less thing for me to "worry" about. I have also wire-brushed the flywheel with a "cup" wire brush on my angle grinder and cleaned up the surface of the cone for the clutch with some fine emery cloth. I now have to decide if I paint the flywheel, which is totally exposed or leave it as bare metal as It has been for the last 100+ years

 

Bj.

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter 157]

7 hours ago, oldcar said:

I have now delivered the main engine components to "Crankies", it will probably be early 2017 before they get to look at it but it is in the queue. 

I still have the camshaft on my bench as I have to discover why the front bearing is extremely tight. 

"hidden hunter" I would not hold my breath while waiting for the Humber to drive past. If you live in the East Doncaster area you are more likely to be familiar with the Lagonda Rapier.

 

 

My girlfriend lives in the East Doncaster area (near the Dan Murphey's) so I'll be on the look out