1912 Humber

[Luv2Wrench]

It is looking good Bernie, I really like that green.  The mismatch of parts in a basket case does make things a bit more challenging.  I've run into the same problem as well.  One would think that since the previous owner had gone to such trouble as to acquire/keep a group of parts that those parts would actually be for the car.   I'm very close to painting my frame as well now that I've completed the wood work.  I wish Metz used the same plates for securing the springs because my search for period correct square u-bolts hasn't been going very well.  I'm going to use some standard square u-bolts and worry with forging something that looks more correct later.  The time to get the car done has arrived.

 

[JV Puleo]

Many of us suffer from that problem. My car came with a set of 4 jugs from a 1908–1909 Mitchell that, presumably, were purchased for the valve cages.... except the earlier car had 4 exhaust manifold ports and the 1910–1911 car had two, so while they are superficially similar, they are not interchangeable.

[oldcar]

6 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

 The time to get the car done has arrived.

 

Hello Jeff

While I too endeavour to use if not the correct then an apropriate period part but at the same time we must acknowledge that over 100 years have past since these cars were built. If they are ever to be finished some compromises must inevitably be used. In 50 years the Humber has passed through at least four sets of owners hands without progressing past having the chassis and wheels sand blasted and prime coated and some unfinished mechanical work started. To be completely fair, one can only presume that the earlier owners were all absolute purists and were unable to progress without comprimising their ideals.

Ok in another 100 years time what is more important? Without going overboard, I believe that a restored and going car is far better than a truck load of unassembled "original" bits.

My 1934 Lagonda Rapier is much the same, it now runs coil ignition rather than the original magneto, the conversion uses all period parts and to the casual observer the car appears to be "original". Right now we are  planing a 2,000 kilometer interstate trip in the car, something I would be very reluctant to do with the original magneto. While perhaps not undertaking a trip of this magnitude in the Humber, I certainly will want to drive it when it is finished.

 

In a glass case, or even behind a velvet covered rope, in a museum; no one could see if even the car was complete or if it was 100% as it left the factory. 90% of the visitors to a museum would not know either way.

 

Bernie j.

[r1lark]

11 hours ago, oldcar said:

While I too endeavour to use if not the correct then an apropriate period part but at the same time we must acknowledge that over 100 years have past since these cars were built. If they are ever to be finished some compromises must inevitably be used. In 50 years the Humber has passed through at least four sets of owners hands without progressing past having the chassis and wheels sand blasted and prime coated and some unfinished mechanical work started. To be completely fair, one can only presume that the earlier owners were all absolute purists and were unable to progress without comprimising their ideals.

Ok in another 100 years time what is more important? Without going overboard, I believe that a restored and going car is far better than a truck load of unassembled "original" bits.

Bernie j.

 

You are a wise man Bernie, and I absolutely agree with you.

[oldcar]

Thank you Paul

I only hope that I can live up to your expectations. I have just returned from collecting the correct front wheel bearings from my friends at AA. While I was out I thought that I should take the precaution of buying a die-nut to clean up the threads of the outer ends of the stub axle and drove the three or four miles extra but being rather pre-occupied I failed to get two new nuts and washers so that I could do the job properly. Very rusty 104 year old nuts while "ok" really should be replaced. I don't know but I had expected that these would have been left hand thread on one side and a finer BSF or even Cycle Engineers thread profile but both sides are simply good old BSW (Whitworth) but this may have been changed by a frustrated "bush" mechanic at some time in the distant past. Either way that is what is there now and it cannot be changed. I have previously come across horribly butchered threads on stub axles. At least with the Humber both sides are the same.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

Today I am really doubting my wisdom, Having spent two or probably there days sorting out new ball bearings and fitting up the front hubs I have discovered the first time I went to put a wheel on that Good ole Bill (Humber) made two different length front hubs. With the shorter (less than 1 inch) hubs the screw on hub caps that retain the wheels do not quite reach the threaded section of the hub. After some searching I have found the I do have a pair of the longer hubs the only problem was that one was firmly rusted into the centre of a wheel. After applying heat, soaking in penetrating oil and placing it under a 50 ton press it just moved after 30 ton pressure was applied. Next thing is to clean up this pair then hopefully but unlikely they will use the same bearings.  What is that saying about one step forward two steps back. First job is to extract the screw in brass, felt oil seal housing.  Then hopefully I may be able to extract the bearings. 

It has taken all of three hours and I now have the brass oilseal housing out to the rear of both hubs. Sadly i will now have to find a modern seal to replace them. There is no way they could possibly go back in again. Let me just say that they had been in place for a very long time and were very reluctant to move. Next trick will be to remove the cones from the original taper roller bearings.  I would think that it is very possible that they have not been disturbed in all of 104 years. The alternative is to weld 1 inch wide rings onto the threaded section of the shorter caps and cut a new thread into this. Any other suggestions?

 

Bj

Edited September 15, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[OnSafari]

Thanks for posting your progress Bernie. I was just wondering if you had seen the 1912 Humber for sale in the UK, certainly the photos would make a good reference, see link below:

 

http://www.vandp.net/sales/495/1912-humber-11hp-tourer/

 

Cheers

Lyndon

[oldcar]

Thank you Lyndon

That one has been for sale for some time and it is as you say a good reference. It is a four seater and my car will have a two seat version of the same body. There

are one or two things that I will do differently.

 

The saga of the Humber front hubs continues. It now turns out that there were two different lengths of the front hubs, there being 1 inch or 25mm difference between the long  version and the short. Previously I had cleaned up and bought new sealed ball bearings to suit the shorter hubs. The problem is that these are too short for the hub cap to reach the thread.This is necessary to secure the wheel. I have now discovered that I only have one serviceable “long” hub but I do have a second one that has a good thread but the flange on the back of the hub is damaged. (See photos)

What I  think now needs to be done is to turn the thread section down on the short hubs to create a spigot. The threaded section plus an extra 1 inch (25mm) must be cut off two long hubs (ie the one with the damaged flange plus one other) and the blank (inner) end machined on the inside diameter to match the spigot.  The two sections of each hub should then  be pressed together and nickel-bronge welded. I have suggested that my  son Steve, being a much better machinist than I am, do the turning using his big lathe and he will do the bronze welding. He suggests nickel-bronze rather than mig welding because of the age and unknown nature of the material. I have a little time to think about this as Steve with be extremely busy over the next fourteen days (2 weeks).

 

In the mean time I have plenty of other things to be doing. Among other things I can cogitate at length on the "Joys or otherwise of restoring old cars".

 

Bj.

Edited September 16, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That looks like a straight forward, albeit time consuming job. Were I doing it, I'd turn the flange on the broken hub down to a diameter perhaps 1/4"larger than the OD of the hub where it passes through the wheel – then thread the thickness of the flange. It wouldn't make much difference what the thread was as long as it was fine enough to get 3 or 4 full turns. Then I'd cut the flange off the other hub – or just make a new one – and bore and thread that to screw on to the hub, using the hub as a threading gage. The thread could even be a tiny bit loose. Then I would braze it together. I'd have a lot more confidence in that than either a welded joint or a brazed one where the press fit has to be so short. The threads will help hold it together and probably quadruple the surface brazed surface. If you made a new flange, thicker than the original, it could be faced off after the brazing so that the surfaces are absolutely perpendicular to the hub.

[oldcar]

 

Hello JV

A very good idea but unfortunately a little too late. I cut the nose off the broken flange hub yesterday afternoon with a cut-off blade in my angle grinder to make it a  little easier to handle. I have always been impetuous by nature so it looks as though I may be committed.Thinking about this I may really need only repair the second long hub which is damaged at the the threaded end. I need to sit down quietly and assess my options. I have time to do this as mentioned above my son Steve is tied up with his business over the next 12-14 days. I have plenty of other things to work on all of which would have been easier with the chassis on four wheels but I have discovered over the years, that versatility is one of the first requirements in any restoration project.

Back to work! First job is to drive the cones for the taper roller bearings out of both long hubs. Then I can start tidying up my work space shifting some bulky stuff out into a garden shed There is a lot of "Humber stuff" that I may not ever use but I am reluctant to throw out just yet, Things that have ben following the car around for years and years but will never be of either use or value. Do I really need to keep a broken diff housing for instance,that is apart from sentimental reasons. It certainly is not repairable and is of no value as scrap metal. The amount I  was paid for the last load I took to the scrap merchant would not have covered the cost of the petrol used to take it there.

 

Bj

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Having been rushing around in small circles and up and down blind alleys I have solved the problem of the front hubs. It turns out that I have had two of the correct (long) hubs in good useable condition all along. The second one had been placed in a storage bin on a different shelf. This one has the thread for the hubcaps in excellent condition and I have even managed to persuade the brass oil seal housing to unscrew without damaging it. All this means is another trip to AA Bearings to obtain two sets of taper roller wheel bearings and some sheet felt suitable for the oil seal. With all this in place it should be only a mornings work to have the front wheels fitted into place and I will be able to move along to the next task. Life could be so much easier with even a fraction more space, but having lived in the same house with the same garage space and the same good woman to look after me for over 50 years, I don't look like changing anytime soon. 

 

Bernie j.

[oldcar]

Nothing ever seems to go exactly to plan. I have finally collected the fourth bearing and 2 modern oil seals to-day. Being school end of term holidays we have five Grand-children staying with us so they tend to take first priority. Last night the Lagonda & I took part in some crowd scenes for a Chinese Film based on the 1930s being filmed in and around Melbourne. Lots of standing around, what seemed like dozens of technicians and very little actual filming.

This time, hopefully, I will get the humber chassis standing on four wheels. While just a start it  will have progressed further than at any time in the past 50 or 60 years.

 

Bj.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Looking good Bernie.  It is quite a thrill to bring something back to life after years of being just parts collected in boxes. 

 

[oldcar]

Thank you Dale, 

It is that which keeps me alive, hopefully for a little longer yet. Having to use both your hands and brain is much more fun than sitting in a fog, not knowing who or where you are. I see too many of my friends going this way. Growing old can still be fun!

 

Bj.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

3 hours ago, oldcar said:

Thank you Dale, 

It is that which keeps me alive, hopefully for a little longer yet. Having to use both your hands and brain is much more fun than sitting in a fog, not knowing who or where you are. I see too many of my friends going this way. Growing old can still be fun!

 

Bj.

 

 Amen, Bernie, Amen.

 

  Ben

[oldcar]

Thank you Ben

Here is one just for you.

 

Bj.

[maok]

Ol' mate, they look like very low profile tyres...:)

[oldcar]

Hello Moe

It is the new invisible white walls that are fooling you. I get them from the same store that the Emperor got his new clothes from. 

 

Bj

Edited September 24, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[OnSafari]

You would have to be tempted to offer up the radiator. This a fascinating restoration as you have never seen the "whole" together, and it is slowly revealing itself.

 

Fantastic work.

[oldcar]

You are quite correct in thinking that I have never seen another Humber "in the flesh" but I have a lot of photographs. I have a lot to do before "trial fitting" the radiator. I think next I will fit the crankcase into the chassis. Still have to sort out valves before fitting the block. I can then look at the clutch and gearbox. sorting out the drive shaft is going to be the next difficult bit. As Moak pointed out, I need to start saving up enough money to buy tires. Unfortunately Walmart do not sell these. The attached photograph is of the same year and model as my car.

Having spent all his money on the optional extra Lights, Horn and Hood (top) and an extra spare tire this owner had run out of cash and choose to give the optional extra Wind-screen a miss.

 

Bj.

Edited September 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[maok]

Try a push bike shop for tyres...:)

[oldcar]

Thanks Moe,

I just wish it was that easy. I have advertised in a number of places:-Wanted to Buy Used 810 X 90 Beaded edge (Clincher) Tires suitable to stand resto project on and have yet to receive any answers. I do not want to buy new tires as yet as it will be some time before the car will be ready to roll.

There are quite a number of things I will need before tires and they will be a major investment. I have seen a lot of people buy tires before they were ready to use them, only to find by the time to fit them came, they had become so hard that they were useless.

If it will make you feel any better I can simply take off the wheels and put the car back on jack stands.

You seem to have missed the whole point, This the first time in 50-60 YEARS since the chassis stood on its wheels. If you missed them before the photographs below shows how the car was when I bought it. It had been taken apart in the 1960s, very possibly before you were born

 

Bj

Edited September 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[maok]

I was kidding mate about the bike shop, seeing how the Humber wheels look so much like a bike wheel.

However, giving it another thought, if you only want them for moving the chassis around the shed, it's not such a bad idea.

The right size bike tyre with a tube may just do the job at a reasonable cost.

 

The colour you have chosen is very similar to my 28 Chrysler colour.

 

I am sure you have a huge smile on your face from getting this amazing project to this stage. You will definitely be getting toey as you progress along because it will look so much like a real car from now on. I admire your skills, determination, and enthusiasm.

 

[oldcar]

Hello Moe

I have sent you a pm.Good idea but I doubt that there are any bicycle tyres that would stretch over a 32 in (810mm) wheel.

 

Bj.

Edited September 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Jim Bourque]

Bernie

You could cut some plywood sheets into big discs the same diameter as your wheels with tires, spigot hole and bolt holes to fit your hubs. Should be strong enough to roll the Humber around your shop and you won't have to worry about messing them up or your wire rims.

 

Jim 

[oldcar]

Thank you Jim

That is a very good Idea I will have to think about it. Once I install the engine into the chassis It can go back onto jack stands for a while. If I can get rid of those wire crates I will have some more room to move around the car.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

I have now temporarily fitted the gearbox in the chassis. With it bolted down it is easier than chasing it around the floor, It takes up too much space and tends to slide around on my work bench. I would hate to have it fall off (the bench) and I can take the parts that have to be cleaned & painted while it is in place. 

 

Bj

Edited September 29, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Looking a lot like a car now.   Very smart idea to bolt those things on the frame. One of my biggest fears is knocking one the the irreplaceable castings off my workbench and I've come pretty close to it a couple of times.  

[oldcar]

Hello Jeff

One of the problems I have is that I am working in a confined space and try as I might I never seem to have enough places to store "stuff" added to that I am probably reluctant to throw things away. All too often I need something that I have consigned to the bin the day before. My other problem with the Humber is that very often I am not sure what I am looking for until after I have found it!Todays Problem is typical, At some time in the future I will need the other half of the magneto drive. I am familiar with the typical Simm's Vernier coupling but in 60 years of playing with old cars I have not previously come across one like this, I need the female half to mount onto the magneto (when I get one). The correct magneto for the Humber is an early (1912) Eisemann. Has anyone got either a coupling or an early Eisemann 4 cylinder magneto?.

 

Bernie j.

Edited September 30, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

For all those wondering about the magneto coupling

Peter Wilcox of the Humber Register in the UK has sent me the following photographs. If you look closely the teeth in the two offset rows in the outer band are staggered to allow for very fine timing adjustment. Once the timing is set the band is locked in place by tightening the screw.

All I need to do now is to find an outer band and the Mag gear. If you have one lying in a container with other odd bits & pieces; Please let me know. If it is already attached to an early Eisemann 4 cylinder Magneto  even better.No matter where you live, I can send a courier to your doorstep to collect it, so you don't even have worry about taking it to the Post-office. How easy is that? I can pay you "PayPal" or even send cash.  

 

Bernie j

Edited October 2, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I have just taken a few days away from the Humber to do a service on the 1934 Lagonda Rapier. new spark plugs, distributor points and condenser. We are taking a few days to attend a Rally in north central New South Wales (Australia) with a stop-over at Dubbo. I estimate that we will drive (in the Rapier) approximately 2,000 to 2,500 miles by the time we arrive home again in 2 weeks time. We leave on next Tuesday a.m. Today the postman very kindly brought a parcel from Classic Fasteners in South Australia with 2 dozen 5/16 BSF set screws 1.5inches long. These are to secure the clutch cover some time soon. 
Going back to that service on the Lagonda, I opted to go one number hotter for the spark plugs as it will still be chilly in the mornings. Straight away it is starting from cold better and without wetting the plugs or misbehaving. For the benefit of anyone who understands these things, I have gone from NGK BP8ES to BP7ES. These are still a comparatively "cold" plug. With both Bosch & Champion the spark plugs become hotter as the numbers go up while with NGK they go the other way.

 

Bj.

Edited October 6, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Back on the Humber front as soon as we return from the Geo Green Rally  I have to sort out the inverted tooth timing chain and the right hand rear hub, then I can move onto the next item on the agenda. The problem right now is that I do not know what it will be but I am sure that it will not be too long before it becomes apparent. These things have a habit of falling into line.

 

Bj.

Edited October 6, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Before we dash off on our interstate journey in the Lagonda Rapier I felt that what better way to spend a very windy Sunday afternoon than taking the Humber apart  some more. I have ben unhappy about the "tight spot' when attempting to turn the engine over by rotating the flywheel. While I still have not completely discovered the reason I am getting closer. I have now removed the sump and I have discovered some worrying things although hopefully I can now rectify them. The first is the obsession that some people have with black silicone gasket "stuff". Used in moderation if is probably ok as a short term fix BUT there is no need to use the whole tube on the one job. Too much and it squashed out to form a bead alonside the joint. If this is on the outside it can be cleaned off but when it squishes out on the inside of an engine the betting is that eventually it will come loose to form a long evil looking black catapiller which will float about in the insides of the engine or what ever, eventually it will find its way into an oilway and then in time block it, usually with disasterous results. 

 

The next thing that came to my attention is that who ever put the engine together needs a good spanking.

Oh goody! he put in some new big end bolts!  The problem is that they were too long so he filled the space with a nice thick spring spring washer which allowed him to tighten up the nut the only problem being was that the hole drilled for a split pin was a couple of threads below the castleations in the nut. "Ho Well!" he thought, "I will do the right thing and put in a split pin". The only problem is that it that where it is it is absolutely useless! What all this is telling me, is that whether I wanted to or not, when we return home I am going to totally strip the engine and then having rectified the problems I can start to very carefully re-assemble it. It is a good thing that I have absolutely no mechanical qualifications!  I cannot charge myself the $100-150 per hour that the professionals ask. Then again there is no way I would ever dream of doing work like what has been done on the Humber before I bought it. No wonder the person I bought it from gave up, "Because the small amount of work he had done had cost him so much!"  Oh yes! the engine had been very nicely washed off on the outside, I won't bore you with the details of what it was like inside.

 

Bernie j.

Edited October 10, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

                                                       

 

 Bj.380

Edited October 10, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I seriously doubt that most people can tell the difference between schlock work and good work... If one of the previous owners paid someone to rebuild it, then he probably thought it was rebuilt. If they did it themselves, they just didn't know what they were doing. I've seen some VERY bad work done on a brass-era engine by a man who had been in the engine rebuilding business for 50 years and enjoyed an excellent reputation... it was the only job like that I ever sent out and determined that I'd have to learn how to do it myself.

[oldcar]

Hello JV

The further I look the worst it gets, I am starting to wonder if the same person did the "very expensive rebuild" on the rear axle too. I can see that ultimately I will look at everything just to be sure. 

 

Bj

Edited October 10, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[maok]

They obviously used the ' She'll be right mate!' technique.

[oldcar]

Hello Moak

Somehow I don't think that they even got that far, It is more like "rough enough is good enough" or "'ll be orite on the die, mite!" 

 

Bj

Edited October 10, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

What I ran into was "It's only going to be carried around on a trailer."

I'm not saying anything in defense of such work... It annoys me so much that I've accumulated my own machine shop and taught myself how to do things right. But, sadly, the attitude that things need to be put right – and the knowledge as to what is right, is rare. I'm afraid it's rare for many of the so-called professionals as well.

 

A doctor friend once made a comment to me that I think may apply here... that "the average person has no way of assessing a doctor's qualifications so they presume that the most expensive must be the best." substitute "mechanic" for "doctor" and you've the root of much wretched work.

Edited October 10, 2016 by JV Puleo
added to (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

49 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

What I ran into was "It's only going to be carried around on a trailer."

I'm not saying anything in defense of such work... It annoys me so much that I've accumulated my own machine shop and taught myself how to do things right. But, sadly, the attitude that things need to be put right – and the knowledge as to what is right, is rare. I'm afraid it's rare for many of the so-called professionals as well.

 

A doctor friend once made a comment to me that I think may apply here... that "the average person has no way of assessing a doctor's qualifications so they presume that the most expensive must be the best." substitute "mechanic" for "doctor" and you've the root of much wretched work.

 

This is so true and the implications are as much scary as they are sad.