Buicknutty Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Glad to hear that it is running now! Looking forward to seeing the video! Happy New Year to All! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Trying to get this distributor timed exactly when I cannot see the timing mark on the flywheel. I figured out a pretty good way to find TDC without depending on the flywheel marks. Look at the valves for cylinder 8, the sister cylinder to number 1. Because 1 and 8 pistons go up and down at the same time as each other, but 180 degrees apart in the cycle, you can look at the valves on 8 and stop cranking he engine exactly in between the time that the exhaust valve closes and the intake valve opens. If you can get the exact midway point, then you know you are at TDC for cylinder 1. Now rotate the distributor until you get to the exact spot that the point gap starts to open for the spark for cylinder 1, and tighten the distributor. Is this true, does this make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I don't know if your theory holds water, but I am wondering why you would not follow the information in your manual that you have already posted here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Morgan, another, almost fail proof way , is with a vacuum gauge. Hook the gauge to a vacuum source. The connection on the intake manifold for the wipers is good. let the car idle until warm enough to be smooth. Adjust the dist until the highest vacuum shows on the gauge. Done. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 BuickDriver, the manual says look for the yellow paint which is all flaked off. Can't find the timing mark. Thanks Ben I'll do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 You could pull the clutch cover pan and rotate the flywheel using a screwdriver until you find the marks (they may be very cruddy) and then mark them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 BuickDriver, the manual says look for the yellow paint which is all flaked off. Can't find the timing mark. Thanks Ben I'll do that.Didn't you say the manual indicated that one of the valves on cylinder #3 just begins to open when #1 is at TDC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Yeah but that's not very accurate, there's many degrees of rotation involved. But the time interval between exhaust valve closing and intake valve opening is like 0 degrees (on some engines less than 0). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Found the timing mark!! My theory worked. I stopped cranking when the exhaust valve on 8 was just closing and the intake on 8 was just opening, which is right around the same time. Still could not see any timing mark, even with a good flashlight. Then I thought, what about taking a picture with my Nikon and macro lens, and a flash. Sure enough, there was the timing mark! http://www.hyzercreek.com/DSCN0337.JPG Now I have to brush the spot and get some yellow paint. I'm thinking latex house paint is pretty strong. Yellow mark supposed to be 1/8 inch wide. This might be a good technique for others to use if they can't find the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAD THOMAS Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 maybe out of touch with this model but on mine the vacuum for the wipers is off the fuel pump which will not help in the timing.just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Update: This engine is actually blown. Those compression readings never came up after several times of trying to warm it up to unstick the rings. Runs lousy, no power, smokes, stalls and won't restart. Compression supposed to be 120 for all 8 cylinders which is 120 x 8 = 960 but it's nowhere near that. It's: 1----822----353----684----465----716----617----808----75 Which adds up to 518. Engine blown. Needs rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 We probably have different definitions of "blown." To me, "blown" suggests a rod thru the block or horrific clanking from a broken piston or banging from a loose rod or main. For a more realistic expectation of compression at cranking speed, multiply the compression ratio (maybe 6.5? my book is in the garage as I write) by 14.7 (or 15) if you're near sea level. If compression ratio is 6.5, I'd expect a PERFECT cylinder to read about 97 psi, not 120. I've never heard of totaling compression readings to evaluate an engine; I look at each cylinder individually and adjoining ones. You can't possibly have cleaned the gum off rings and valve stems yet. Put a couple of quarts of ATF in the crankcase to really clean them, but I recommend setting up a (temporary, at least) full-flow modern spin-on oil filter first (like the kits available for air-cooled VWs). You're PROBABLY looking at a valve and ring job--not that difficult. When pan is down, check bearing clearances and condition of the babbitt. Poured bearings are probably the most expensive part of a rebuild. Have you checked for coolant in the oil, and vice versa? If none of the above, that's GREAT and you probably have no major issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Compression ratio on the 1953 Buick straight 8 is 7.0 for standard shift and thick head gasket and 7.6 for automatic transmission with the thin head gasket. I have standard tranny and I'm at sea level so 14.7 times 7.0 This info from the 1953 shop manual which refers you to the 1952 manual (I have both) except to say that compression ratio was raised a little from 52 to 53 with a few tweaks of the piston. These compression figures tells me it needs rebuilt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hi Morgan, sorry I forgot that you have a 1953 engine with higher compression. Even so, 14.7 x 7.0 is 103, and 14.7 x 7.6 is 112. Looks like it needs a valve job and probably new rings, which I've always called an "overhaul" rather than a "rebuild." As a 1953 engine, you (fortunately) have insert bearings. You had mentioned planning to drop the pan, but in reviewing the thread this morning, I didn't see that you had done so. I think you said that the engine was very clean under the side pan. I strongly recommend dropping the pan, cleaning it and the oil pump intake, and dismantling, inspecting and cleaning the oil pump--if you haven't done so already. Please don't give up on this engine yet. All my cars are L-heads, which are much more of a pain to do a valve job on. On previously owned OHV engines, I've just pulled the head(s) and have taken them intact to a cylinder head shop, which I found well worth the expense. Please consider doing the pan and oil pump cleaning, and checking the rod and main bearings first--before pulling the head. If the bearings are good -- or even if the **journals** are good, that would justify to me the effort and expense of pulling the head and having it done. The rings and the valves may well be gummed up beyond the point of "liquid refurbishment." If you find that the pan is relatively clean and the journals are good, it might just be that the gummed-up rings and valves are due to 30 years of sitting--and you've already determined that the 30 yrs of sitting is due to the previous owner not installing the distributor correctly. It's worth checking that out! On the other hand, if the bearings are trashed or marginal, the engine probably does need a true **rebuild.** You've shown great patience and ingenuity so far and I admire those qualities. If you invest three or four hours in pan drop and inspection, you may have a relatively easy and inexpensive solution--or if trashed, you'll be justified in a decision to abandon that engine. Best wishes and please keep us posted! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Morgan, the fact that the block isn't busted and there's no heavy knocking makes this a realistically "easy" fix. Take the heads to a shop and do the rings yourself. I did that on an international truck I had that was sitting since 1959! She ran like new after two weekends time and about $300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 The front of the oil pan is tricky to get to without the car being on a lift. Not a big fan of laying on my back trying to reach those front nuts under the frame. Was planning on taking the oil pan off after I get the engine on the cherry picker and since I already decided to do the rings I have to pull the engine anyway so I'll do everything when I get the engine in the cellar where it's warm. I don't know where you live but we get cold winters up here, the garage isn't heated. We get -20 all the time up here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Change of plans. I'll just pop off the head and take it in, see if that improves the compression. During that job I'll check for mouse turds in the exhaust manifold which will mean the muffler is plugged. Cars don't run well with maple seeds and pine nuts jacking up the back pressure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You dont have to pull the engine to pull the pistons and do the rings. However, you'd have to spend some time on your back.If you are going to pull the head, have a look at the bores to decide if a rebore is necessary. If no, I'd just do rings. Pulling the engine is a BIG job.I have found that when an engine sits for a very long time, the rings will be stuck in the ring groves, thus causing low compression.I have known guys to just free up the rings when they find that and just put the pistons back in. However, to me, that is taking a chance. I'd do new rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) You could try putting some oil in the cylinders to see if that helps bring the compression up, if it does, then the rings are an issue. All I'm saying is that the amount of work to pull the head, plus the cost of gaskets, etc., then to discover that it didn't help much would be a serious downer. On my '41, there are gaps in the front cross member that you can get a socket extension through to reach the front bolts on the bottom of the pan. They can be extremely hard to find on an old engine that is gunked up with grease and oil. Otherwise, its' not too hard to pull it off. One does need to spend time on one's back though. I hear you about the temp, I'm North of you in Toronto, and it is no fun working with cold tools, on cold steel. When I was young and foolish, I would do it all the time, but not now! Keith Edited January 10, 2016 by Buicknutty (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Today I'm going to take the head off. Pre-removal wet and dry compression test, where on the dry test the engine has been sitting for a week and on the wet test I squirt a spray can of lube into each cylinder right before the test: ............dry.........wet1..........48..........902..........31..........443..........52..........654..........45..........555..........72..........866..........74..........867..........74..........818..........65..........67 There is a big difference between wet and dry on the first cylinders and less on the back ones because I did the cylinders in order from 1 to 8 and during the dry test all the cranking probably put some oil in the cylinders so by the time I got to cylinder 8 the wet and dry are almost the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I look at these numbers and see that cylinders 2, 3 and 4 have lousy compression, which could mean there's a head gasket issue around that area. I'll find out when I take the head off if the gasket is bad there, or was even bad there 30 years ago when it was last run, I should be able to tell by examining the head and top of the block. It would be great if the whole problem was a blown gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Well the gasket wasn't blown. Head is out and ready for the shop. When I crank the engine with the head off the sound is smooth, no signs of cracked block or sounds of broken rings or loose bearings or anything. This is a good engine. Made the dumb mistake of taking off the head without draining the coolant from the block first, so when I got the head loose the cylinders filled with coolant. Never said I wasn't stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 There is the video of the pistons pushing the antifreeze out. Now to fill them with oil, and then change the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Don't feel so bad, I've done it too! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The guy at the machine shop (NAPA in Saratoga) said he did a pressure test on the head before he took it apart, and said the valves around 2, 3, and 4 were leaking all the rest were solid. Gonna give me all new valves and guides, regrind the intake valves and new hardened seats for the exhaust valves. Springs were fine, and the head wasn't warped but he'll take a few thousandths off to make it new. Recommends not using silicone on the gasket. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Morgan, I'm glad you are going the distance on this Buick!! Keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The guy at the machine shop (NAPA in Saratoga) said he did a pressure test on the head before he took it apart, and said the valves around 2, 3, and 4 were leaking all the rest were solid. Gonna give me all new valves and guides, regrind the intake valves and new hardened seats for the exhaust valves. Springs were fine, and the head wasn't warped but he'll take a few thousandths off to make it new. Recommends not using silicone on the gasket.I second the no silicone on a head gasket, just make sure when you reinstall, you follow torque specs and tighten them in the correct order. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 OK today I'm cleaning up the block prior to installing the head which will be ready Tuesday. Since I made a mess of everything by filling the cylinders with antifreeze and cranking the engine to splash it out, I figure I got dirt and crud into the head bolt holes, and into the water jacket passages. So I got the brilliant idea to clean out the water jacket. I stuck a screwdriver into the openings at the back, near cylinder 8, and it felt like there was 2 or 3 inches of crud at the bottom of the water jacket. I opened the stop cock and clean coolant came out. Hmmm. So with the screwdriver I stirred up all the crud to try and dissolve it, and added a quart of warm water hoping to get some of the crud out the stop cock. But only clean water came out. So, I stuck a toothbrush into the layer of crud and pulled out rust. Rust doesn't dissolve in water so there isn't a way to get it out, so I guess I'll just leave it there. It seems the direction of flow of coolant is front to back in the lower water jacket and then up to the head and back to front in the head. That's why the rust piles up down there at the rear of the engine. Who knew there was 2 or 3 inches of rust particles at the bottom of the water jacket in old cars? If it ain't broke don't fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 To clean out the head bolt holes, I used a can of Duster from Home Depot, it's like a can of compressed air but full of difluoro ethane which is liquid in the can. It comes out of the can as a gas under high pressure like compressed air, but if you hold the can sideways it comes out as a liquid. The liquid is a very good solvent and squirts all the crud out of the hole, and if you wipe it with a rag quickly you get all the junk out. I was getting tons of stuff out of the bolt holes, that probably would have prevented torquing the head bolts correctly. Use difluoro ethane with good ventilation, I don't trust anything with fluorine in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Morgan, I went through the same issue with my '41 Roadmaster. I had run a lot of rad cleaner through the system before I took the head off, and rather foolishly thought that it would would be fairly clean in there, but was I wrong. I knocked out the frost plugs to replace them anyway, and then spent a lot of time, and made a huge mess cleaning out the back of the block. Messy and time consuming, but the engine will run much cooler if its' clean in there. The design is rather bad, as the rear most frost plug is only near #7, and there is a bunch of crud further back that is hard to get to. If you can persevere, and get it cleaned out, you will reap the benefits later on. Keith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I was shocked by the amount of rust in there. Must be a pound of it. Thinking of taking a shop vac and attaching a thin tube with duct tape, and sucking at least a good amount of the rust up, but then again, rust is so much heavier than water (did you even pan for gold. I have done a lot of panning and the iron particles sink right down with the gold) so it stays at the bottom of the water jacket in a pile and doesn't really matter much and can't clog anything because it's too heavy to be brought up into the head. So maybe just leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I covered up the top of the block with a piece of plywood, and then with the block drain out completely on the other side, I used the garden hose and flushed it repeatedly. I got some cheap plastic pans to put underneath the car that caught most, but not all of it. This time of year that technique would be quite a bit more difficult! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I'm not worried. If all that pile of rust did anything to block the cooling of the cylinders it would only be the bottoms of the cylinders, and most of the heat happens in the upper cylinders and head. Since rust is not soluble it will just sit there and won't dissolve into the coolant and will never get into the radiator. I guess if you are a rust particle in the cooling system of this car, you will wind up settling out in the bottom of the water jacket near cylinders 7 and 8 and stay there for the next 75 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 The specific gravity of rust is 5.3 so it's heavy. If it was particles of dirt or sand (specific gravity 2 to 2.5) then I'd worry. What I learned from panning for gold is the heavy stuff just sits there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Before and after. I hope this make it run as good as it looks. I will finish installing it and run a compression test tomorrow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 When I was installing the thermostat housing to the head I noticed the coolant bypass between the block and the head was completely blocked by rust. I couldn't even get a small screwdriver into it. I jabbed it and poked it for a while to open it up. I'm glad the engine never started because if it did, there would have been no circulation of coolant whatsoever. Totally blocked. I wonder what shape the water pump is in, after seeing all that rust in there. Thermostat was just a lump of rust. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Before and after. I hope this make it run as good as it looks. I will finish installing it and run a compression test tomorrow. Actually, it did not look too bad from a sludge point. Fairly clean. What was found.? And how did the block look.? Assume you only did the head? Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Morgan, if you read my thread about my '69 Electra, I posted a picture of the thermostat that came out of it. Totally rusted to bits, at first it looked like it wasn't there!I'm looking forward to the next installment in your saga.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I'm not worried. If all that pile of rust did anything to block the cooling of the cylinders it would only be the bottoms of the cylinders, and most of the heat happens in the upper cylinders and head. Since rust is not soluble it will just sit there and won't dissolve into the coolant and will never get into the radiator. I guess if you are a rust particle in the cooling system of this car, you will wind up settling out in the bottom of the water jacket near cylinders 7 and 8 and stay there for the next 75 years.Greetings! It's never to late to treat it with Evap-o-Rust about 22.00/gal most auto stores. Non corrosive biodegradable dissolves rust. Does not etch the base metal. Magic isn't strong enuff to describe this stuff! Don't believe me, gamble 22$ and try it on something unimportant if worried. Hope it helps, actually I know it helps! Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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