Heavy- Duty Springs?

[Guest dwhiteside64]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me how to identify if a first generation Riviera has heavy-duty springs? Is there a way to know this by examination?

Thanks

[Jim Cannon]

Measure from the ground up to the rear wheel opening (stainless trim).

If about 25.5 inches, those are HD springs.

If closer to 24", stock springs.

HTH.

[RockinRiviDad]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me how to identify if a first generation Riviera has heavy-duty springs? Is there a way to know this by examination?

Thanks

Are you referring to what some call the GS springs? Or is there a difference between HD & the GS springs?

[RivNut]

There is no such thing as a GS spring. In 1965, the GS package was an option (A9) that had to do with engine, transmission, rear end, exhaust, wheel covers, and badging. The handling option (H2) had to do with the springs, shocks, etc. In many instances, they were both ordered on the same car and over the years the H2 option has been mistakenly been called "GS Springs." Also, the Riviera was a Gran Sport, not a GS. GS was used to identify the performance package on the Skylark models.

Here's something that I copied and pasted from an article written some time ago by a couple of Gran Sport experts.

The Ride and Handling package was commonly used on the Gran Sport, but was a separate option. The modified steering improved the turning ratio from the standard 17 ½:1 (approximately 3 ¼ turns) to a 15:1 ratio ( approximately 2 ½ turns). The springs were stiffer and caused the car to sit an inch lower. The shocks were firmer, causing different weight distribution.

I would say that it would be really difficult to tell if a car had a Heavy Duty or Trailer option on a 50 year old set of springs. They've probably started sagging quite a bit over that time.

Ed

Edited August 11, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

This is an interesting question for the `64 model year. According to the `64 wholesale car order form there were 2 spring options available for Buicks.

There was a 1A option which is described as a "trailer spring (rear springs only)" which would undoubtedly result in a higher ride height which Jim is eluding to. Jim, where did you obtain your ride height data, the `63 shop manual?

But, there was also a 1B "Heavy Duty Spring Option-front and rear springs, front and rear shocks. not available on 4747 (Riviera).

From the wholesale car order form it would appear the Riviera was only available with the trailering spring option but I have another source of factory literature which clearly lists the heavy duty spring option as available for the Riviera and even gives a price of $5.38

Could it be that both spring options were available at some point but the heavy duty spring option was dropped for the Riviera by the time the wholesale car order form, which I am referencing, dated March 10, 1964, was printed?

At this point we are fortunate enough to have Buicks Daily Car Reports and can verify if Buick ever built the Riviera with both options and how many cars were equipped with each. I also have a "1964 Accessories and Options Codes" listing dated Feb 14, 1964 which describes the 1B heavy duty spring option as NOT available on the 4700 (Riviera) models. Let`s see what the Daily Car Report says......

In the 1964 model run Buick produced 161 Rivieras with the 1A trailer spring option. Buick also produced 674 Rivieras with the 1B heavy duty spring option! Of the 674 1B equipped cars 179 were destined for export.

Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

There are several possible ways to determine if your `64 was equipped with heavy duty or trailering springs.

The first is as Jim suggests by measuring ride height. I am somewhat skeptical that this is accurate after 50 years, and possible spring changes, but may be your most easily obtainable data and your only clue.

There is another possibility...I have on occasion found a paper part tag still affixed to front and rear springs on both well kept cars and cars needing complete restoration. Look high on the spring, maybe even in the spring pocket, for a yellow paper tag. This tag will have both the GM part number and a two character alpha code (used on the assembly line as documented on the build sheet) for the benefit of the assembly line workers. If you are lucky enough to find the paper tag you will know which springs your car is equipped with.

There is another way but not practical...I have often observed the GM part number stamped into the spring but I highly doubt one would be able to view it without disassemby.

Hope this helps,

Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

This goes along with what Tom just wrote, but it has to do with the '63 model year. The options listed 2nd and 3rd from the bottom of this list shows the 1A and 1B spring options, with footnotes and explanations. I'm just copying and pasting from the TeamBuick reference page on the 63 full sized models. I can't make any statements about accuracy.

Team Buick Forum

Ed

Edited August 11, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Both the Skylark and Riviera models were referred to by Buick as "Gran Sport" in 1965. This evolved into both the Skylark and Riviera "GS" models for `66 and beyond. The "GS" identification is obviously an acronym for "Gran Sport".

I believe the experts that Ed is referencing are incorrect in their description of the quick steering option. I have owned quite a few `65 GS cars with this option. I have observed that the difference in the quick box is one turn faster than standard, 2 and 7/8ths turns versus 3 and 7/8ths turns.

I have never owned a documented quick steering equipped `66 but I recall (it has been quite a few years since I researched this so I could be wrong!) that the standard steering equipped `66 Riviera is also 3 and 7/8ths turns lock to lock. The parts books list the `65 and `66 quick steering boxes as being the same so my experience with the `65 cars should carry over into `66.

I would guess the error in Ed`s reference originated in `66 Buick sales literature which prompted me to do the research on the `66 models when I encountered the error many moons ago.

More info to add to the proverbial mountain of useless information!

Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

I pulled the info from Ray's article on "How to ID a Gran Sport" which first appeared in the Riview and is now on the ROA website. The experts I am referring to are referred to as follows. I suppose we could ask the librarian to authenticate this.

The subject of the 1965 Gran Sport has been extensively researched by several ROA members including Technical Advisor Leonard Scott, ROA 125, and the late John Hirsch ROA #47. The supportive data and references are too extensive to include in this article, but are in the ROA library if there are specific questions.

[Jim Cannon]

There are standard plus two rear spring options for the '63 Riviera (per the Buick Master Chassis Parts book, which I have and sell CD versions of for $10+postage).

The first option is what they call the Trailering Spring in the sales literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 200# overload spring.

The second is what they call the HD spring in the literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 500# overload spring. This is what I have in my car. They are a few years old now but still at full height (have not settled). That's where I got the height measurement from.

The sales literature also refers to you getting HD shocks in the rear with the 200# spring and HD shocks in front and rear with the 500# spring. But I do not see these HD shocks in the Parts Book. They list only one shock number for the front for the Riviera. All of the other models have a front HD shock option part number, but not the Riv.

For the rear, the only shock option they list for the Riviera are called "Superlift" shocks. I suspect these are air shocks, where you can hit the shock with air when heavily loaded and it will raise the back end up. Again, for all the other models, they list a HD rear shock option, but not for the Riviera.

You might be interested to know that they list two springs for the front: one is for non-A/C cars and the other is for A/C equipped cars.

If anyone wants to buy a copy of the 1963 Master Parts Book on CD, sent a PM or e-mail.

HTH.

[1965rivgs]

There are standard plus two rear spring options for the '63 Riviera (per the Buick Master Chassis Parts book, which I have and sell CD versions of for $10+postage).

The first option is what they call the Trailering Spring in the sales literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 200# overload spring.

The second is what they call the HD spring in the literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 500# overload spring. This is what I have in my car. They are a few years old now but still at full height (have not settled). That's where I got the height measurement from.

The sales literature also refers to you getting HD shocks in the rear with the 200# spring and HD shocks in front and rear with the 500# spring. But I do not see these HD shocks in the Parts Book. They list only one shock number for the front for the Riviera. All of the other models have a front HD shock option part number, but not the Riv.

For the rear, the only shock option they list for the Riviera are called "Superlift" shocks. I suspect these are air shocks, where you can hit the shock with air when heavily loaded and it will raise the back end up. Again, for all the other models, they list a HD rear shock option, but not for the Riviera.

You might be interested to know that they list two springs for the front: one is for non-A/C cars and the other is for A/C equipped cars.

If anyone wants to buy a copy of the 1963 Master Parts Book on CD, sent a PM or e-mail.

HTH.

Hi Jim...so your ride height figures are acquired from aftermarket replacement springs? I`m not crazy about the aftermarket as a source of evidence, especially when it comes to coil springs. Moog marketed the same springs for Rivieras and Electras for years which produced an inaccurately high rear ride height for the first gen cars.

The Super Lift shocks are air shocks.

Interesting info regarding the absence of HD shocks for the Riviera in the parts book. Any concrete conclusions drawn boil down to "If it is not in the parts book then Buick didnt build it". Obviously the best scenario would be to find an original survivor with the HD option and do some detective work. Like a needle in a haystack...

Yes, front spring rates are always different for AC equipped cars due to the weight of the AC components.

Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

I pulled the info from Ray's article on "How to ID a Gran Sport" which first appeared in the Riview and is now on the ROA website. The experts I am referring to are referred to as follows. I suppose we could ask the librarian to authenticate this.

The subject of the 1965 Gran Sport has been extensively researched by several ROA members including Technical Advisor Leonard Scott, ROA 125, and the late John Hirsch ROA #47. The supportive data and references are too extensive to include in this article, but are in the ROA library if there are specific questions.

Hi Ed,

I suspected this was the source of your reference but I havnt read that article for years. I have dozens of letters written between myself and Leonard regarding many details about the `65 GS cars but I dont recall ever discussing the quick steering box.

If my memory serves me well the article you are referring to was also co-authored by Darwin Falk? I suspect that is how the mistake in the `66 literature made its way into the article...if it is, indeed, a mistake. Darwin is an expert on the `66 cars and would probably have referenced `66 literature for the article. This is just speculation on my part in the interest of providing the most accurate info possible. An inquiry to the original authors would be in order to clear things up.

Again, it has been many years since I researched this topic but I`m quite sure the `66 Riv I checked had the same number of turns lock to lock as my `65 cars. The `66 I checked was a completely restored car but I`m sure, because of that, I checked the date code on the steering box to be sure it was not replaced with a unit from a different year.

Perhaps someone with an original, low mileage `66 could check the number of turns lock to lock and contribute some data to this discussion.

Tom Mooney

[JZRIV]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me how to identify if a first generation Riviera has heavy-duty springs? Is there a way to know this by examination?

Thanks

Here is a possible option. In all cases where I've compared the wire diameter of coil springs between standard and GS model 66-67s the diameter is always a few thousandths of and inch larger on the heavy duty springs. This is very typical of coil springs in general when a higher load rate is needed.

You don't need to know what the specification is. Just a good reading from a known "original" standard spring car (or 2 or 3) for comparsion.

If the spring has scaly rust you will not be able to get a good reading.

On springs with normal surface rust, I lightly sand a couple of the coils and take about 5 readings with micrometers and average them. Fronts of course are a little more difficult unless they are off the car. This of course is only applicable when the springs are known to be originals.

Edited August 11, 2013 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Hi Ed,

If my memory serves me well the article you are referring to was also co-authored by Darwin Falk?

Tom Mooney

Tom,

Your memory serves you well!

[Guest dwhiteside64]

Hi guys,

Forgot to get back and let you know that my car is indeed the standard height at 24". I believe I have new springs so this makes sense. Thanks for all the support!

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Measure from the ground up to the rear wheel opening (stainless trim).

If about 25.5 inches, those are HD springs.

If closer to 24", stock springs.

HTH.

I'm at 21 1/2" with 215/75r 15 tires in back, 24 1/4 " in front to stainless trim ,same size tires

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 11 August 2013 at 9:23 PM, Jim Cannon said:

There are standard plus two rear spring options for the '63 Riviera (per the Buick Master Chassis Parts book, which I have and sell CD versions of for $10+postage).

The first option is what they call the Trailering Spring in the sales literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 200# overload spring.

The second is what they call the HD spring in the literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 500# overload spring. This is what I have in my car. They are a few years old now but still at full height (have not settled). That's where I got the height measurement from.

The sales literature also refers to you getting HD shocks in the rear with the 200# spring and HD shocks in front and rear with the 500# spring. But I do not see these HD shocks in the Parts Book. They list only one shock number for the front for the Riviera. All of the other models have a front HD shock option part number, but not the Riv.

For the rear, the only shock option they list for the Riviera are called "Superlift" shocks. I suspect these are air shocks, where you can hit the shock with air when heavily loaded and it will raise the back end up. Again, for all the other models, they list a HD rear shock option, but not for the Riviera.

You might be interested to know that they list two springs for the front: one is for non-A/C cars and the other is for A/C equipped cars.

If anyone wants to buy a copy of the 1963 Master Parts Book on CD, sent a PM or e-mail.

HTH.

 

Jim,

I was also trying to find an alternate part number for the Heavy Duty front and rear shocker for the option for 63 Riviera as I'm thinking that what I have pulled from my car are that HD version. My original sales invoice shows this option was fitted and you can see from the photo when placed alongside a Gabriel replacement that they are monster shocks. Body and shaft diameters are way bigger, 2" body and 5/8" shaft.

 

The are Monroe with a stamped number of 5030. I have emailed Monroe but have not yet had a reply as I would like to replace them with an equivalent size and rated shocker.

 

Any help would be really appreciated ( difficult to drive like it is?)

 

Rodney

[1965rivgs]

58 minutes ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

 

Jim,

I was also trying to find an alternate part number for the Heavy Duty front and rear shocker for the option for 63 Riviera as I'm thinking that what I have pulled from my car are that HD version. My original sales invoice shows this option was fitted and you can see from the photo when placed alongside a Gabriel replacement that they are monster shocks. Body and shaft diameters are way bigger, 2" body and 5/8" shaft.

 

The are Monroe with a stamped number of 5030. I have emailed Monroe but have not yet had a reply as I would like to replace them with an equivalent size and rated shocker.

 

Any help would be really appreciated ( difficult to drive like it is?)

 

Rodney

The Monroe shocks are probably replacements. I suspect the "original" shocks on your Riv were Delco

  Tom

[60FlatTop]

Here is a picture of me standing next to my '64 around 1982. I am not too tall, 5' 9" with cowboy boots, maybe. But I live in a part of the country that has a lot of "short" genes, so I do OK.

 

At the time of the picture I was at a local car show. A guy I knew came up to the cr and asked "Wow, how'd you get it down so low?" I told him the springs were probably shot.

 

I bought a set of rear springs in 1986from J C Whitney. They  were kind of fitsall springs and the rear towered in the air. I didn't like that at all and put the old ones back in. At least it was level.

 

Then in 1993, when I pulled the chassis out and redid it I put new Moog springs in front and new rears from Suspension Specialties or Just suspension. The rears were specific for the car.

One big thing on disassembly, was the crushed body mounts. The ones at the arch over the axle were compressed by about 2". And the car was only 30 years old then. Originals have had another 20 years to squish down. The only body mounts I reused were the oval ones at the rear. There is very little sprung weight at the rear of these cars.

 

So with new springs and new body mounts the rocker panel is horizontal with the ground and at a height I like. Doesn't make me look much shorter. I just don't put my hand on the roof any more if I have my picture taken.

Here is a 2011 shot with the new stuff. Also the first picture showed 78 series tires, 7,10 X 15's in 2011.

Edited July 4, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

Tom Mooney is correct.  If you found Monroe shocks on your car, they are not factory.

 

When I replaced my car's shocks in 2004, I put in Monroe 5759 in the front and 5760 in the rear.

 

The car rides well.  The shocks are not anything fancy.  Not setup for racing.  Just a standard comfortable ride.

 

I can get you the GM part number for the HD shocks, if you want, but I do not think that it will do you much good today.  Just let me know.

 

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 11 August 2013 at 9:23 PM, Jim Cannon said:

There are standard plus two rear spring options for the '63 Riviera (per the Buick Master Chassis Parts book, which I have and sell CD versions of for $10+postage).

The first option is what they call the Trailering Spring in the sales literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 200# overload spring.

The second is what they call the HD spring in the literature. In the Parts Book they call it a 500# overload spring. This is what I have in my car. They are a few years old now but still at full height (have not settled). That's where I got the height measurement from.

The sales literature also refers to you getting HD shocks in the rear with the 200# spring and HD shocks in front and rear with the 500# spring. But I do not see these HD shocks in the Parts Book. They list only one shock number for the front for the Riviera. All of the other models have a front HD shock option part number, but not the Riv.

For the rear, the only shock option they list for the Riviera are called "Superlift" shocks. I suspect these are air shocks, where you can hit the shock with air when heavily loaded and it will raise the back end up. Again, for all the other models, they list a HD rear shock option, but not for the Riviera.

You might be interested to know that they list two springs for the front: one is for non-A/C cars and the other is for A/C equipped cars.

If anyone wants to buy a copy of the 1963 Master Parts Book on CD, sent a PM or e-mail.

HTH.

 

Jim, that would be great if you could.

Seems like what you are saying, these are a HD replacement that were installed at one time.

 

Any help would be really appreciated ( difficult to drive like it is?)

 

Rodney

[KongaMan]

I've got 215s all around, and (AFAIK) the rear springs are original.  After changing the rear shocks (to KYB KG54105) and track bar bushings, I'm at 24½" from ground to wheel well molding.  I have no reason to believe that I've got anything other than standard springs.

[Jim Cannon]

I had to go back and read my original post again.

 

The parts book lists HD springs, not shocks, for the Riviera.

 

If your car rides so poorly, pretty much any shock that fits will help it ride better.  Use the Monroe numbers I listed above.

 

 

 

 

 

[KongaMan]

IMHO, it's important to remember that it's a suspension system.  That is, there is not usually a one-part magic bullet to fix a ride issue.

 

Example: when I started on my front end, the shocks were shot, the springs were sagging, and you could move the lower control arms up and down with no more effort than opening a toy chest.  If you put a jack under the lower control arm, the springs compressed almost all the way before the body would start to lift.  After replacing the LCA bushings and torquing them down, jacking up the control arm would lift the body tout de suite.  There is no way that won't affect the ride, and no shocks in the world are going to duplicate that difference. Point being, you may have bad shocks, but there's a good chance you've got other problems that new shocks alone can't hide.

 

The rear end was similar: shocks were shot, and the track bar bushings were shredded.  I fixed both of those problems, but I suspect that the control arm bushings need some attention as well: with the shocks disconnected, you could push the body up quite a bit with one hand and it would bounce around for a while.  Yeah, you've got the springs helping, but there are 6 bushings that are supposed to be resisting that movement.  From what I could tell, they weren't doing very well at that (they were acting more like hinges).  So, for all the change the new shocks and track bar bushings brought, I'd think that new control arm bushings would be quite noticeable in their own right.

 

IMHO, if your car rides that poorly, it might be worth a little time to do a more comprehensive inspection of the system rather than assuming that it's all down to old shocks.

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

Thanks Jim for that. It seems the shockers were a later fitment. I also could not see any listing for 63 apart from standard. So it may be that these Gabriel's will be the go. Just waiting on Monroe to reply.

 

Thanks KongaMan, the ride on the old shockers was quite acceptable, it is the rubber bushes were looking a tad tired. True that just replacing shocks won't fix everything, but certainly they will improve it. Have done sway bar bushes with polyurethane, so this is the next step. And I take your point, that a complete inspection of the suspension, both front and rear will be necessary.

 

Cheers Rodney?

[60FlatTop]

The rubber bushings have a steel center sleeve with serrated ends that hold the sleeve tight to the suspension member. The rubber absorbs the normal rotation. Many cars I have taken apart are no longer concentric and the weight has compressed the rubber.

 

The other thing I find is torn bushings from service performed with the shocks disconnected and the suspension member rotated beyond the limit of the rubber bushing, such as a spring replacement.

 

When I do any service that will rotate a rubber bushed suspension member beyond normal operation, I loosen the through bolt and make sure it turns freely in the steel sleeve. Then I use a large chisel to spread the suspension member away from the serrated edge so it has complete freedom of movement. Most shops don't do that and if you ask, they look at you like you are babbling in some unknown language.

 

If anyone has changed springs and, possibly, even shocks, there is a good change they messed the bushings up.

 

I only did it once, but it was my own car. And I am a quick learner.

Bernie

[60FlatTop]

Oh, one more thing. Don't be surprised to walk into a shop servicing your car and find the full weight of your rearend supported by the brake hose.

 

Once in a while I get generous and share some work. Changing a set of ball joints in a '65 Electra shouldn't have to include a search for an aluminum brake drum. The whole spindle, backing plate, brake assembly, and drum were just too much for that brake hose. Who'da thunk, not the blonde male mechanic.

 

Just when I was beginning to think a Craigslist Break Job was a spelling mistake.

[KongaMan]

Good advice.  IIRC, the FSM omits that step; they don't mention loosening the bushing before popping the lower control arm off the spindle and dropping it to release the spring.  Nor do they include that step when changing the rear springs; that's 6 bolts that need to be loosened before letting the axle drop.

 

Your point about the serrated ends also speaks to some replacement parts.  For example, the Rare Parts replacement bushings for the rear control arms use a plain spacer to fill the gap between the end of the bushing and the bracket.  IMHO, the smooth end on that spacer won't get the same purchase on the bracket, which may mean the bushing won't work as designed.  That's another reason to make your own; I use a thinner spacer with a serrated washer between the spacer and frame.  I can't say that it's as good as the single-piece sleeve on the original parts, but it's got to be better than relying on friction alone.

 

[PWB]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:12 AM, rodneybeauchamp said:

 

I was also trying to find an alternate part number for the Heavy Duty front and rear shocker for the option for 63 Riviera as I'm thinking that what I have pulled from my car are that HD version. My original sales invoice shows this option was fitted and you can see from the photo when placed alongside a Gabriel replacement that they are monster shocks. Body and shaft diameters are way bigger, 2" body and 5/8" shaft.

 

The are Monroe with a stamped number of 5030. I have emailed Monroe but have not yet had a reply as I would like to replace them with an equivalent size and rated shocker.

I just went to NAPA here in the U.S. inquiring about shocks.

NAPA sells Monroe shocks but the (senior) clerk stated they no longer make shocks for the much older cars. Some available now may coincidentally fit certain apps.

He appeared well seasoned and knowledgeable. He had no shocks for my '67.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

If you have a friendly counterman ask for a pair of 1970-71 Dodge or Plymouth shocks. All the dimensions are the same as Buick except the slots for the lower bolts are something like 5/16" where Buick uses 3/8" bolts. A rat tail file fixes that quick.

 

Joan was the best countergirl ever. She's retired now. She found the shocks and, if anyone ordered some they didn't pick up, she'd let me know before they sent it back, special tools and stuff like that.

Bernie