38 Olds restoration

[Larry J]

Mike - Honestly I don’t remember why I put 2x4s under the a arms. That was a long time ago. I know the bumpers need to be replaced and I know I put them there when I took the engine out. Just haven’t gotten around to removing them.  Put a carb kit in today but did not get to the oil pump issue. The nice thing about being retired is that nothing has to be done today 😎

[Larry J]

Spent most of the day working on the oil pressure issue with no real resolution. Tried the vasoline treatment but that didn’t work. Pulled the pump and put a gallon of oil under pressure into the line at the pump opening. Cleaned the pump up and reinstalled. Still no pressure. So I reinstalled the plugs and kicked it over with some starter fluid. It fired a few times and when it did the oil pressure needle bounced.  Still pondering what to do. 

[Bloo]

How sure are you the pump is turning? Is the drive gear on the distributor or the oil pump? Is the distributor turning? Could there be some sort of a drive spring in there that is missing?

 

Taking that a step further, how sure are you the camshaft is turning? Maybe you can see moving valves through a spark plug hole?

 

If that's all ok, it definitely should have primed by cranking once you had vaseline in the pump. Did you have the spark plugs out when you were cranking? That helps it happen a lot  faster.

 

If it is turning, and full of vaseline, about the only thing left is an air leak in the oil pickup somewhere on the way to the pump. I'd check that very closely, then load it up with vaseline and try again.

 

How are you measuring pressure? I wouldn't trust the gauge in the car. A mechanical oil pressure gauge doesn't cost much. I keep one in my toolbox for times like these.

 

One more possibility I guess is that it is moving oil, but still not building pressure. I would temporarily disconnect that oil filter and plug the ports that supply it. Sometimes those bypass oil filters are found to be missing an orifice.

 

Have you looked at the blow-off valve for the oil pump? I don't know where it is located on this Olds, but it is probably in the oil pump. Make sure it isn't stuck open or missing the spring or something like that.

 

EDIT: Does this car have plugs driven into the ends of the oil gallerys in the crankshaft? If so, you'd better make sure one hasn't fallen out.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Larry J]

Thanks Bloo - everything is turning and no plugs in the crank end to come out. Disconnected the oil filter and bled the line to the mechanical pressure gauge. Pump is full if oil and valve is not stuck. Used a gravity feed funnel for gas line and with a little help it started right up. Oil pressure went to 25 then it ran out of gas.  I’m still not sure it is getting oil everywhere it needs to be. Had the valve covers off so it was pretty noisy but i didn’t see any oil dripping. 

[63RedBrier]

Do we really want to be using vaseline for priming a new engine?  I would be hesitant vaseline would not break down with the break in oil or move to somewhere where it would cause a blockage or other problems.  Thoughts?

[Bloo]

Vaseline is petroleum, dissolves in motor oil, and melts at a very low temperature. It's what we used in the old days. You could do worse. Today "assembly lube" might be a good option. Chassis grease was also often used, and it has ingredients that are not just oil, and has a high melting point. That would be more likely to have the issues you describe, although over the years I have never heard one single story of anyone having a problem from it. It all gets forced through and blown out right away from oil pressure and flow.

 

The vaseline trick exists because there is often a long period of time between when the pump on a new engine gets assembled and when the engine gets started. With insufficient oil in the pump, it doesn't seal well and has trouble picking up the oil.

[Larry J]

Well it’s back to the drawing board - I found some reall fine bearing material in the oil - enough to discolor the oil so….I pulled the pan but can’t really tell anything from laying on my back with a stoplight. Pulling the engine today where I can get it on a bench and start taking things out to identify the problem. 

[Larry J]

Engine is out - might go exploring tomorrow but this week for sure. 

[chistech]

You might find your rod bearings are deteriorating and your mains fine. Olds used different Babbitt material in the mains VS the rods and the rods always seem to fail before the crank bearings even show wear. Your oil pressure should be 30 lbs when the motor is running.

[chistech]

I went back and read your thread and it seems you did bearing work. Did you do anything with the rod bearings or just the mains? If you did do anything with the rod bearings then you need to recheck them. What’s strange is your mains had issues as most early thirties olds owners that I’ve spoken with, had the same experience as me, good mains but bad rods. Maybe mid to late thirties, things changed.  
    I believe your distributor has the drive gear on it that engages your cam shaft. The bottom of your distributor shaft should engage your oil pump. You can usually make up a long rod with a flat on it to engage the oil pump and spin it with a drill. You need to spin it in the same direction the rotor in the distributor turns which most spin clockwise.

[Larry J]

How critical is it that the rods are reinstalled in the original position?  I had the rod journals reground 10 under with new bearings. Pulled number 3 and 4 rod bearing caps and the bearings look ok. Ran wire through the oil hole and spit with no blockage but I noticed the rods are marked 1 through 8 and mine are installed 13482675. The engine rebuilder apparently didn’t catch that.  I looks like the rods and mains are getting oil but it’s not getting to the upper part of the engine. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Larry J
Additional information (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

IMO. Yes it matters. Especially if the rods are in backwards so the oil hole isn’t in the right position. Also the rod caps need to correspond with the right rod. A friend put the rods in backwards on a V8 as 1357 were in 2468. I couldn’t turn it over with a breaker bar. We switch them and could turn over by hand. Mike  

[Larry J]

Yeah I agree - I think the bearing material is from the cam bearings though. If I get real motivated I will pull the head and cam tomorrow.  It shouldn’t be a big deal to put the rods and pistons in the right order. I am suspecting that the cam bearings may be improperly installed.  

[chistech]

 My 32 Olds 6 has rifle drilled rods which supply pressurized oil from the crank up to the wrist pins, I would suspect your 37 does also. If so, the replacement bearings should have holes corresponding with the rod drillings. Not sure how the cam bearings could be installed incorrectly but they could not be seated in the center of their journal I would think. Do you have a 37 olds technical manual? It should explain the motor in detail. The olds flatheads are pretty solid engines.

[chistech]

When you say oil is not getting to the upper part of the engine, what upper parts. Most of the working, oil pressurized parts are in the bottom with the wrist pins being the highest pressurized parts. Now that I’m thinking of it. I believe the oil pump first supplies the main crank bearings from the oil manifold then from each crank bearing to the closest cam bearing journal. On my engine the #2 cam bearing then supplies the oil filter which then dumps back to the sump. If the cam bearings were installed and the oil holes not lined up, that could be your oil pressure issue as the gauge pulls pressure off a cam journal. Again, on my engine pressure is gauged at #4 or the rearmost cam journal.

   The 32’s also had a oil temp regulator as part of the oiling system. When the oil is cold, it bypasses the temperature regulator core by way of the oil pressure relief valve in the side of the pump and goes directly to the oil manifold and on to the bearings. As it warms, oil goes directly through both the bypass and the regulator core. When it’s hot, in normal driving conditions, oil then goes through the regulator core only and on through the manifold with a small amount returning to the pump from the manifold through the relief valve. The relief valve is a two way valve and appears to be what regulates the 30psi constant pressure. The pump has two exits that supply the oil manifold. One supply is through the relief valve, the other supply is through the temperature regulator core. The two supply lines are connected together at the oil manifold and one line (the line with the bypass valve), acts as a oil return to the pump at higher rpm’s. 
     This might be more than you need to hear but I would assume your 37 can’t be much different. As far as the rods in the correct location, here’s my experience with my mains. I had to do nothing to my mains or the main journals. The crank was removed to polish the rod journals then reinstalled. With the main caps all torqued to 20ftpds, the crank didn’t want to spin much at all, in fact it was tight. Strange considering we did nothing to the mains. Torqued it to 40 ftpds and it was slightly easier to spin. Went to 50lbs and it was easier again. I believe we finished at 65ft pds and the crank spun easily and very freely! My machinist said this was excellent and how a good engine is. Things should be right under torque and not until. I’m not sure with new bearings if the exact replacement of the rods is essential but as an assembly, piston, wrist pin, and rod, then I would say yes. My own engine got new babbited rods and I’m not certain if the rods  went back as they were originally and I can’t remember if they were numbered. I’ll have to check my pictures and I can ask my machinist.

[Larry J]

The 38 is similar in the the oil pump first supplies the mains and the rod bearings then the wrist pins, cylinders, and cam bearings. In the short time it ran I did not see any oil dripping in the valve area with the covers off. With the engine out and upside down the crank appears to have been getting oil. If I run my finger around the cam bearing openings it comes out black and a little gritty. I’m thinking the oil holes are not aligned properly.

[Larry J]

Got the engine off the floor ready to pull the head

[Larry J]

I believe the cam bearings are fed directly from the oil manifold after closer inspection. I have the 2,3,4,5,and 8 pistons out to put them in the right rod order. The bearings all look good and the cylinder walls are getting oil. Need to pick up a ring compressor at the parts store. 

[Larry J]

Pistons are all back in the right order. Cam bearings don’t look all that bad. Put compressed air through oil manifold and confirmed the cam bearings were properly aligned. Didn’t pull mains but put air through rod journals.  Picked up safety wire and pliers tonight for the rods.  I will put oil into the manifold under pressure next to see where it ends up. If all goes well I’m going to put it back together with a new oil pump and see what happens. 

[Larry J]

Everything is safety wired. Pulled the cam out and pressured oil through the manifold. Plenty of oil at the cam bearings. I’m thinking maybe I had a bad seal between the bell housing and the open end of the oil manifold. Who knows - but it’s going back together

[Bloo]

Wasn't there some kind of a plug?

 

[Larry J]

No plug - just an open 1/2 inch hole closed by the seal against the bell housing - I probably should have a plug in it

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

18 minutes ago, Larry J said:

No plug - just an open 1/2 inch hole closed by the seal against the bell housing - I probably should have a plug in it

 You SHOULD determine if a plug is needed by checking the shop manual. 

 

  Long ago and far away, I worked at a small engine rebuilder in KC Mo.  We rebuilt everything.  On of my engines, a 1952 Ford six as I recall,  went to a Western Auto store. Remember them?  When installed, oil pressure was low and oil from the back of the engine.  Yep.  I failed to install the plug in the back of the oil galley. 

 

  Ben

[JFranklin]

I did just about the same on a Chevrolet 283 when I was a kid. The engine came to me in pieces and I didn't know anything about the 3 front galley plugs until I didn't have oil pressure.

Edited November 17, 2022 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Larry J]

The oil galley has a plug in it now - my bad.  Had to order new flywheel bolts and nuts today. But soon!

[Larry J]

Finally getting back to this after a short hospital stint and cataract surgery on both eyes put me behind a couple of months. Engine is in and oil pan is on. - pump is packed with Vaseline but I’m not getting anything out of the starter. I’ll have to pull it off tomorrow and try to figure out why it’s not working. Suspect it will have to be rebuilt..  I’ve got two others that I need to clean up and give them a try. 

[GARY F]

Good to see you back Larry. I miss the update and pictures. I am the guy with the L-37

[Larry J]

I haven’t forgotten about your part Gary - still looking around the barn. Pulled the starter off the 6 cyl parts car today and bolted it on. Engine started right up with 25 pounds of oil pressure but something is still not right. After a short time it began to labor and being afraid it would seize up I shut it off. It was not running long enough to overheat. I know that oil is getting as far as the cam bearings but I’m still not seeing any oil with the valve covers off. Back to the drawing board. I’ll pull the pan and head again this week hopefully and pray I didn’t do too much damage. 

[PONTIAC1953]

On 3/6/2010 at 5:30 PM, Larry J said:

Well the weather finally warmed up enough to work in the garage so I took some time to pull the crank out of the donor engine. I have it ready to come out but man those straight eight cranks are heavy. I am going to wait until I can get a friend over here to helpme lift it out of the block. Here are a couple of pics. I also started to restore the steering wheel this winter and am still working on it.

the 1950-1954 Pontiac 268 straight eight crankshaft weighs 98 lbs.

[GARY F]

Glad to see you back Larry. I am sure you will find the problem.  Gary

[Larry J]

I just ordered a pre-oiler pressure tank. I decided the first thing to do is put oil through the system under a higher pressure to see if it appears at the valves. I have pressurized it before using a new pump up garden sprayer and that got oil to the cam bearings. If I can’t get oil to the valves I will start disassembly.  The tank should be here around the middle of the month. I can’t help but think if I had been a little more patient and a lot more astute things might have gone better. 

[Larry J]

After a period of temporary loss of interest and a visit from the kids and grandkids I got back to work on the 38. Put oil through the galley at 50 pounds of pressure but still no visible oil at the valves. Pulled the pan, manifold and head. There is some fine grit in the pan and the valve guides are bone dry. Fortunately the cylinder walls look good.    From what I can tell from the oil flow diagram in the shop manual the oil flows from the cam bearings to the valve guides. Going to pull the cam again. 

[Larry J]

Tore into the spare engine today to see if I could understand the oil flow. Ran a wire through every hole I could find and talked to my cousins husband who is an automotive engineer.  From everything I can find it appears there is no pressurized oil at the valve guides, stems or lifters. The oil is splashed from a spit hole in the rod on to the lifters- from there there is no logical way that the oil is splashed into the valve area but I know it’s oiled from all the crud in there unless the mushroom lifters push it up. I did find out the spare engine has shims in some of the bearings, the crank needs rebuilt and the cylinders need to be bored out. One may need a sleeve.  
 

I also noted that when replacing the valve guides you need to use a 3/8 tapered drill on the exhaust valve guides to keep them from sticking. That may be one issue I need to check as I doubt the rebuilder was aware of that. Next step is to send off the oil pump to be rebuilt - just so I can rule that out. 

[Bloo]

Is the only problem that you aren't seeing oil in the valve boxes?

 

The only place I think you might see pressure feed is on the lifters themselves, definitely not the guides or stems. I highly doubt the lifters are pressure fed. Isn't there an oiling diagram in the Oldsmobile shop manual? Other GM divisions always seemed to put that in. If it's there, you should be able to tell if the lifters are pressure fed.

 

 

[JFranklin]

You are not seeing oil at lifters/valves is exactly what Bloo is referring to. I doubt you have hydraulic lifters.

 

Not too sure how you fix the sticky exhaust valve with a tapered drill. Could you teach me how? Thank you.

Edited March 4, 2023 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Larry J]

I confirmed that there is no pressure feed at the valve stems, guides, or lifters. Oil is splashed. I went back and reread the shop manual and it says the intake guides are straight on the inside diameter but the exhaust guide is counterbored on the inside diameter for 3/8” at the top to minimize valve sticking.  When purchasing replacement guides from egge you can’t designate intake or exhaust so I read that as needing to counterbore the exhaust guides which I planned to do with a tapered drill. If that doesn’t make sense

I ‘m open to any guidance.  The last time a had an engine apart was over 50 years ago in a high school shop class.

[JFranklin]

I think I would measure the counterbore on the old guides and replicate the new ones as close as possible if I thought it would help. I think with newer oils and cleaner burning fuels it might not be necessary any longer to add this step.

Edited March 10, 2023 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Larry J]

I’m all for saving a step if it’s not necessary. I bought a 3/8 inch countersink bit yesterday but in checking the guides in my spare engine they were replaced at some time and they are not counterbored. I have a oil pump rebuild kit on the way and plan to oil up the valve boxes good, overfill the oil pan, and run it for short time - then let it cool down and run it a little longer - cool down and repeat to see if it will break in. If it still binds up I’ll have to find out where. 

[Larry J]

The Olds 257 is running. After pulling the head and pan and checking everything but the ring gap I concluded that as a new rebuild and tight it was heating up much faster than I would have imagined without coolant. So I installed a radiator, overfilled the crankcase by a quart, and pressure fed oil to the valve area and timing chain. Just got the starter back from the rebuild shop and it started right up and I think is going to be ok. 

[GARY F]

Good to see you back and everything looks good.