GAS, so just how much are you paying

[Reatta Man]

Thanks!

When you think about it, sure seems sad when we think of $1.88 gas as a 'bargain.'

Joe

[Guest norb]

I just paid 2.06 in Ohio & it,s 2.37 around Flint

[Bill Stoneberg]

Most of the stations around here that I see are in the 2.00 range, some 2 or 3 cents higher, some 2 -3 cents lower. It has dropped by a dime in the last week.

[lrlforfun]

OK Everybody: I have made an appointment to get my head examined. I am driving my 65 Riviera GS as a daily driver. I lost my company car so to speak, and that's what I had kicking around. It ran lousy and the first tank was 8.7 mpg. I changed oil, put some Marvel's Mystery Oil in the crankcase and some Berryman's B-12 in the tank. I also put on a new gas cap. Next I took it on the freeway and blew the living daylights out of it. When I got to the freeway exit it was idling like a kitten, smooth and much less stink. At $2.57 for regular it gets expensive. I try to use my wife's Honda when ever possible. Another observation: The glut of old (special interest) cars has dissappeared in this area, the San Francisco, East Bay. Mitch.

[Reatta Man]

Mitch,

Have you checked the vacuum advance on the distributor lately? If it is not advancing the timing, your gas mileage will go down quickly. If you don't know how to check it, let me know. I'll walk you through it.

Good luck in that traffic. I've driven in the SF area and it is definitely Urban Assault Driving in that area.

Joe

[Reatta Man]

As of this morning, I've seen gas prices ranging from $1.86 (Wal-Mart) to $2.17 (Exxon).

Go figure why there should be such a wide range.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

I was on the road this weekend and between North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. Prices ranged from a high of 2.28 in NC, 1.99 in SC to 2.16 back home. I pulled into the 1.99 and there were long lines on all the pumps. Looked across the street and it was 2.01. Got there and there was only one person at the pump. Hey, I stood in lines enough, I'll pay the extra .75 a tank.

[55PackardGuy]

Doing something sensible like that does sometimes have its advantages, doesn't it?

[Dave@Moon]

Today's another collusion day. As I'm typing this @ 4:00 PM about 1/2 the gas stations in Cincinnati have gone from $1.92-$1.97 (where they all were at noon) to exactly $2.24 for regular unleaded. Within an hour or so everyone within 100+ miles of here will be at that price.

[Reatta Man]

I defined collusion earlier based upon the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. Yet, you continue to use that word in spite of the fact that either this situation doesn't fit the definition of collusion, or you don't have any evidence of any such collusion.

I guess you just ignore information you don't like or 'feel' like learning.

As I said before, if you have evidence of collusion, call your law enforcement authorities. Otherwise, quit trying to define collusion based upon what you feel.

Your accusations of collusion based upon feelings and not facts add nothing to the forum.

This isn't as much of a touchy-feely world as some people would like to make it out to be.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guess you just ignore information you don't like or 'feel' like learning. </div></div>

Yeah, I ignore many things. Like the fact that you defined "fraud" and called it "collusion".

Some people ignore other things. Like ignoring the fact that price fixing among supposed competitors meets every real definition of collusion ever written. Or ignoring that the fact nice people in suits who make lots of money and vote for Republicans can commit crimes too.

Yeah, I guess people are funny that way.

[Reatta Man]

There you go again--all Republicans are bad. Republicans commit crimes.

Thanks for the name calling. <span style="font-weight: bold">This</span> is what some people refer to when they talk about how NOT to attract new members.

By the way, <span style="font-weight: bold">I</span> didn't define collusion; Merriam-Webster's online dictionary defined it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">www.m-w.com </span>

Guess you missed or ignored that, too, so this time I put it in bold type for you.

[variablepitch]

Currently regular here is $2.499 here in Eastern Washington. I was in Yakima last week and it was the same price. That's high enough already! The state legislature defeated a nine cent per gallon gas tax increase today. People screamed loud enough and they heard us.

[Guest Dynaflo2]

Hey, kids!

An interesting site I have found on this subject: www.gasbuddy.com

Enter the site, click on your state or province, and click on the link for your nearest metro area. I checked the Cincinnati gas prices and as of about an hour prior to my posting, you could find regular for about $1.92. (Just thought I'd throw that in for Dave.)

I must be off...

[Dave@Moon]

Thanks John, but I wish I could say they were a help.

One of the first things I did when I moved here and found out I'd have to deal with these collusive increases was to look for online site like gasbuddy.com to see if they'd help. (15-30% weekly spikes in the price of anything tend to make you try and defeat them!) Unfortunately <span style="font-style: italic">all of them</span> have a lag time that makes them useless when prices fluctuate so wildly. $1.92 <span style="font-style: italic">was</span> what we were paying 4 days ago.

I filled up on Wednesday morning (twice) @ $1.92 because it dropped 3 cents suddenly that day at about 1/2 the stations in town (normally a dead giveaway as to what's coming--again <span style="font-style: italic">probably</span> because the local managers are trying to help themselves and their friends). They began going up to $2.24 around 2:00 PM, and by 7:00 PM even the slowest to change stations were in line. (That's about typical.)

I drove around a little bit today, saw about 20 stations. The lowest price I saw was $2.16/gal. It <span style="font-style: italic">was</span> $1.92/gal Wednesday at both stations @ $2.16/gal today. It'll begin dropping seriously on Monday after we've all been soaked for our weekend gas.

Looking up figures for typical gas station sales I calculated that a large (20 pump) station brings in about $20,000 extra profit per day for each 25 cent collusion increase. (The station managers are quoted in the local media as actually recording <span style="font-style: italic">higher</span> sales on collusion day , but that number assumed flat sales.) There are a he!! of a lot of stations that big in this city, and a lot of stock portfolios are being nicely padded at the expense of people out getting loaves of bread and going to church. This is <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> small potatoes, it's million$!

[6219_Rules]

Collusion or not...this is Capitolism at work, and at its best. There is nothing in the very least altruistic about our form of economy. Capitolism is like nature...there are lots of opportunity to make good and do a whole lot better than survive, and it can be terribly cruel (not to anthropomorphise it) in that those who cannot or will not strive, suffer. Unfettered Capitolism as espoused by the followers of Ayn Rand see this as nothing more than survival of the fittest.

Since America is moving away from any form of moderate socialism to aid those who have not, cannot or will not, as a social evil and impediment to progress and fiscal success, the ranks of the poor is bound to expand. What is interesting is, given this trend 200 years ago, one would expect a burgening middle class but today that same middle class, is dwindling, rapidly. As government programs to help the poor, the aged and the disabled are cut, and cut massively, we can expect the numbers of the disposed to rise alarmingly. Social security had been haralded as the saviour of the retired in 1960, saving many from starvation and a lingering death of malnutrition and lack of affordible medical aid.

We are very close to returning to that situation as any who pay attention to the news (from other than the entertainment media) can well attest.

Are social controls on Capitolism natural or even desirable? What have the past 50 years demonstrated where the government became the leading agent in helping the poor to rise up or at least to survive with some dignity? There a pros and cons but overall those who believe in the Social Contract that the government, any government, holds with its society to provide for those who have not, would say overall it was a success. Capitolism was believed to have more than enough to fund it all with some left over for development. Unfettered Capitolism is more open, less controled and free of responsibility to up hold any contract other than the free and total opportunity to make a dollar multiply. It is up to the community and private funds to offer any aid to those who are rolled under before its progression.

What it finally comes down to is, you want the gas, you need the gas...then you find a way to pay for it.

You alter your budget and you plan for the increase. There are no quick fixes to supply and demand, and I doubt very much if there will be any long term answers to the oil problem.

Calculate how much oil or gas would be saved if 75% of all Americans bought a Prius today. How much would be saved in, say a summer? Would prices go down?

If you have been following the water crisis in the west, you might get a feeling for what could happen.

In Aurora, CO, the population has been strictly controlled on water usage to save water. They have done so admirably. And what was the response from the utility? They raised the cost of water per unit.

Why? Because the saving of water meant a sharp reduction in income to the utility, so it could not meet its requirements of maintenance and pay to workers, etc.. If we save and stop using petrolium, the response will most likely be a sharp increase in cost. If we do NOT save and preserve the current supply we are doomed to losing it sooner (it is inevitable that it is going to be used up because it is a limited commodity).

The Unfettered Capitolist would say that this is the true incentive to find another means to power our society. Necessity is the Mother of Invention! And who pays for this R&D is the consumer because in order for the industry to do this inventive work, they must make a profit to pay for it, to draw the scientists to work for them and allow for innovation to occur.

Face it....an increase to $3.75 a gallon is just the beginning. America is so far out of phase with the rest of the industrialized world in what she pays for petrolium, we will have to increase it a lot more just to get up to par with Europe.

Its the nature of the beast. Enjoy the price as it is...because it will only go higher. Supply and demand rests on what the market will bear. Just how much Americans can afford is yet to be seen. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Calculate how much oil or gas would be saved if 75% of all Americans bought a Prius today. How much would be saved in, say a summer? Would prices go down? </div></div>

A very thoughtful response Randall. I hope it's appreciated!

I do have one difference, that being the concept that conservation will raise the price of commodities by undermining the economies of scale in their production (essentially your water supply analogy). A lot of neo-cons like to throw that one around to scare people out of not supporting their client base as much as possible. It's not totally without merit, but it's really looking at the ripples instead of the river (the "river" being the supply/demand curve of commodity pricing).

When (<span style="font-style: italic">there is no "if"</span>) no one wants to buy Ford Expeditions or Buick Raniers because they cost too much to run, they'll be worthless. Increasing demand raises prices, lowering it lowers prices. Always...

...even for gasoline at the beginning of a shortage!

High gas prices force changes in Americans' lives, poll finds

Gas Prices Down Slightly on Lower Demand

[Reatta Man]

Wow,

I thought this was about Buicks and find out it is about wascally wepublicans and nasty neocons.

If this keeps up, Jesse Jackson will soon start posting in here with his latest "rhymes for our times."

<span style="font-weight: bold">" <span style="font-style: italic">Tody's Global Warming meeting has been cancelled due to snow."</span> --Paul Harvey, AM broadcast, 25 April 2005</span>

[Gene Brink]

Randall,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Face it....an increase to $3.75 a gallon is just the beginning. America is so far out of phase with the rest of the industrialized world in what she pays for petrolium, we will have to increase it a lot more just to get up to par with Europe.

</div></div>

Cost to produce gasoline is not as great variable through out the world as it seems as the fixed costs are pretty well set and do not vary with the price of crude oil. Taxes (which indeed are part of the price we pay for gasoline) do vary greatly through out the world. If we do not tax as they do in other places we will not pay as much for our "gasoline" (and taxes...) as in other places. We see a good example of that right now from city to city and state to state. We may well be heading for permanent +$3 per gallon gas but it will not be just because crude oil costs more.

Gotta agree with Dave. Decreased sales of gas will lead to reduced prices. Production keeps producing and the dealer has to move it out of their tanks into yours hence the incentive of lower prices <span style="font-style: italic">unless</span> the reduction is permanent. If it becomes permanent prices could increase to meet the fixed cost demands of the business' involved. The recent rage over SUV's, etc. certainly has some basis in the relative "cheapness" of gasoline and I don't see any reason the same thing would not happen again.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Cheapest gas we saw on the road this last week end was in Tulsa, OK at 1.86. 1.97 was probably the average. Back home it was still around 2.00 but today it was at a low of 1.93. I was thankful of the lower prices in that it helped keep the cost down on the trip, especially pulling a loaded trailer but something just doesn't feel right about being joyous and thankful of gas being 1.95 a gallon.

[Guest Rojo22]

MrEarl, I bought gas in my home town on Friday of last week for 179.9. It rose up a little this week, but I was packing as much in as I could get...LOL...Down here in Columbus it fell to 184.9, but it rose to 192.9 by Friday.....

[Guest AlK]

SUPPLY AND DEMAND MY BEEF-BONES. It's not Capitolism, it's out and out theft. Capitolism is selling something for a profit based on your cost. They are raising the price of gas that was taken out of the ground 2 months ago. How does the price raise on that gas that is already in the ground and don't throw supply and demand out there like it was biblical scripture. I just wish that the oil companies would be honest(?) enough to come out and say "we are going to steal every dime of yours that we can, because we can, and there is nothing you can do about it" At least that way I would not feel that I needed a jar of vaselene every time the price went up. At least if you are going to bump uglys with me have the decency to kiss me first!!!!!!!!!!

P.S.

Who gives a rats patoot what europe is paying for gas. This idea that because Europe is paying $3 to $7 a gal that it automatically stands to reason that we should too, BULL-PUCKY. Most of their price is goverment taxes. They should send us every drop of oil that they can FOR FREE. We have re-built their entire countries and economies at least twice. And everytime they are in trouble we send them aid or bail their sorry asses out for them, but when we need help we are told to go kiss our own backside. Let Europe fend for themselves for once.

[ranchero]

It is capitalism; it is supply and demand. Right now we have a huge supply of refined fuels available; the retail price has diminished a bit. And don't suggest the oil majors are other than "honest" with you. Those companies are owned by investor/shareholders; they report quarterly results as required. The obligation of the oil company is not to provide you with what you consider reasonably priced fuel or to provide you with what you feel is "honest" information. The obligation of the oil company is to make a profit in order to provide a return to the owner/investors. The fuel provided by the majors is a bargain. What price did you pay for fuel thirty years ago? Maybe 50 cents a gallon? My local price is down now to $2.04. The price of a gallon of fuel has roughly quadrupled in thirty years. Again, it is a bargain. How many times have the prices of a new home, medical care, a new Buick, a movie ticket or your local property taxes multiplied in those thirty years? I will submit the multiple is many more than four times. I suggest you buy shares of Exxon/Mobil or Chevron or Conoco/Phillips. Being an owner gives a better perspective; you might not feel so bad at fuel stops when you are an owner of a major petroleum producer.

With respect from an investor/capitalist - Ranchero

[Dave@Moon]

This week's mid-west "honest" collusion increase: from $1.84/gal to $2.09/gal on Tuesday around 12:00 noon. It's back down to $1.99 in many places now that the weekend is here. Isn't that nice of them!

With respect from a victim.

[Reatta Man]

On the Northeast side of San Antonio, it is as low as $1.83 per gallon, but in some areas, the stations are still around $1.90-$1.94.

Keep an eye on the news to see how King Fahd of Saudi Arabia is doing. He's in his 80s and not doing too well for the past few years. If he passes away, the government should pass to his son, who has been conducting day-to-day business for some time. However, if the radicals from other countries see this as a time to try to seize control or start some kind of revolution during the transition, it could destabilize the area. Bottom line: a rough transition could result in a short-term disruption in the supply.

Joe

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

[page2171]

Just got home from a trip to see family in Minnesota. Filled up just west of Albert Lea, MN and paid $1.85/gal for 87 octane ($1.80 if you paid inside) get back home here in southeast WI gas is $2.14 (thanks WI for that gas tax). Just to spite our governor (I thought about flipping the bird toward the state capital while I did it, but then reconsidered) I topped off the tank just before crossing into WI. I'm not sure where all that gas tax money is going, except for that Marquette Interchange project in Milwaukee (those of you in the Milwaukee area know what I'm talking about), which when is it completed still won't handle enough traffic, but will look a whole lot prettier. Anyway, enough of my rambling, just wanted to post my experience this weekend.

[Bill Stoneberg]

We have just driven from Houston to Fargo and are about to head back.

We have paind under 2.00 on the interstates the whole way.

Today we get off the interstates and on to the backroads.

[HurstGN]

I AGREE 100% with AlK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is capitalism; it is supply and demand. Right now we have a huge supply of refined fuels available; the retail price has diminished a bit. And don't suggest the oil majors are other than "honest" with you. Those companies are owned by investor/shareholders; they report quarterly results as required. The obligation of the oil company is not to provide you with what you consider reasonably priced fuel or to provide you with what you feel is "honest" information. The obligation of the oil company is to make a profit in order to provide a return to the owner/investors. <snip></div></div>

ENOUGH of the BS or I'm gonna puke!

There is NO honesty in the oil business. NONE! We're lied to every day. Like AlK said, give me the vasoline before sneaking up behind me mr big oil company.

A bear sneezes in the woods...economists predict a rise in oil prices in the future because a bear needs oil to burn to keep warm (environmentalists be damned) and the oil companies raise the price at the pumps $.05 due to the prediction. I'm screwed.

The price of oil actually does rise 2 weeks later to X+$2, again oil companies raise the pump price another $.05 to cover the new higher price. The "honest" excuse is they now pay more for oil, so I should too. I'm screwed again.

A week later, the price of oil drops back to X. The pump prices remain the same. The "honest" excuse is the oil in the pipeline cost more, and till that supply runs out, and the newer processed crude is being pumped, the oil company must charge for the oil as it paid for it. Odd, this instant raise in prices I experienced last week was because prices went up. I get it, when prices go up, gas goes up. When prices come down, gas remains the same for a long time. Hrmmm, again, I'm screwed.

It's now weeks later, and the oil companies "honestly" said that prices would fall in several weeks. Today, oil is still at X dollars per barrel. Today, the price goes UP another $.07 a gallon. WHAT?!?! Why did the price go up?!? Oh, remember the bear in the woods with a head cold....well, we have to help stop greenhouse gasses so the tree he sh*#s under will still grow. Remember, a bear does sh*# in the woods, and it's June...time for the "honest" reformulated fuel for the summer!! And you know, "honestly", this fuel costs more to make, so we had to raise the price. I'm screwed again.

To be totally "honest", we know by the end of summer, we'll have stuck it to you so many times, that you'll be happy to pay $2.00 a gallon. Don't expect to see us lower that average price anytime soon. Yea, as long as you own that car of yours, we'll keep you on the Hershey highway to happiness with "honest" reports of how we've made record profits for our investors. MUHAHAHAHAHA! Now don't you wish you were that bear in the woods? All he's got is a pesky hemmoriod from having to wipe with a piece of tree bark and no Prep H to help.

So, the morale of our story....the oil companies really ARE "honest", because they file annual reports, and all our price woes are because of a bear that took a dump in the woods!!

Oil companies just make me sick!!

[ranchero]

HurstGN - The oil giants have no obligation to explain or justify to you their pricing structure. If you don't like the way they price fuels, don't use what they sell. The major oils exercise integrity in the quarterly and annual reporting to their shareholders/owners. They have a great record with investors - through good management they increase the per share value of the investment and they also increase the quarterly per share dividend paid to owners. They have no obligation to please you - none. Again, if you so dislike them, then simply use less or none of their product. Spend it on beer or bottled water or milk or Coca Cola. Of course those may even cost even more per gallon. Over the weekend the local unleaded regular price dropped to $2.02, with $1.99 reported at one station. Respectfully submitted - Ranchero

[25Buick25]

I read somewhere (it may have been on this board) that prices change to reflect the <span style="font-style: italic">cost to replace existing supplies</span> (wow, I used italics!). Yes, they already have the gas in the tank underground, so how can they raise prices???? Well, once the tank's empty they gotta buy more gas and it will be more expensive. I think most commoddities (sp?) work that way, even milk and butter and grocerys. I don't know how honest the oil companies are, but if you weren't buying it, they'd charge less.....supply vs. demand. Maybe they have us by the short hairs because we have a whole economy based on gasoline, but who's fault is that?????? The oil companys didn't force all of us to buy a SUV. If it was you, would you do any different? Woudn't you want to make as much money as you could if you had a product that everyone is buying???? They could raise prices even more and we will still buy the stuff, so why don't they????? My mother always said "if you don't like it, don't eat it." Seems like that would work here to. If you don't like the high prices, find a way to save money on gas. I know I just sold my Corvette because I couldnt afford to drive it as much as I used to. Now I drive a used Ford Focus to work and get 32mPG! That put money back in my wallet, I"ll tell you that much. I didn't like it, so I stopped eating it...............

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The oil giants have no obligation to explain or justify to you their pricing structure. [color:\\"red\\"]If you don't like the way they price fuels, don't use what they sell.</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Is there one person who read this post and thought Ranchero really meant it? <span style="font-weight: bold">One?</span></span> I like when people use convoluted logic and massive denial to ease their conscience. It's getting harder to cash that $1.50+/share dividend check w/o serious guilt, isn't it?

Today's "honest" collusion increase, $1.89-$1/92/gal raised to $2.13/gal at every station in town within 1 hour at 1:00PM. (They're getting better at this!)

"Enjoy" it while it lasts.

[Reatta Man]

I've been paying about $1.83-1.88 here in San Antonio in the past week, including over the Memorial Day holiday. That reminds me--thanks to all the WWII, Korea and Vietnam vets--those who served before I had my chance to serve in Panama and in Desert Storm.

Oh, by the way--picked up a 2000 Buick Park Avenue Ultra over the weekend from Ken Batchelor Cadillac here in San Antonio. OH MY what a car!!! And, yes, it IS the 3.8 engine that takes premium gas. If you get the chance, buy an Ultra and treat yourself to something incredible! Forget about hybrids--USA Today and Edmunds have shown them to not be cost effective. Their findings are at:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-05-31-hybrid-costs-usat_x.htm

When driving and then buying the car, I couldn't believe the business the Cadillac dealer was doing. They also sell Hummers, and the people in looking at H3 models and Cadillac Escalades was unbelievable. When I asked about what kind of month they were having, they told me it wasn't good, it was great. They said the gas prices have them amazed--the more they go up, the more high-end cars they sell!

By the way, be sure to see the new post I will add in a few minutes about how EVERYONE can buy a GM car at the GM employee price. This is the FIRST time GM has EVER done this. Bottom line--go buy a new Buick!

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I asked about what kind of month they were having, they told me it wasn't good, it was great. They said the gas prices have them amazed--the more they go up, the more high-end cars they sell! </div></div>

In <span style="font-weight: bold">Texas?</span> There's a shock! One wonders if the Kuwaiti amd Venezuelan Mercedes dealers might be having problems.

[Reatta Man]

Enjoy your little Prius. Just don't get into an accident with an SUV.

[ranchero]

Dave@Moon: "Ranchero really meant it?" Of course I mean it. If you do not like the price of fuel then the smart thing to do is to drive a Prius, I guess. Or maybe ride a motorcycle in the summer (as I do)? Or how about one of those cute Vespas they sell in downtown Denver? Or, if you live in a big city you could ride the bus or tram or whatever serves your neighborhood. A consumer does not need to use V-8 Buicks. I like them & I certainly don't care what the price of fuel is when I go to the pump. Dave@Moon, I think you are silly to be such an enviro and consumer geek when the cost of the fuel has not increased as much as inflation and when the enviro concerns have all been addressed and diminished over the years. Though they look similar in profile, I would much prefer to drive my full sized Roadmaster Estate Wagon than your 5/8 scale Prius. I've got safety, good fuel mileage, fine performance, cheap insurance, great comfort and a bargain priced car. You spent $29K for outstanding fuel mileage, unproven (Toyota has a recall on the Prius) technology, no performance, no safety, unknown after warranty availability of complicated electronic parts, unknown after warranty repair cost and an even uglier car than my Roadmaster. I got a car and you got a weenie-mobile. I am willing to pay for fuel for a man's V-8; you are not. How does that Prius go up hills in Cincinnati? Very truly yours - Ranchero

[Reatta Man]

Don't worry, Ranchero.

Between 1) the high costs to buy it not being offset by the 'economy' of the thing, 2)reports of high insurance costs, 3)a little-known disclaimer in the owner's manual that could allow Toy to void the warranty and 4)the stalling problem that is being investigated by the feds, she'll be back driving a Buick.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Bloomberg Reports on Stalling Problem:</span>

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000101&sid=a_VMu.uJAcLI

<span style="font-weight: bold">Results of edmunds.com findings stating hybrids are bad for the wallet:</span>

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/01/hybrid/index.html?section=cnn_latest

<span style="font-weight: bold">Owners finding high costs for repairs and not charging the battery leads to "neglegence not covered by warranty."</span>

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_battery.html

<span style="font-weight: bold">Owners complaining of Toyota Prius high insurance costs:</span>

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_insurance.html

Yeah, I know...I'm 'only' getting 26-29 MPG with my Ultra, but hey, it doesn't stall at 65 MPH! Woo Hoo! My biggest problem with the car since buying it Saturday? Keeping my wife from taking it away from me for "a week or so."

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

"Weenie-mobile"? "A man's V-8"? "Enviro and consumer geek"? You want people to take you seriously with attitudes like <span style="font-style: italic">that</span>?

Believe whatever lies you want (and there isn't one perception in your last post that comes close to reality), it won't matter. Your world is about to get a lot harder to live in. I feel sorry for you.

[Dave@Moon]

...& Joe.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

OK kids, don't make me have to come back there...