A Serious Question

[Guest]

This is a serious inquiry and not an attempt to start a controversy.

Please read all the details and then would it be possible to get an answer from someone who knows the answer and has the authority to answer. Comment from others is invited.

In 1980 and other years, the Shay company manufactured a replica of the 1929 Model A Ford roadster. It is a vehicle produced in quantity and sold to the general public by a legitimate manufacturer of motor vehicles. No doubt several hundred or more were produced and sold to the public.

The 1980 model is now 25 years old. My question is, can this vehicle be shown and toured in AACA.

It IS a production car by definition above, so can it be shown in Class 27n?

It IS a legitimately produced vehicle so can it be shown in the DPC class?

It IS a legitimately produced vehicle so can it participate on a Founders Tour?

I do not dispute that this is a Replicar which in the past have NOT been accepted, but is this not also now a legitimately produced and sold vehicle for the 1980 model year?

I do not own one one of these vehicles nor would I ever want to and I am not representing someone who does, but I believe this to be a legitimate question to be addressed by the Judging Committee and the AACA Board.

This inquiring mind wants to know.

Perhaps we might possibly need a class for 25 year old and older replicars which were legitimately produced for sale to the public by legitimate manufacturers. Maybe for exhibition only.

Howard Scotland

[Shop Rat]

A very interesting question. Can't wait to see the answer on this one.

[DaveBerg]

As I recall the policy was that "Any vehicle made to replicate another vehicle could not be shown at an AACA National Meet." I believe the policy was first thought of with reference to the Merry Oldsmobile, a sort of Curved Dash Olds replica originally built in 1958 or so. Judging committee has followed suit with this policy and to the best of my knowledge it has not been changed. It is a really good question and frankly, doesn't come up for discussion all that often. The irony of the question Howard is that I really thought it was you that originally answered this question for me, a million or so years ago.

[DaveBerg]

To continue briefly. Judging committee has explored the possibility of a class for these replicars. To date those conversations have never gotten very serious. So to further look at the question, a class for these vehicles could be a possibility down the road. I dont see it happened anytime real soon though unless enough people want it. Sorry I should have read the question more carefully and commented all at once.

[Guest]

Dave, you may well be correct about you and me and this question a million years ago, give or take year.

Back then there were not all that many replicars that were 25 years old, maybe only the Merry Oldsmobile if that. However, today there are numerous such replicars reaching the age of 25 years. Does age trump replicar status, or is it the other way around?

I'm not championing anything, but I believe the time has come for the Judging Committee and the Board to look at this again in light of the 25 year rule along with what constitutes a legitimately manufactured and sold vehicle.

I personally don't want them judged or on the Founders Tour, but it might be well to review the issue before somebody who does starts a campaign. I don't think that the powers that be can hide from this issue or hope to ignore it to death.

Just my opinion.

HVS

[1937hd45]

Howard, I saw them when they were new, they were CRAP then, and age has not improved them or changed my opinion.

[ronbarn]

The Shay, from a reasonable distance, almost looked like a 1929 Ford Model A. However, an inspection of the one I saw several years ago, revealed not one single reference to Ford or 1929. It was the "Model A". There was no attempt to "replicate" the engine, suspension, and many other parts. I do not know how it was advertised - was it sold as an independent car or sold as a replicar.

These cars (and some others) were made by a legitimate manufacturer for sale to the public. They were also made in limited numbers. Don't know if that was due to the lack of market attraction or because they were never intended to be "mass produced". They are certainly not 1929 autos. But what about consideration as Designated Limited Production and Prototype vehicles, Class 35, and only for the year(s) they were actually produced - NOT the year they were supposely intended to look like. I do not know the HP or wheelbase, so cannot narrow the suggestion to 35a or 35b.

This would require specific approval by the Judging Committee and AACA Board to be "Designated" just like the other cars in that class, rather than just open up a Replicar class. It would also potentially prevent home built replicas from being accepted.

This of course brings up the question of the difference between a "replicar" and a fraudulent rebodied or "upgraded" car. These have appeared in many classes and have become a problem in the muscle car classes.

[1937hd45]

Where will the T buckets built by Total Performance fit into this new AACA class? I think they have built something like 10,000 since the copmpany started in the 1960's. Their Model A roadster actualy looks like a 1930-31 Ford and the parts will interchange with an original. They are an established manufacturer, just like Shay, only differance is Total is still in business.

[nearchoclatetown]

Howard, I know this is differant, but it's the same too. What about the Cobras that Shelby "found" serial number tags for and made a few years ago with '65-66 titles? I think he calls them continuation cars. Was wondering this during the BJ auction last weekend?

[Guest]

Bob ~ I don't disagree with your opinion of the product and certainly the engine it uses probably fits your description too. However, the car that engine was built for was also CRAP and it is accepted.

There are a lot of other long recognized cars that are CRAP, so that probably is not justification for disallowing a vehicle. My VW Thing is <span style="font-weight: bold">REALLY CRAP</span> and it is a legitimate show and tour car.

What I am trying to have decided is what are these cars now that they are 25 years old.

HV

[Rick Hoover]

Whether we like it or not, they are called antique automobiles Howard. {And I don't.}

[1937hd45]

What are they? I guess they are corporate produced Street Rods.

[Twitch]

The NHRA has a class for every vehicle that is legally entered at one of their sanctioned events. They include bone stock classifications and sub categories depending on the amount of modification. So I have a simple question for anyone involved in classifications in any antique or classic organization- why is there no class for replicars? Is is an elitist thing?

If a car like a real live bone stock 29 Ford showed up at an NHRA event they are capable of classifying it to compete with any other car due to the handicapping system that allows equal but different competitors to compete. It could run on even terms with a 62 Falcon 6 cyl. with the Falcon leaving the line later due to predetermined performance indexing. Theoretically both cars arrive at the finish line at the same time. Of course that doesn't happen and that's what makes the competition interesting.

Instead of thumping the book of by laws as the final authority perhaps a new category should be instated. There were several quite pricey replicas that are 25 years old now. Cord, Auburn, Mercedes 540K replicas come to mind but they're a few more. It's sublimely ironic that production replicars that were priced in the $30-50,000 range decades ago are excluded while a cheap but original design like the Ford Pinto is!!!

The question about the Shelby cars was one I was going to bring up as well. Would a 2003 Shelby with a 1965 title be legal in most auto club enclaves?!?! In 2030 will there be a class for the 2005 Ford GT-40 that differs from the GT-40 class of 1965? This also is basically a continuation of production in many ways. Where does that put the many excellent factory(but not Shelby) manufactured replicas that usually had/have $40-70,000 stickers them?

I don't have a replicar nor do I truly care a hoot for them. These thoughts are meant for no group in particular so don't take any offense, please. I say forget the mumbo jumbo of the past and get up to date with realistic classifications.

Howard asked for feedback and this is mine.

[1937hd45]

Have we really run out of cheap four door sedans, and have to think about Shay replicas?

[Guest]

Thanks Twitch. I asked for feedback because I wanted an open discussion of the subject. All input is valuable because sooner or later the powers that be will <span style="font-weight: bold">HAVE</span> to deal with this issue. The resulting decision should reflect the thoughts of many, not just the few.

So, with that thought I offer this. The Zimmer is not a replica of anything. It is a vehicle that was manufactured and offered for sale to the public. Where does it belong when the first one becomes 25 years old, which will happen.

hvs

[Guest]

Bob ~ It has never been about good or bad, ugly or beautiful, cheap or expensive, well engineered or junk. It has always been about 25 years old and older. We have never ruled out another man's junk so long as it was a legitimately manufactured vehicle and was 25 years old or older.

To Everyone ~ I am not leading a crusade. I am only trying to get open discussion of a subject that is now upon us and must be addressed. I don't particularly care about the final outcome, just that some decision be made. There is a question. Let there be an answer.

hvs

[nearchoclatetown]

Twitch, in answer to your question about the GT40, the 2 cars would certainly be in differant classes just as a '65 sedan and '05 sedan are differant by age alone. I no more want to see a Shay compete then a Datsun, but they are a seperate car co. therefore I see no reason they should not be aloud. Do a search on Shay Model A, they were granted exemption from safety laws because of making less then 10,000 cars, had no connection to Ford other then Ford dealers were to sell them.

[HarryJ]

Howard..... Wasn't the Shay just a fibre glass body on someone else's chassis? But this brings into question the Brewster and today's Studebaker Avanti, both of which are or have been marketed to the buying public. I think of these and other of their ilk as oddities. The Shay was not built to be a daily driver or family workhorse, but as a toy in my opinion. On a personal basis I vote "no", as to accepting them as legitimate antique automobiles.

[1937hd45]

Horard, I think a class for snowmobiles is a more pressing issue that the Shay fake model a.

[Guest]

Bob ~ And farm tractors and manure spreaders. And why not washing machines 25 years and older with 4 wheels.

I don't want the Shay in there either, but someone is going to push the issue sooner or later. Lets decide what it is now rather than later.

And please guys, don't kill the messinger for asking the question.

hvs

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, funny that you would say snowmobiles. Latimore {EMMR} now has a display of racing snowmobiles. You know something we don't?

[1937hd45]

[ronbarn]

The AACA Official Vehicle Classification states, "By definition, "Vehicle" means ANY highway motor vehicle including race type vehicles and "Year" means MODEL year." This is exactly as written in the Official Judging Rules and Guidelines. By this definition farm tractors, manure spreaders, and snowmobiles would be excluded. I cannot find, in the 2004 manual, a reference to "Replicars" (this could be due to some limitation of my eyesight). Maybe someone else can find it. If it does not exist in official documentation, is there a problem? Maybe this whole thread is addressing a "verbal policy" or some policy stated in previous guidelines, which is no longer valid.

[Shop Rat]

An additional question. As far as racecars go, do they have to have been "street legal" to qualify to be shown under the AACA rules?

Racecars such as our Legends car have never been street legal as they are produced strictly for racing.

[1937hd45]

All vehicles that are shown in class 24A,B,&C have to be "Documented" by the "Certification Committee" You must prove the car you have did race, pick a date that the race occured and that the chassis is in fact the one from that vehicle. With all the lookalike Legends cars out there it will be tought to do 25 years from now, to say nothing about the 25+ cars every NASCAR Cup team has.

[Twitch]

Someone spoke of a bodies on other chassis. OK, what about the Avanti with GM running gear? The guy that manufacturers them owns the Studebaker license and name for them court-of-law legally so technically he IS Studebaker.

There have been tons of legally manufacturered cars in low or limited production all over the world that technically qualify under 10,000 units. Speaking of the body manufacturered going on the chassis of another company, it happened all the time. Briggs bodies on Packard chassis for example. How many different body manufacturers crafted skins for Ferrari over the years? Scagletti, Pininfarina and very many more.

The whole question has been answered by it's very nature- You call the vehicle a Shay for the manufacturer. THAT'S what it is. It is not a Ford-produced Model A nor is anyone saying it is. It minicks it in basic visuals only. Many contemorary cars mimick one another in the styling departments as they always have. Is it likely that these Shay owners would lobby that the cars be admitted and recognized as Ford A Models? No. Just as I mentioned rhetorically about the 1965 Ford GT-40 vs the 2005 GT-40 being the same car. They're not even though they ARE both built by Ford.

All replica-type autos bear the names of their manufacturers apart from the popularist names of Cord, 540K or, in this case, Model A. The vast majpority of the unwashed public would consider the danged thing a classic if the criteria were that it was a legitimately manufacturered vehicle 25 years or older.

I'd have to say I figure there are a number of marques owned by folks that have no interest or need to be recognized by any organization. Certainly they could care less if a bunch of old pharts throw black marbles in a hat in a secret ballot that excludes their vehicle from the hallowed halls of acceptance by a small clique of purists when the whole world would say, "Hey, cool car."

The Zimmer is one I couldn't think of Howard. But you are correct. A 1980 Zimmer is technically a classic just as a Maverick Vega or Gremlin is. There are those who feel only vehicles from the 1930s are true classics and the popularist 50s,60s,70s cars are too common and owned by too many folks. Well la-dee-da!

There are legions of people that have or will build (restore) all sorts of cars that want or need no connection with any national organization in order to feel validated in their hobby. When the 1973 Z-28, one of 11,000 built, that I bought new became 25 in 1998 I could have cared less. So what? Do I get a prize? And just because we're online doesn't mean everyone in the vast automotive hobby arena is. Most are NOT. Most never heard of the various national "old car" organizations. And if they had, they don't care. They move in their own spheres of auto hobby influence. If they rebuilt a 37 Ford they don't care that there are purists who would faint at their implementation of disc brakes, a period supercharger on the flathead and A/C so they can actually comfortably drive the car for extended periods. There are loads of talented individuals who are able to do things like that who never did and never will need somone elses approval for what they do.

Perhaps the question here should be not whether an auto organization should accept the Shay. Do the Shay owners care to be associated with or recognized by any "official" car organization?

[Jack Harlin]

I'm no longer a member so mabe I shouldnt respond "BUT"

Going back when the club was formed if you drove an old car you were considered as being a little nuts. Some looked at it as if it should have been junked. It was a small group that formed & am sure it was never expected to grow so large. A/C didnt appear in cars till mabe a dozen 39 Packards, had it. along with all the other things we have today. For years Northern cars werent ordered with air. Judging then wasnt a problem but when restoring came about it became a poker game, the one with the most money won. Then later to win they had to be over restored to win. The modifing came about with Interstate & other roads were built & the higher speeds required to keep up. This was never considered when AACA was formed, driving from the North to Florida & not seeing a signal light. Now most any thing goes but not so with the clubs rules. Its a very difficult task as what changes to make, if any?? Jack

[Guest]

Ron ~ A verbal policy isn't worth the paper it is written on. [sam Goldwin]

Twitch ~ Your quote --- Do the Shay owners care to be associated with or recognized by any "official" car organization?

Yes, some do and are, but their cars cannot be shown or toured. Like you, I don't know if they want them to be, but I'll bet some do. A 25 year old Shay is no different from a 25 year old Yugo or a 25 year old Tribant. Not all that great, but the last two are eligible to be shown and toured.

Ain't logic hell?

hvs

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I had my '29 Ford parked right next to a Shay at a local car show. His windshield placard said "'29 Ford Model A." I have to admit that ticked me off. I never saw the guy. He must have just dropped it off and went home. If he wants to admit it's a replica, then fine, but don't try to pass it off as a '29. That's like giving your fiance a Zircon!

If the AACA wants to make a class for replica's that are 25 years old, I have no problem. Just list them as the real year model.

[Idle Swede]

I do it all the time, (much cheaper)

My wife gets the real stuff though.

[Shop Rat]

Not a problem with the documentation as we are the only owners of the car and we have race results and photos of it racing.

My question was based on Ron's answer and it mentioned highway ready or something like that. Legends cars are not street legal, but are true racecars.

[ronbarn]

Twitch, you are right about many people in the hobby not caring about what we do. One reputable tool supplier, primarily serving the hobby, sends out 2,000,000 catalogs and we only have around 55,000 to 60,000 members. However to suggest that we are bunch of elitists because we make classification rules when nobody cares is unwarranted. There are club members who have these cars, and potentially some others who might be members if AACA provides a place for their vehicles. And yes there have been Shay owners who would like to enter their cars.

Jack, Modified cars existed long before there were interstates, in fact they existed long before there was an AACA. Yes, there are people in our club who go almost orbital when the subject of modified vehicles is broached. I am not one of them, but I personally prefer vehicles in their original state and thus belong to a club that fits my preferrences.

The Avanti II is certainly an acceptable car even though is has a GM drivetrain. It is not a replica, but a legitimate manufactured car that continued to use the body molds after Studebaker went out of business and sold the rights to manufacturer of that car. As for the many makes of cars that have been produced with custom bodies such as the ones mentioned above, AACA liberally defines the "factory" as being an extension of the chassis factory to include the custom body maker. We would certainly look foolish if we refused to judge a Dietrich bodied Packard which was subsequently sold as a Packard.

As mentioned earlier AACA vehicles must have been able to have been street legal - with the exception of race cars that are proven to be legitimate, i.e. actually have raced (ask Bob for more details about the race car approval procedures). There was one interesting case where a 1957 Bugatti won a First Junior (I may have the date wrong, but it's close enough to make the point). This was obviously long after Bugatti went out of business. The car was a Bugatti and it participated in races in 1957, the owner proved it and thus the dating of the vehicle to when it raced, not when it was made. Many documented race cars, for example Indy 500 cars, were never street legal but are accepted by AACA.

Calling a Shay a "1929 Ford Model A" may appear ridiculous on the surface, but it happens as noted above. In fact until recently a Shay owner could have registered his car in my state as a "1929 Ford Model A" and I believe this practice existed in some other states. A man I know had his VW powered replicar registered at the DMV as a 1928 Mercedes. Fortunately, the law has been changed to prohibit this practice.

Now. back to the subject. Howard - good quote. That is my point. I know that at one time it was very clear in the old Judging Manual that replicars were not judged. I cannot find that prohibition in the 2004 guidelines. Was it intentionally or unintentionally deleted? Or am I just not able to find it?

[Shop Rat]

Ron, Thanks for clarifying that racecars do not have to have been street legal to be eligible to show at AACA events when they are twenty-five years old. I may just make Bill keep the Legends another fifteen years and it can be my vehicle to show. Not sure which should retired from racing first, the car or Bill. If he raced it until it could be shown he would be 75 years old.

[nearchoclatetown]

To clarify or confuse the Avanti issue, there are actually 3 differant Avantis. One was the Studaclunker known as the Avanti made in about '63. Second was the Avanti II which had Chevy drivetrain in about '67, looked like the Studi, but still made by a manufacture. Third is a late model Camaro or Firebird with Avanti looking nose and tail, sold as an Avanti. At least in Pa. it required a reconstructed title. The last version was sold as recent as 3-5 years ago, even as a convertible. I'm sure this last version will never be accepted in the AACA, but the first 2 are. Now back to the Shay, if the car is built and sold as a seperate car, why shouldn't it eligible to compete? I'm assuming the title says the make is Shay and the year is 1980. And no one has answered my question about the Cobras that were "legally" built by Shelby within the last 10 years, but are titled as '65-66. They are known as Continuation Cobras.Are they able to be shown in AACA now?

[Guest]

Swede ~ God bless our wives and lovers --- may they never meet.

HV

[Guest]

Choc ~ Probably nobody has answered your question directly because it it is a trickey issue. But based on what we seem to be leaning toward here relative to the Shay should also be applicable to the Continuation Cobras --- <span style="font-weight: bold">IN ABOUT 15 YEARS.</span>

They would be 1990 something cars no matter what the builder wants to call them. Just as a 1980 Shay is a 1980 car and not a 1929.

hvs

[Dynaflash8]

If the DMV accepts a car, gives it a title, issues it tags,it's a car, right? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Seems simple to me. Nothing is forever and time changes all things. But, of course, a 1980 Shay is still a 1980 Shay, not a Model A. Hey, that rhimed! Reminds me of what my violen teacher said one time, "a 500 year old Stradivarius is still a Stradivarius, but a 500 year old crack box is still a cracker box." Just thinking out loud.

[HarryJ]

Dynaflash8.......Excellent point. If the DMV will license it, it must be a car. I believe the primary goal of this organization should be to preserve the history of the evolution of the automobile; copies included.

[ply33]

Seems like this topic was "discussed" a while back:

CLICK HERE

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dynaflash8.......Excellent point. If the DMV will license it, it must be a car. I believe the primary goal of this organization should be to preserve the history of the evolution of the automobile; copies included. </div></div>

Well, here in Connecticut the DMV gives out boat license plates, will this exclude the guys with sail boats, or do they have to install an outboard?