Buick confirms plans to add rear drive sedan, drop old names

[Redrob]

From GMInside news......mostly just confirmation of rumors.

NEW YORK - To shed its stodgy image, Buick will drop two venerable names-Park Avenue and LeSabre.

A premium rear-wheel-drive sedan will replace the Park Avenue in 2006, say two General Motors sources. GM plans to develop the rwd sedan off the company's new Zeta global vehicle architecture.

Meanwhile, GM will find a new name for the LeSabre's replacement when it arrives next year.

Robert Lutz, GM's vice chairman for product development, said he eventually wants to position Buick against Lexus. But GM can't charge higher prices until Buick's brand equity improves, he said at the New York auto show.

"We have to earn the brand equity back by offering a luxury car bargain," Lutz said.

The LeSabre was introduced in 1959. The Park Avenue became a distinct nameplate in 1991. It previously was a trim line on the Buick Electra.

[NTX5467]

I saw an article at www.autochannel.com that mentioned that the replacement for Park Avenue would not be here until about 2007 or so, which would be rear wheel drive when it arrives. The LeSabre replacement will be in 2006 and front wheel drive. No mention that I recall of the LeSabre name changing, though. We've understood that the Park Avenue name would go away when the current version is replaced.

Brand equity does not necessarily mean putting a new name up for a vehicle, but making the replacement vehicle a better and more competitive vehicle in all respects. A new name will give people a reason to check out "The New Buick" instead of a new model of an existing name. Look at the rave reviews the Chrysler 300's getting with the new vehicle that name is now attached to--and THAT's a name that predates LeSabre AND Park Avenue as production vehicle names!

I know, some of the high faluttin' marketing types think everything's got to be new, but Chrysler has proved that does NOT have to be the case if the vehicle attached to the existing name is a much improved and high value vehicle. Is Chrysler setting a new trend?

If a vehicle's going to have perceived high value, it needs to have a glamourous name and then deliver on the high style and content--no "fluff" allowed. Leave all of the "alphabet soup" names to the Germans. Let's put some pizzazzzzz back into Buick with a snazzy car and a similarly snazzzzyyy name, which (the names) Park Avenue and LeSabre tend to be. High fashion, high content, high glamour, high performance, high comfort, high value--wasn't that Buick in the middle 1950s? It CAN happen again and it I hope it does!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[BUICK RACER]

Yeah, and look what happened to Oldsmobile, they changed all the names and went kaput! I'd much rather see the old names stay, and new models keep the nostalgic touch that way. I'd rather have a Riviera than a Velite or a Regal than a LaCrosse, etc. But I'll probably never ever own a new Buick anyway, in fact I've only owned one new one that was mine('79 Skyhawk disaster) and 4 that I ordered for my Mom! I'm not sure what her next car will be, but it may not be a Buick, as much as I hate say it! (Although it will still have to be a GM product!)

[Reatta Man]

Roberta,

I understand what you mean about your next car possibly not being a Buick.

Last year, when shopping for a new car with my wife (for her to drive) we were looking at the Regal GS. I liked the content of the car, but didn't like the fact that the 3.8SC engine HAD to have premium unleaded. Now that premium is nearly $2 per gallon here in Texas, that is proving to be a good choice. While shopping, we compared the Regal to a LOADED Impala LS. The Impala had MORE content than the Regal (OnStar and XM radio) a better price by about $2K and it had the non-supercharged Buick 3.8 under the hood. We bought the Impala.

As for the Buick vs. Lexus arguement, all that means to me is $$$. Buick (GM and Lutz) are trying to find a way to raise prices, lower or do away with rebates, and generally make as little real content change as possible. Buick is a good car, used to be a great car, but with "fire sale" rebates ranging up to $5K and only a three year warranty, they will have to change more than the name to compete.

Cadillac has had some sucess, but I think they have planted seeds that are going to come back to hurt them later. That is because the Northstar engine is a money pit to work on once the warranty expires, and it is NOT a perfect engine. If Buick tries to beat Toyota (Lexus) with gee whiz complicated electronics and engines, they will scare away their traditional buyers, and loose the battle for new buyers if they don't make nearly bulletproof cars.

I hope Buick gets it right this time.

[Redrob]

What everyone has to remember is that Buick really has two problems, a product problem and an image problem. The current cars are good, dependable and reliable, but not really good enough to excel in todays marketplace. Now Buick has a new and more vibrant product focus besides AARP buyers. Buick is committing itself to bring to market more interesting, feature laden, desirable cars and trucks to attract new buyers. Face it, Century's and LeSabre's are very good and high quality cars, but some of the dullest on the road today. The LaCrosse, LeSabre replacement, Ranier and the rest are a step in the right direction. Buick's mission in the marketplace has always been premium, comfortable, desirable cars. If Lexus has done a better job of being Buick than Buick has, at least we've woken up and we're moving in the right direction.

The other problem is just as large if not larger, and that is image. I'm a Buick fanatic like the rest of you, but even General Motors management fully admits how tired and stodgy the current Buick image is. Buick's demographics are the oldest in all of GM, and the current buying populace is downsizing to wheelchairs and they aren't being replaced fast enough. Buick needs to reinvent itself, as soon as possible, or GM might as well end the marque like poor Oldsmobile. In my opinion, even though I love the idea of beloved names like Riviera and Skylark coming back and LeSabre lasting forever, that's not the new image Buick needs to have to capture new buyers. LeSabre is one of the oldest continuing nameplaces at GM right now. When Buick redesigned in 1959, they said the cars were so new they demanded new names. Well, Buick is in the same spot right now. The new LaCrosse could have easily been badged Regal, but Buick needs the symbolic break with the past, that they are starting anew.

Like all of you, I hope Buick roars back, stronger than ever. It's happened before, and it can happen again, if Buick and GM does it right. I think they've made a good start at a new image. I'm eagerly waiting for the new products. Time will tell.

[Guest imported_arbys]

Buick may consider dropping a few names while other car makers are going back to nostalgic names (Chrysler 300 , Chevy Malibu , Chevy Impala SS ). These names got your adrenelin going just thinking about them.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I'm hopeing they dont drop the old names too but maybe its best, what do I know ? Rumors I have heard are Lucerne for a LeSabre, I dont know for the PA, and I guess if they do release the Velite convertable it may go Riviera. There talking to far off on that Velite for me, I believe they will blow it if they wait till 07. Wait for 07 for anything as far as that goes. It will be old news and tired and dated by that time.

I cant see that LaCrosse making an impact on Lexus, Inifiniti, or BMW & Audi types anyhow. Sorry but it just isnt that sexy. Visable silly black plastic "air damn" on the bottom of the core support instead of molded into the front bumper cover or at least hidden by it. That C pillor/rear window is so conservative it is a snore. Then its got rear corner tailights just like every other car out there now and not some nice new version of Buicks horizontal tailights.Theres alot of things wrong with the views of that car. The nose was already mostly done by Ford, I dont know, 3 years ago? Its not bad but its not dead on. Its still got the Buick conservative retirement image written all over it if you ask me. A step in the right direction but just a step maybe only a baby step. Sales of Century Regal have been better at least around here than I would have imagined. This LaCrosse is just a new name on the same old thing to me, but maybe some traditional Buick and maybe a few Olds buyers will go for it. I still see the flocks of GM people visiting the Pontiac and Chevy showrooms first. After that why would they go to look at a reserved appearing car and buy it.

Now this Velite is another story and all efforts to get that to market by late summer/fall of next year should be put on full steam. Along with a less expensive version of a hardtop. I believe this car could rightfully carry the Riviera name and draw attention and snap some necks straight into the Buick showroom floors.

Bad news is there may be Chevys and Pontiacs built on these same platforms and then once again Buick is going to have to compete directly with its "sporty" siblings.

Our daughter will be off to college in 4 years and we will no longer require a full size car. Frankly this Infiniti G35 or Nissian 350Z is calling my name. Great price, RWD, luxury, 6 stick, handling, and most importantly SEX APPEAL. We will still have most of my arsonal of good looking 80's FWD Buicks for winter. OR I could always go buy an Amish buggy.

[NTX5467]

With all due respect, the Northstar V-8 is pretty dang troublefree. Granted, when you pull the heads off for the first time at about 150,000+ miles (if at all), all of the threads in the aluminum block will come out, BUT there is a "TimeSert" repair that's pretty inexpensive. The water pump insert is a little troublesome to get out too, but pretty slick how it's designed. Besides, there's probably very few engines of other manufacturers that don't have some little quirks about them as they age.

At one time in the early 1990s, we sold a good number of interrupter magnets (that went in the timing sproket) for the 3800s and the lower pulley/balancers. Similarly, there's been a decent amount of activity on the pair or crankshaft position sensors on the Northstar. Whether it's been the earlier mass air flow sensors of the late 1980s on the 3800s or whatever, all of these things are pretty easy to replace and diagnose. Not all of them needed those things, but the few that did were easy to fix. PLUS the cycles of the parts sales on these parts on the newer GM vehicles is drastically shorter than in prior times--more like months instead of years.

As for the octane requirement of the 3800 supercharged engine, the super unleaded requirement is for max power. With all of the electronics (including timing adjustment when the knock sensors activate), it'll operate with regular or mid-grade just like the regular 3800 will, just that it might loose 10 horsepower or so under total max power situations. There's a website that goes into a great amount of detail of how the engine management system works when it detects just one "clatter" and how long it takes the system to restore max timing. Quite informative, especially for front wheel drive race performance with production street vehicles!

Key thing about rebates, whether for vehicles or computer products, not everyone can qualify for them (or cheap interest rates!). Makes for good marketing copy, though. Also gives the consumer a reason every quarter or so to check out to see what the current "plan" is, if they aren't already in a payment plan on a vehicle. Life might be simpler without these rebates, but it's just another "game" to keep the consumer interested, whether it's just latent interest or intense interest.

I found an article in Automotive Quarterly on the Ford Modular 4.6L V-8. It mentioned that they benchmarked the Lexus OHC V-8 and that they met or exceeded it's benchmarks in power, economy, and a few other areas. The earlier cars I've rented with that motor seemed to be lackluster in performance and mediocre in highway cruise economy. Later versions of the 4.6L V-8 are finally getting better driveability and economy. If it's the equal of a fancy Toyota V-8, that's not saying much about the Toyota engine, I suspect. Especially as the original sohc versions of the 4.6L struggled to get similar power as the famous 5.0L V-8 did, with pushrods no less.

I'll admit I haven't been around a full size Lexus with that engine, but those "benchmark" vehicles just don't excite me one bit. Others might feel differently, but I suspect that if their lease residuals were not quite so good, their popularity might not be quite so great. And it's popularity and "demand" that keep those lease residuals and resale at the levels they are. Lexus styling? Even the most basic Buick has them already beat!

Cadillac seems to have tried to strike a balance between Lexus and Mercedes in the current DeVille and look how unremarkable that car's styling is--inside and out. Besides, if you bought a Park Avenue Ultra (which takes only about 4.5 quarts of oil for an oil change) instead of a Cadillac DeVille with the Northstar V-8 (which takes a tad over 7 quarts of oil for an oil change), it looks like every third oil change in the Park Avenue would be free. Even the Chrysler 3.5L V-6 takes over 6 quarts for an oil change, and it makes roughly the same power as the 3800 V-6.

In other words, there are some sound financial reasons to drive Buicks and the other GM cars that use the Buick 3800 V-6. Look at total ownership cost (including maintenance) and not just lease residuals if you really want to see what the true cost of ownership is.

One last thing, I wish the press would totally forget the word "stodgy"--period. Of course, if the current cars are that way then it sets the stage for the public to be ready to see the new and improved models in the near future. Only thing is that it tends to do a disservice to the existing vehicles which probably could use a few tweaks to make them look a little snazzzier or whose platform might not be less than three years old. Usually, those tweaks are not hard or expensive to do, but just don't get done for one reason or another (hidden agendas?), just like innovative advertising costs the same as mediocre advertising.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Reatta Man]

NTX,

I agree with you about the term stodgy.

Seems Honda and Toyota build stodgy cars, but young people buy them. Mercury builds a stodgy Grand Marquis (Grandfather Marquis?) but they manage to sell a lot of SUVs to younger buyers. Lincoln sells the Town Car to the geezers, but lots of SUVs to gangbangers and hip hoppers. Chrysler sells a lot of PT Cruisers to kids, but those young people would never look twice at most of their other cars, including the Crossfire (called the Missfire by the Detroit News). So, being stodgy or conservative doesn't necessarily mean you can't sell to young people.

I just can't understand how the company that owned the convertible, sporty and muscle car markets in much of the 1960's and 70s, even after Ford got a jump on them with the Mustang, could be sooooooo far behind now.

As for the Northstar, maybe its' problems are related more to the South Texas heat. Seems that nearly half of the people I know with one have had to replace the water pump or are having problems due to DexCool coolant.

Joe

[Gene Brink]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect, the Northstar V-8 is pretty dang troublefree. </div></div>

True but when a friend of a friend needed a starter motor replaced and paid over $1300 just because of where they place the starter (in the camshaft valley so one has to remove lots of stuff to get to it) I wrote off ever having one even though performance is great. I keep cars for a long time and have replaced/rebuilt starters on almost all of them at least once while owning them and am not about to get one that requires that much effort to replace and wonder what on earth the designers were thinking - certainly not the customer and his/her $$.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the rave reviews the Chrysler 300's getting with the new vehicle that name is now attached to--and THAT's a name that predates LeSabre AND Park Avenue as production vehicle names!</div></div>

Reviving vehicle names has a lot to do with whether or not the name has been "diluted" by use on lesser vehicles, I think. Maybe not always true, Ford did OK with "Mustang" even after the Mustang II came along. But that was an exceptional badge due to its history. People were likely to be waiting for the "next GOOD Mustang." The Chrysler 300 was legendary, and had a reputation for always being on worthy performance vehicles. It had been gathering dust for a long time, but look at how people responded to it. One reason was probably that Chrysler did some "reminder" advertising to bring younger people up to date on the legend, and to bring back fond memories for people who were familiar with the cars.

Buick has, in my opinion, diluted the LeSabre name almost out of possibile recovery because of so many "ho hum" examples of it. Riviera seems to still have a lot of appeal because, even though it's been around a long time, it's always been a "special" car.

Chevy is reviving Impala SS and Malibu, not Biscayne etc., because they know which past badges had the most panache.

Buick might look to some lesser known yet appealing older badges like "Wildcat" and even "Invicta." Electra seems to stand on its own merits. It's just a cool name that seemingly can't lose its appeal. And it's always stood for a really good, big car that wasn't a Cadillac. Kind of the Bentley of the U.S. The 225 was a legendary specialty version that entered pop culture with the "Deuce and a Quarter" nickname, which also found its way to popular music.

Some names seem to be destined to get "dated," like "Special" and maybe even "Skylark" (from the old popular song).

It appears that Buick is struggling to come up with new names that match the appeal of some of the old ones, but I haven't seen one yet that looks much like a "home run."

Buick may do well to borrow from the past those names which can appear fresh again and also maintain their historical aura of great motoring and performance.

I think Electra 225, Wildcat, and Riviera are keepers. Maybe three or four "classic" names are enough to keep. Then come up with some really good new names that are as cool as, for instance, LeSabre originally was.

But that's just my opinion... anyone want to start a list?

[Guest my3buicks]

Velite - works for me on the convert

Riviera - Coupe AKA Velite as a hardtop

Electra 225 - Premium Sedan on Velite Platform

Invicta - LeSabre replacement

LaCrosse works for me

Rainier works for me

Terraza name doesn't work for me but to late to change that one, a needed vehicle in the lineup though

Rendezvous works, has helped Buick sales, keep a little longer replace with a sportier kick ass Crossover SUV with a new catchier name (how about Centurion)

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buick might look to some lesser known yet appealing older badges like "Wildcat" and even "Invicta." </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing as I wandered down this thread. Then again, I could be biased

The thing that gets me is that everything is so nondescript. Would a bit of brightwork hurt? I know aerodynamics goes against adding chrome bits on, but how about some sort of embedded chrome striping? Dress up the cars a bit, make them distinctive, and you will get people to notice.

For a new car, my wife is bugging me about a PT Cruiser. I shudder at the thought of purchasing a stylized Neon, but her point is that it looks different. She also happens to like the styling from the '30s (all I gotta do now is find a '36 or '37 open car that I can afford and we'd be laughing), so the front fenders work for her.

Just a couple random thoughts. If a rear drive platform is going to be used, come up with a full-sized performance car (ala Impala SS, Mercury Marauder package) and call it a Wildcat. Ideally, it could also go back to being offered as a 4 door, 2 door, or convertible.

Well, I am just babbling now. At the moment, the Rainier is definitely in the running for our next vehicle.

[Guest my3buicks]

Actually the new LaCrosse has a fair amount of chrome accents, enough to notice but not to much to be labled a Chromy old Buick

[Guest Skyking]

I think Invicta would be a great name to reuse, only because it was used for 4 years previous and people forgot about it.......It was always a classy name!

[90 convertible]

My understanding was that the Velite was the new Reatta

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rendezvous works, has helped Buick sales </div></div>

Have you been reading their sales reports? Sales of Buicks have fallen through the floor since the Rendezvous was released.

The names of cars that are being resurrected are all names that originally were only used for a few years. Impala is the exception, It was used for 22 years, but was a primary brand within Chevy for less than half that time.

I think the Buick names that are best for reuse are Skylark and Wildcat. Skylark was sullied by some awful FWD models in the 80's and 90's, but like Chevelle still can recall GM's heyday when applied properly. The Wildcat is great name with a great image that recalls the best of Buick's past. It would be a great name for a Riviera replacement.

That said, I think we're in for a slew of new names we've never hear before. That approach failed at Olds because they didn't really have much new except the names at the time. If we're looking at efficient top quality rear wheel drive cars with Buick's name on them, any decent model name will do. I just hope they don't come up with a bunch of committee tested syllable mish-mash names (i.e. Terazza or Integra) that are meaningless in and of themselves. They bug me!

[NTX5467]

The first GM engine to put the started under the intake manifold was the ZR-1 Corvette. At that time, they claimed the durability of the starters had progressed to the point that they were so troublefree they could get away with doing that. Probably some of that same orientation resulted in the Northstar having one "down in the valley" too?

In reality, only simple hand tools are needed to pull the intake off and replace the starter in a Northstar. More time consuming than anything else, plus some new gaskets.

The water pump insert is a metal stamping that has angled ears that fits into the main housing and twists and locks. Pretty slick from the assembly line production standpoint as it seals against a thin o-ring around the outside edge. But after the many hot and cold cycles that can happen in about 100,000 miles or so, that pump insert basically gets glued in and even the special Kent-Moore (now SPX) tool to remove it usually breaks before the thing breaks loose to get it out. Again, pretty time consuming even for those that know how to do it. But,as with the starter buried under there, you don't have to change them THAT often during ownership, if at all--not that that justifies those situations, though.

On the issue of "brite trim items". I'm kind of thinking similar thoughts. At the present time, much positive dialogue is given to "moldingless windshields" where the bare glass is its own trim, as the bodies are built to such tight tolerances that they can now delete the moldings that used to cover the gap. Sounds neat, until you consider that that's just that much less money they spend on the vehicle.

Where I'd like to see a little britework is in the interior. Those highly precisioned color "butt joints" in the door panels and instrument panels might look less industrial if they had a thin strip of britework covering those areas--just like in the old days, britework can enhance the look and lead to greater perceived value, if it's done tastefully. But these extra britework strips might put enough extra labor time into the assembly process that it might make GM look like it's loosing the "vehicle assembly time" race in The Harbor Report. Precision two-tone trim that lines up perfectly is nice, but when it's a cover for decreased costs in an expensive vehicle, something might need to be revisited.

On the subject of interior colors, WHERE did the notion that brown woodgrain trim (with no chrome-like accent trim around it) is a good color combination with a graphite or charcoal interior? Black and brown together????!!! Not to mention the distinct lack of color choices in modern interiors to better match the exterior colors too!! Granted the graphite leather in many current Buicks looks really luxurious, but might look kind of drab in some cases too. Interiors are another place that could be snazzzzzed up with some britework trim and brighter colors too.

Just some thougths,

NTX5467

[Guest my3buicks]

"Dave@Moon" said: Have you been reading their sales reports? Sales of Buicks have fallen through the floor since the Rendezvous was released.

Yes, but hardley from the Rendezvous release. Sales on the Rendezvous have been very good and have been credited for a small decline in Buick buyers average age. Think what the numbers would have been without it. Spin more Dave Spin more!

[Reatta Man]

Right now, GM is offering up to $5,000 in rebates on the new Rainier. I don't think I have ever seen rebates this high on a brand new model.

Maybe Disney could use this example and offer rebates to anyone that will go see the new Alamo movie. It cost $100 million to make and made $9 million in its first weekend in theaters. OUCH!

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LaCrosse works for me</div></div>

Thanks for the list, My3Buicks. I agree with everything but the above (it's an OK name, but they really needed a "home run," and this isn't even a goal! reminds me too much of Soccermom. Oops, hope the marketing deptartment doesn't see that one) and Velite, which just reminds me of some kind new food additive or "space age plastic." Take the "V" off and it's the Elite--been done.

Somebody mentioned Centurion. I KNEW I was forgetting one of my favorites. It's a reminder of the Century without being as "diluted" as Century. (At least, I think that Century has become "old hat." But again, whaddoiknow?)

[ranchero]

OK - Buick, a brand I love and a history I respect. What's wrong:

Coupe available now: none: need a Riviera

Convertible available now: none - need a Skylark (not a Velite). Velite is close - rwd is good but not a V-6. Must look like a Buick (and perform like a Buick - not a Reatta) and must have a V-8 (any LT-1s left from Roadmasters?).

Station Wagon available now: none - need Roadmaster Estate Wagon.

Any manufacturer can provide excellent four door sedans. Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Ford, Mercury, Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Honda now do it well and look out for the new Chrysler 300. Buick must make some upper middle class cars - coupes, convertibles and wagons. In '50, '60, '70, ('82), and '90 you could buy a wonderful coupe, convertible or wagon from Buick. Today you can get none. Fifty years ago Buicks parked in front of country clubs belonged to the members. Today a Buick at a country club belongs to a member of the wait staff.

Respectfully submitted - Ranchero

[86 2dr.ltd]

Invicta - Dated name wont work today

LeSabre - has been a good selling and thought of car the last few decades only old grumpys deny it. I havent liked the styling since 92 but somebody does because they have sold well.

Riviera - timeless name, better go on a drop dead gorgous car or remain in hiding

Wildcat - my favorite name for a return but like Riv, it better not go on something plain and boringly or reserved styled. Which is all Buick is doing or allowed these days.

Electra - I believe in same catagory as Invicta, no place in todays world

Park Ave - Great name but take it or leave it because it may have run its course.

Regal - Great name but take it or leave it because it may have run its course.

Skylark - might work today Im not sure but would you want that name on the LaCrosse? The LaCrosse is where the Skylark would fit today.

Velite - Its OK I have no problem with it. Its new and has dignity

Lucerne - really bugs me it just sounds weak to me. LeSabre has a strong sound , Lucerne does not.

Gotta have a V8's - There is alot more going on than a LT1 today. The LS6 is kickin butt against the worlds best engines in many road race applications. CTS-V , "Pontiac" powered Rolex Gran American Daytona Prototypes. Im not sure whats in the Vette C5R nearly the same I believe but less stock maybe than the others I mentioned. But why would we want every GM large car powered by the same exact engine. This is where GM drivetrain has led us.

station wagon - someone did a chop shop job on the LaCrosse and it looked great, better than the LaCrosse.

"(and perform like a Buick - not a Reatta)" great attitude we need more of that around here. I suppose any old small block Buick of the infamous yesteryears would just blow snot right out the Reatta ey ? And probably handle and look better whilst doing so.

I'd like to see the TT DOHC 3.6 engine built in the Velite concept go up at least as an option. I dont know somehow Buick and turbocharged V6's seems to ring bell.

In case anyones interested in seeing what I believe is a Buick that is finally right on line for todays market, technoligy and styling direction. I only hope this is not going to be another balk, like most GM concepts are. Its time to put out or get out.

http://www.fast-autos.net/buick/buickvelite.html

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "(and perform like a Buick - not a Reatta)" great attitude we need more of that around here. I suppose any old small block Buick of the infamous yesteryears would just blow snot right out the Reatta ey ? And probably handle and look better whilst doing so. </div></div>

Hey...take it easy on the Reatta

Sure it could use more power, but it sure is pretty, has nicely balanced handling and was/is technologically interesting.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Rawja, that one turn bad on me quick. That first line was a quote from the guy before me and my honestly sarcastic responce to the negitive attitude we unfortuante "new" "poor""wannabe""worst Buicks ever made" crowd seem to have to endure if we want to visit forums pertaining to our cars.

In the mean time I made it appear that I was "one of them" Sorry

Check my Sig theres a few cars missing, Reatta is one of them

[Rawja]

I chose to quote your post rather that the first because it contained more complete anti-Reatta sentiment than the first.

I wasn't bothered by it at all.

I just wanted to express the thought that if you haven't really experienced the "joys of Reatta" you are indeed missing out on a delightful, under-apprieciated, beautifully executed, reliable and econimical personal luxury coupe/convertable. (sorry for all the adjectives, but I REALLY love my car)

[JFULLER]

It's a reasonably good idea to drop the names Park Avenue, LeSabre, etc. I would go back to the past when BUICK was somewhat of a king on the road. My recommendations would be:

ROADMASTER VIII ELITE

SUPER VI EXECUTIVE

CENTURY VIII-S EXCITEMENT

SPECIAL VI ECONOMICAL

note: VIII (V8)

VI (V6)

VIII-S (V-8 Supercharged)

[ranchero]

rawjanyc - I am the one who meant to slight the Reatta. I believe it is a deceptive car. It looks great. It has an inviting interior. It is a wonderful size for a car to drive around Chicago, LA, Denver or Dallas (or I guess even some city on the east coast). But the looks of the car are deceiving. That car is not a real Buick. It has no power. It has no durability. Replacement parts from GM are generally not available (try to find "windwing glass"). Building a Reatta was a huge mistake, despite how much I love the looks of a "Maui Blue" '90/'91 convertible. Like they did with the boattails of the '70s, Buick could have used more parts from a standard LeSabre in order to make the replacement parts be more available. They could have given the car a bit of guts - why no supercharged 3.8? They totally blew the Reatta; admit it. Yes, it is a beautiful car and I would love to have one displayed in my living room. But I don't want to drive one.

Buick needs V-8, rwd coupes, convertibles and wagons. That's it. Forget trying to compete with four door sedans; everyone else makes a better/cheaper/more durable/more reliable ones. I respect Special/Century/Super/Roadmaster naming but how many people know what those historic monikers represent?

To me, Buick means "performance" and "country club" - I guess you could say a "midwest Lexus". A Buick owner should get the ability to do both. Anyone who buys a current Buick has no performance and will be laughed at by the valet at the country club when he pulls up in a Park Avenue or "R" whatever.

V-8, rwd, coupe, convertible, wagon!

[86 2dr.ltd]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rawjanyc - I am the one who meant to slight the Reatta. I believe it is a deceptive car. It looks great. It has an inviting interior. It is a wonderful size for a car to drive around Chicago, LA, Denver or Dallas (or I guess even some city on the east coast). But the looks of the car are deceiving. That car is not a real Buick. It has no power. It has no durability. Replacement parts from GM are generally not available (try to find "windwing glass"). Building a Reatta was a huge mistake, despite how much I love the looks of a "Maui Blue" '90/'91 convertible. Like they did with the boattails of the '70s, Buick could have used more parts from a standard LeSabre in order to make the replacement parts be more available. They could have given the car a bit of guts - why no supercharged 3.8? They totally blew the Reatta; admit it. Yes, it is a beautiful car and I would love to have one displayed in my living room. But I don't want to drive one.

Buick needs V-8, rwd coupes, convertibles and wagons. That's it. Forget trying to compete with four door sedans; everyone else makes a better/cheaper/more durable/more reliable ones. I respect Special/Century/Super/Roadmaster naming but how many people know what those historic monikers represent?

To me, Buick means "performance" and "country club" - I guess you could say a "midwest Lexus". A Buick owner should get the ability to do both. Anyone who buys a current Buick has no performance and will be laughed at by the valet at the country club when he pulls up in a Park Avenue or "R" whatever.

V-8, rwd, coupe, convertible, wagon! </div></div>

So what REAL BUICK is it your driving MR. ? You got one of them Cadallics with the Longhorns on the hood ? Your Buick would have died in 1971 with your perfect path to neverland. What is it your basing your performance figures on ? Any of your information on, certainly not experiance. Why are the Buick built Reattas not "real Buicks" ? Why is it a Reatta is a urban vehical ? Why is it the Reatta has a strong following and is unique but yet you still feel the need to discredit all of that ? Cant wait to hear this nonsense. Didnt realize the only reason for a Buick was to carry some closed minded ones golf clubs. Whats a "mid west" Lexus, is it the longhorn thing ? Your special!

[NTX5467]

CONSIDERING . . . the time frame the Reatta was conceived and produced in, "performance" as we previously knew it was a memory--period. Everything was moving downsized with small motors and 200 horsepower was considered to be the limit that a front wheel car could reasonably tolerate--period. Yes, by that point in time, the mere 3.8L V-6 had been refined and improved to the tune of about 30 horsepower from its 1985 fwd version, no small feat in itself, and it was done with engineering advances and refinements (new cylinder heads, retargeted fuel injectors, improved fuel injectors, and other redesigned parts/pieces) that did not need the beloved turbo (at that point in time, spelled "heat sink that makes cold start emissions bad") or the later supercharger to get those gains. In other words, increased efficiency and emissions reductions with increased power was what happened.

One car magazine inquired as to why Buick was not following Olds (and their Quad 4 OHC motor) in their engine development. The reply was that for a Buick owner, acceleration ended on the other side of the intersection, or something to that effect. Meaning . . . off-idle response and low end torque were more important in real world situations than 6000rpm power that an OHC motor would provide. You can read several things into that orientation, but it's not that far off from real world conditions and use. When I drove a '91 Reatta Convertible one afternoon (when it was still new), I was impressed with the body structure and general performance. It might not have had any performance intentions, but that did not mean it was a floaty cruiser either. It was easy to drive on the two-lane back roads at higher than posted speeds (but not foolishly so either!). A good mix of firmer ride and good ride.

Reading the Buick literature and watching the dealer training video, the Reatta was never considered to be a performance vehicle, but a classy cruiser for the upscale "country club" set. In THAT mission, it did pretty well. Remember how the Riviera of that time frame was downsized too??? Well, the Reatta was mechanically a 2-seat Riviera with some different sheet metal. Lot of mechanical parts interchanges too, but there were enough "Reatta specific" parts that it didn't look like a cut-down Riviera.

I suspect the fact that the Reatta was basically a hand built car is unimportant? Yes, it was one of the first vehicles to be built at what became the Lansing Craft Center. The vehicle moved on self-guided carts from assembly station to assembly station in sequence, but NOT on a conventional conveyor system as a traditional assembly line had. It was one of the first times that a paint vendor was in house to make sure everything worked correctly too. LOTS of innovations in production assembly were put together in the Lansing Craft Center back then.

Therefore, considering the side issues of the time of "conception" and "birth" of the Reatta, it was a pretty dang decent car for Buick and GM. Some items were "state of the art" back then (the touch screen control on the earlier cars) that later would be discontinued from GM, but what that means is that if you have a problem or need Reatta-specific parts, you call the REATTA DIVISION people and find out where to get the parts--which are usually outside of the realm and knowledge of the typical GM dealership's parts department, with all due respect. In one respect, not THAT much different from any other low production speciality vehicle that's not under warranty any more. That's called "Networking" with other owners of similar vehicles.

Even when the cars were new, there were some of the parts that had to be obtained by calling a particular individual in the GM organization to place the parts order. Kind of unusual, but it also gave these people a chance to spot problem areas and get them fixed with the vendor and engineering. In one respect, an unusual situation, but on the other hand, tended to prove Buick's committment to making the ownership experience much more personal in concept. This was their "halo" car of the time and they wanted everything to be a right as it could be for their owners/customers.

The Reatta was a pretty neat car for its time. In many respects, it probably has been underappreciated too--then and now. Many Buicks of the more recent times are also typically underappreciated also, from my observations--but that's a whole 'nuther subject.

Sure was great to see all of those Reattas on display in Flint too!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest elk93001]

In response to previous reply. I wonder which magazine asked why Buick wasn't following Olds with the Quad 4. Imagine if they did?

That Quad 4 was not exactly as refined or smooth as other 4 cylinders (many car mags noted this) let alone the 3.8 V6.

In addition the Quad 4 is a nightmare to work on maintenance items (waterpump, t stat,

[Reatta Man]

Ah, the conversation keeps going and remains interesting....

1. Performance. GM STILL doesn't get it. Just look at their fast movers; very expensive and not aimed at the performance audience. How many silver-haired individuals have you spotted driving 300+ HP Cadillacs? How many people do you know that can walk in and plop down $55K for a Corvette? How come Subaru can make one of the fastest and cheapest pocket rockets for sale today, but the Chevrolet Cavalier almost starts self-destructing when you drive it home, and has always had an anemic engine?

2. Names. Same as before; GM still doesn't seem to get it. Does anyone know what Camaro means? Or a Vega? When it first came out, a Century was a Buick that could do 100 MPH; now it is a code-word for RENTAL CAR. Can you believe they brought out a Pontiac GTO with no hood scoops or anything more distinctive than you could buy off the shelf on a Ford Focus ZTS for half the price? Maybe if they keep making Buicks that look like a Taurus and have a small engine, they can call it a Mildcat.

Leave the names with a little cache left to them for something worthy of their use. I can't imagine a Buick Wildcat with a 3.1 V-6 engine capable of 0-60 in 14 seconds and made in Mexico. UUGGGGHHHHH.

[BuickCollector]

Many valid thoughts have been voiced here.

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When I saw the Velite in NY at the autoshow, it was creating quite a few positive comments from the crowd. ...a nice change at the Buick section from years past!

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I'll relay what the Buick people told me in summary.

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The date, "2006" was mentioned.

The name, "GNX" was mentioned in a different timeframe.

The term "single turbo" was also mentioned.

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If you put them all together. The Velite is a functional concept which could be made "real" quicker than other concepts (remember, Regis drove it). I mentioned 2008 to them and they countered with 2006. Two individuals at different times mentioned "single-turbo". They mentioned "GNX", not me. This used to be a bad word at Buick along with Grand National because of its "boy-racer" image. Apparently, not so anymore.

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I really don't care if its a V8 or turbo-V6, as long as it has enough to tromp the competition at a fraction of the cost.... for example, my neighbor's Z8 which he loves flaunting around the neighborhood. I'd love to show it up with an American (Buick specifically) V6 (or V8) car just like we could 15 years ago with a GN. As for the name...well.... Centurion, Wildcat, or Invicta sounds ok.... but I think Riviera is too diluded.

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And finally, yes, I own a '91 Reatta (165hp). If you don't get the jump on them at the intersection, its all over.... and the number of electrical (and other) problems are simply too many to list. Looks are its strongest point. ("flame-on")

[NTX5467]

Not sure how things are in the San Antone area, but up here in DFW, we're selling lots of 275-300 horsepower Cadillacs to lots of older folks that probably don't know what's under the hood, except that it's a Northstar. I suspect that many similar owners of the allegedly "segment leading" Lexus or Mercedes cars similarly don't know what they might be looking at if they choose to raise the hood, with all due respect. Wasted technology? Many of them even spring for the factory replacement electronic controlled struts when they start bouncing too much. Corvette sales might be in a doldrum considering the improved 2005 will soon be on the way, but that might not be completely true considering the Z06 is still alive and well. By observation, people that can afford the higher end vehicles typically don't get nearly as concerned about the economy as others might, but the will get concerned about lease residuals and such.

Remember my comment about the 200 horsepower "limit"? There's still some merit to that orientation. With the current transaxle in the Grand Prix, Regals, Centurys, and Impalas, word was that Lutz wanted 280 horsepower for the 2004 Grand Prix GTP (supercharged Buick 3800 V-6), but what he got was 260 horsepower due to the limitations that GMPowertrain insisted be on the "warrantiable" power of the engine. 260 horsepower's not too shabby, but not "segment leading" either as Nissan's OHC V-6 has similar power, just as the LaCrosse sport model with the new GM 3.6L DOHC V-6 also has. If it was not for the advanced electronics to back off the spark timing at the split second the transmission shifts (to decrease the shock loads on the gear sets), we would still be in the 200 horsepowe range, I suspect. Granted, the aftermarket has transaxles that will consistently take more power than the production unit, but I suspect they are also more expensive in many respects.

If you read most any road test of the current hot rod Altima V-6, there have always been comments about torque steer in that car and how allegedly bad it is. I have noticed that many Altima V-6s have the optional limited slip axle in them too, but I don't know how that would affect the torque steer issue. Torque steer's been around since the first small fwd cars built in this country. I don't recall it being mentioned in the road tests of the early Toronados and such, though. Soooo, until we get rear wheel drive back in production, you'll probably not see any more horsepower than what we now have in the front wheel drive platforms, regardless of who the manufacturer is.

I know, there are pocket rockets around that are front wheel drive, but they are more attuned to young people (and those that still feel young). The SRT-4 Neon is one such unit. In that type of vehicle, you expect to have some torque steer and it's no big deal, but to someone else in a different type of vehicle, it could well be as much of a surprise as unintended acceleration. I suspect the Subaru of which you speak is also all wheel drive.

Names? Camaro is a version of a French word for "friend". Vega was "Chevy's little star". Terraza? Century now means "high value transportation for the budget minded"--if the resale value was not as good as it must be AND the car was not as reliable as it obviously is, it would NOT be in the rental fleets OR any other fleet for that matter. Look at things from the other side of the desk and it all makes sense to those that pay the bills. Besides, if you walk out onto the National Car Rental Emerald Isle and have a choice of a Mitsubishi Galant or a Century, what would the normal person choose? Remember the advertising when the Century was reintroduced that stated you could have Buick luxury for under $20,000.00 MSRP?

Those "program cars" ALSO serve the niche of people that can't afford a brand new Buick but can afford a used one. Many would rather buy a used Buick and get an extended warranty rather than buy a new lesser vehicle with no extended warranty for the same money. Contrary to what some might perceive, Buicks are still classier than Taurus or Camry.

Cavalier admittedly has not received the attention that it might deserve. As performance parts were developed for the Pontiac Sunfire, the same things were done for the Cavlier during the past few years and those items tend to reside in the GM Performance Parts catalog. Too much too late? Possibly. Also consider that Cobalt will be here in a few months too, which should address the deficiencies of the Cavalier in concept and sheet metal. By the same token, there appears to be quite a following of the GM J-body from what I've seen in forums dedicated to just that platform. Similar with the N-body Grand Ams too.

As for the "scoopless" GTO, remember the orientation to get away from all of that geegaw styling of prior Pontiacs? Unless a hood scoop has at least 30 square inches of total openning area, it's more for cosmetics and not performance. There's also the issue of boundary layer air flow versus real air flow a few inches above the hood's surface. Ram Air? Not unless you're running past 100mph, from what studies have mentioned. Sure, the cooler air might be a benefit, but not necessarily enough to feel in all driving conditions. As I recall, the percent of gain per 10 degrees of temperature drop is in the single numbers. With the close relationship of the Camaro/Firebird hood scoops to the motor, the duct work to make them work correctly could well have enough flow restriction in them (as produced) to pretty much negate any real performance gains--but they sure do look neat to many people. Scoops can have a performance image and some do work, but price an Air Grabber hood scoop for a '70 Road Runner or the Cowl Induction hood for a '70 Chevelle SS454 or the cold air induction hood for a Buick GS455 and see all that it takes to make them work. Similarly, adding the SS hood to a late model Camaro and having it function (as it does on the SS models) is well past $1500.00 plus paint and installation. In other words, there are better places to spend money in getting a vehicle to performn than it having hood scoops for the sake of hood scoops.

I know, the GTO loyalists hollered and later versions probably will have some sort of hood scoop, which is fine. In trying to bring that car to market as soon as it happened, development time could well have been a big issue on whether or not hood scoops would be in the first year model of GTO. If hood scoops happen, can splitter exhaust tips be far behind?

As for future Buick names, I just hope they choose something that is related to identifiable Buick Heritage. Something the younger people can get excited about and something that existing Buick enthusiasts (i.e., us) can similarly get excited about too. As we mentioned earlier, it's not the "old" name specifically that generates interest, it's the vehicle the name is attached to, yet there must be a certain amount of credibility to the whole package for things to really work right.

I'll concur with the 2006 time frame, from what I've seen in various websites and considered how some things have to work together to happen at all. I kind of wish that more cars would come out together to really spark things up, but the accountants might not like that spike in spending very much.

As Velite is on a production platform as it now it, making it happen is much easier than making the original Bengal happen. It all goes back to an orientation that Lutz has of making concept cars pretty much production ready "as presented". Just like Chrysler did with the original Viper (when Lutz was there). All of the design and engineering has been done, now it's just up to making a good business case for the vehicle and making it happen. As always, powertrain choices might not be what's in the concept, but similar.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[ranchero]

86 two door: "MR." has RWD V-8 Buicks - 455 Boattail & Roadmaster Estate Wagon. My opinion about Reatta not being a real Buick is because the car does not have a V-8, does not have rear wheel drive, has insufficent horsepower and generally does not provide satisfying performance (yes, I have driven one).

A good point was made that at the time of introduction of the Reatta (1988) the performance and horsepower of the drivetrain was considered satisfactory. Yet a similar "urban sized" car was available then - a Mustang. It could be had with a 302 V-8 and was a RWD car; the technology of such a set up was not so very exotic. Look, I don't hate your Reatta. I think they are cute, especially the stunning convertible. I think the design is attractive and the interior was especially well done and roomy. But I think the car, despite hand assembly at the "Craft Center" was not durable; that GM parts support is bad; that performance could and should have been much better.

Please consider a quote from Ed Mertz, then GM of Buick Division. This appears in one of my owner's manuals:

"Buick will provide Premium American Motorcars backed with services that exceed our customers' expectations, throughout the purchase, ownership, service and repurchase experience.

Buicks are SUBSTANTIAL.

Buicks are DISTINCTIVE.

Buicks are POWERFUL.

Buicks are MATURE."

I identify Buick cars within those paramaters. Ask if the Reatta met those standards. Were the backing services of GM satisfactory to long term owners? Are Reattas substantial? Are they powerful?

So I am at best indifferent to the obsolete but pretty Reatta and did not even like the car back when it was new. To me a Buick is a traditional, well built and durable car capable of delivering satisfying performance - longhorns or not.

[ranchero]

86 two door:

PS from ranchero:

The correct spelling of the following words is as I type them below; if you'd like to do so, please check them. Your spelling is incorrect. I just though you would want to know for your future postings.

experience (not "experiance")

vehicle (not "vehical")

I don't care how you spell; I deal with cowboys everyday. However I just imagine that an easterner would want to be correct.

Respectfully submitted, ranchero

[BuickCollector]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "My opinion about Reatta not being a real Buick is because the car does not have a V-8, does not have rear wheel drive, has insufficent horsepower and generally does not provide satisfying performance." </div></div>

I think you've described the entire current Buick line....except for the V8 Rainier which I still think would fail the "performance" criteria.

I hope that a "Buick" does not have to meet ALL of those criteria in your book because, I think the current GS is a very good performer even without a V8 and the turbo-Regals of the past have every right to be called "a Buick"... also without a V8....they are right up there with the big blocks of old. Just my opinion.

Looks like the Velite may match your description though.

[NTX5467]

The support of the General Motors and Buick organizations to the "long term owners" of Reattas is actually no worse that it is for any other GM vehicle of that time frame or speciality vehicle. The Riviera connection actually helps in many respects, but similar Rivieras were just as durable as anything else GM built back then.

Comparing a Reatta to a Mustang, in a totally different market segment? Not quite the same thing regardless of whether the vehicles were of similar size.

The quote from Ed Mertz is very similar to what he said in the excellent audiovisual presentation that was made at the BCA Meet in Flint in the later 1980s. EXCEPT for a few things he noted. First thing was illustrated with the Ventiports from a '55 or so Roadmaster, using them as the centerpiece of the word "Smoooooth" to describe Buicks. "Powerful" was used to describe Buicks too, BUT there was also a picture of a Black Regal GN with a big red circle with a slash through it with the explanation "No more 'boy racer' Buicks".

To elaborate, the Buick Heritage was for powerful, smooth, mature, and substantial vehicles. That meant quality materials in construction backed up by higher quality engineering than other similar vehicles had/used. Buicks might not have been the fastest thing away from a red light (compared to some Chevy V-8s with deep rear axle gears, for example), but their engines were designed for smooth and powerful performance well past the normal driving speed ranges. In one of their yearly new model "annuals", Motor Trend mentioned the Nailhead V-8 (a 401 in a '65 Skylark GS in this case) that had excellent torque response well past the 100 mph range out on the road. Being "mature" vehicles meant that while stop light acceleration was important, what happened on the open road was typically more important than how fast the 1/4 mile was covered. Of course, with the two speed automatics of that era, a broad torque band was necessary for good high gear performance after passing gear was used up. Remember, too, that there were still many "two lane blacktops" in the country back then too, which meant that passing gear performance needed to be pretty good.

Although the Super Turbine 300 (two speed automatics, usually with the SwitchPitch converter in the earlier years, as I recall) were used for a little longer than other makers used two speed automatics, the other benefit of them was more power getting to the drive wheels as it took less horsepower to run them (which is why the Chevy PowerGlide has been a consistent favorite in some drag race classes). Several orientations on transmission uses back then. In reality, though, wheel spin might look "impressive", but unless the tires hook up and move the vehicle, it's just a waste of resources.

At this point in time, any manufacturer will cease carrying new or reman parts for their production vehicles when it ceases to be economically feasible to do so. Plain and simple. Replacement parts needs are estimated when the original business case for the vehicle is configured. If there's a steady use of individual parts, they'll stay in production until that demand tapers off, but if things happen as they did for certain Chevrolet models, the vehicle's popularity "reheated" after all of the factory parts were sold out. Then the reproduction/restoration people come into play with GM Licensed Parts, if it's again feasible to produce them. Case in point was the '66 era Chevy Nova. Basically, by observation, once you get away from the higher volume GM carlines, parts availability "down the road" from GM or AC-Delco for OEM production replacement parts does quickly deteriorate.

Another case in point is the electronic struts for the Allantes. GM put out a bulletin several years ago that they were ceasing to support the replacement struts and detailed how to replace them with regular struts and alter the wiring so that the Body Control Module would not put up a warning light and trouble codes for the suspension. Back to a comment I made earlier, as any other auto enthusiast for a specialty type vehicle--or even a mainstream model of vehicle, you network with other similar enthusiasts and swap information on things such as where to get things and who to ask for to get them. Pretty simple, but it might take a little time to find these sources. In the case of the Reatta, the Reatta Division operatives probably know anything about those vehicles you could ever hope to need to know. They are a great information source!

Throughout Buick's history, they've had highly evolved "little engines" with some great engineering in them. Many of them were overshadowed by the larger engines of the times, but that did not diminish the fact that they were as good as they were--even in the early '60s. The 215 cid V-8, shared in some respects with Oldsmobile (who turbocharged it in 1962), was just recently taken out of production by Rover. The 300 cid V-8s evolved into the great small block Buick V-8s of the '60s and later time frames.

In the 1965 time frame when Ford, GM, and Chrysler had their "big sixes" for the smaller cars that gave the performance of the standard V-8s in larger cars, but with the economy of a 6 cylinder. Quite a feat back then to achieve something of that nature, whereas the original Chevy 265 V-8 weighed less than the 6 cylinder it replaced.

When the fuel efficiency issues arose in the 1980s, small engines were "in" AND most were V-6s or smaller V-8s. When Buick got their first turbo 3.8L V-6s in production, they were the "performance alternative" to the Chevy 305 4bbl V-8s. They did have some initial teething problems, but by the time the "black" GNs hit, it was a highly evolved and sophisticated powerplant. It also kind of fit into the GM midset that it didn't matter how many cylinders an engine had, it was the horsepower that mattered (an orientation that carries on today).

I'll readily admit that if I go looking for a performance car, I would want one with a V-8--if for nothing else than "image", but I also know the Turbo GNs were highly credible performers even in stock form and, if the turbo's spooled up, will make other V-8s see red tailights. You can make fun of the way they might sound, but the fact remains that the performance is there. Might be a "boy racer Buick", but it's still one FAST Buick too! Heck, even the FBI ordered up some GNXs to chase drug runners! In short, just because they didn't come with V-speed rated tires didn't mean they were slow, just that GM didn't want to spend the extra money OR have them outrun Corvettes of that time frame.

Let's all agree to disagree on the types and models of Buicks we might like, but remember that we're ALL still part of the Buick Enthusiast Family too and that a Buick is not defined by the number of spark plugs it might have!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[BuickCollector]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Powerful" was used to describe Buicks too, BUT there was also a picture of a Black Regal GN with a big red circle with a slash through it with the explanation "No more 'boy racer' Buicks".</div></div>

I had always heard that GM/Buick had taken stance against GNs in later years, essentially making their own "children" the "black sheep" of the family, but had never heard of anything quite so "official". What a shame.

"Here, here" on your statement about the number of spark plugs.

As for myself, I'm torn wishing for a V8 versus a turbo-V6 in the Velite. In all reality neither, will be very easily modifyible for more power with regards to emissions.

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If they put a low-hp engine in it to make the Caddy version stand out, then I hope for a turbo-v6 because it "should" be more easily modified to produce more hp without "getting into the engine" by increasing the boost (assuming the fuel system, block, and control systems allow it without too many modifications). If the aftermarket follows the Velite like they did for the GNs, the number of bolt on parts for a turbo application could be substancial. The aftermarket vendors which catered to the GNs over the past 15 years are ready and waiting for something new to support to apply everything they learned from the turbo-Regals.

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Let's just all hope it doesn't end up with an underpowered normally aspirated V6 (like the Reatta). In that case, there wouldn't be much to work with and something more radical would have to be considered (engine-swap?) and "collectible vehicle" registration to be emissions-exempt. mmmm.....

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Let's hope there's something significant under the hood from day one!

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[Guest elk93001]

I find it ashame that GM essentially abandoned the "boy-racer" image of the GN instead of refining it. As a result, Gm has taken a dramatic step backwards with marketing Buick and as a result, now want to get rid of the "geezer racer" image....

I wish that Buick still made a V8, but the V6 certainly isn't chopped liver.

There is plenty of power to be had from this engine, be it FWD or RWD. The development of the "3.8" has come a long way and still is tried and true. Now we just need to have a nice Buick to put around it.

I was reading an article about the 40th anniversary of the Mustang. We all know that it was pretty much a gussied up Falcon, but it was an image car that created alot of attention.

12 years ago, Chrysler had somewhat of an image problem... Dodge Dynasty, K car anyone? Then along came a Viper and the cab-forward cars, the Prowler and all of a sudden Chrysler styling was the hottest ticket in town.

Buick needs a top shelf car with styling,quality and performance to match. Let Corvette compete against Porsche or the Viper etc. Let Cadillac compete against the high end Mercedes. Give Buick something to compete against the likes of Infiniti or Lexus. The divisions at GM need to stop the quarreling about who should have the fastest car or best 0-60 time. Chevrolet or Saturn or even Pontiac will not be Mercedes or Lexus, therefore they should stop trying to be all things to all people. The Japanese have shown us that there's plenty of market share to be taken, so come on GM take back some market share.