23/45 Sports Special 1923 6 cylinder. (STARTER PROBLEM)

[Seton0]

I have a 23/45 with starter motor/generator. This car was restored a few years ago, and started with the starter. Just recently, it has decided to stop .When I engage the starter with my foot, it will not turn the motor over.    I removed the cover from the bell housing that contains the fork and spring assembly, and then engaged the gear to mesh with the small gear coming out of the starter. I turned on the ignition, and it fired straight up.  I re-assembled it all, and the problem is still there. I noticed there is no provision for any form of adjustment, as all parts can only be fixed in one position.  It appears it has been designed in such a way, that you cannot adjust the throw on the gear operated by the fork. All mechanisms are working fine. There is the normal wear on the nose of the gears, but all meshes fine. There is no gasket under the housing that contains the fork and spring. Could the fork put enough downward pressure on the gear beneath, to maybe apply some resistance to the gear turning freely ? It seems the problem is only there when the fork assembly is fitted to the housing. Any help would be appreciated here in Australia.

 

Richard. 

Edited July 20 by Seton0 (see edit history)

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Does the S-G motor when the switch is turned on ?   A S-G has 2 operating phases.  First is motoring which is a low speed spinning to allow the gears to mesh. Second is cranking the engine. 

If nothing is happening when the switch is on, the problem may be a bad contact in the switch which can be remedied by disassembling and cleaning the contacts OR there is a bad connection in the wiring to the switch. 

Edited July 20 by Oregon Desert model 45
edit (see edit history)

[DonMicheletti]

Or brushes worn out and not contacting the commutator properly

[Mark Shaw]

2 hours ago, DonMicheletti said:

brushes worn out and not contacting the commutator properly

 

[IFDPete]

My Garage find 1921-46 starter generator was not motoring or turning flywheel when starter pedal depressed recently. S/G was just humming when ignition turned on.  If I reached and hand turned the shaft coming out of S/G on firewall side it would slowly motor a few turns then stop.  So.... it wanted to motor but couldn't - old grease & oil was too gummed up.  Your 23 S/G shaft has to motor (spin when ignition turned on) to mesh with flywheel when you press starter pedal.  When you turn ignition on, but before pressing starter pedal, you should see shaft spin on firewall side of S/G and hear Oldham coupling clutch clicking on water pump side.  Water pump shaft should not be moving at this point. 

 

I pulled S/G from engine.  Pulled distributor housing & unscrewed cover from water pump shaft side of S/G.  I could not get that cover to come free from armature shaft.  Removed all brushes from mounts.  Loose cover was good enough to allow me to loop a strip of 600 grit aluminum oxide sand paper around both starter and generator copper and then hand rotate armature few turns with one hand while holding sandpaper loop with other hand until copper shined.  Clean copper dust w/ electronic cleaning spray.  My motor brushes had a lot of life (length) left in them so reused and remounted them.  Oiled bearings on both ends.  Tightened up cover.  Armature shaft spun beautifully fast on bench by hand after this.  General cleanup of old distributor shaft grease & distributor housing & regrease gears & remount distributor housing.  Greased Oldham coupling.  Reinstalled on engine block and now motors on its own & turns crankshaft with gusto.  So maybe your armature just needs a good cleanup so brushes make good contact for conducting electricity.

Edited July 20 by IFDPete
Wording (see edit history)

[Seton0]

Thanks for those replies ! When the ignition is turned on ,the S/G shaft spins ready to be engaged. I took the fork/spring cover off and engaged the gears manually (with the ignition off). It did start when I turned on the ignition, but not with gusto. When it engages with the ignition on ,it sounds as though it then should provide extra power to turn the motor over, correct? It feels as though it does not have enough power to want to turn the motor over when it is engaged. I have taken off the cover to inspect the brushes in the S/G. There is 2 areas for the brushes to run on. The larger diameter part is very clean where the brushes run, and the smaller diameter part that has brushes running on it is very dirty. It looks as though nothing is happening here at all. Is this where the problem may be ? 

[Oregon Desert model 45]

There are 2 commutators each with brushes ; the larger is for cranking mode; the smaller is for the generator when the engine is running and also for motoring when starting the engine. Remember that a DC motor will also generate when being driven.  Both sets of brushes & commutators must be clean for proper operation.   There should be a separate plate with 2 grounding brushes mounted which can be removed (I am assuming this is similar to 1924-1925 S-G unit).  Remove this plate and clean all ground path contacts that you can.  Corrosion, gunk, or paint may be interfering with grounding.  The S-G unit could also have a ground path issue to the engine block which is also remedied by cleaning. 

Kevin 

[IFDPete]

First let me say that I am not an expert on these Starter Generators.  I have some knowledge and it is fresh in my mind because I have had mine off the car and apart in the last few weeks. 

 

Sounds like your S/G is motoring now and was working until recently. 

Have you oiled the bearings via the oil points at each end of the S/G?  You can easily do this while it is mounted on the car.  Add 4 or 5 drops of motor oil.  If you have never done this it may be all your unit needs to run better.

 

Do your brushes make good contact with the armatures  ring of commutators?  Worn out Brush Arm springs causing poor contact?

 

Yes - Correct - when S/G changes from motoring to starter the S/G RPM boosts and sounds more powerful.

 

Top cover you opened is not the only brush access or brushes to service.  Top cover only allows access to top brushes.   Top Cover Labeled A in picture below.

 

There are two more covers to access.  Out board side cover (Labeled B in picture) has brushes mounted to it and there is a cover on the bottom of the S/G (below the distributor) for bottom brush - Labeled C.  If you want to get to C cover while S/G is on car you will need to lay down on the floor and work from underneath.

Do brushes have a good amount of material or do they need replacing? (Tough to check them all while S/G mounted on car- but not impossible)

 

The two areas you mention for the brushes to run on are the armature.  Large copper drum of contacts is a commutator ring - the Starter part of the unit.  Small copper drum of contacts is the Generator (& Motoring) commutator part of the unit.  Large shiny drum on your car is starter commutator ring of armature and gets less use so it seems right that it is shiny.

 

Your S/G is motoring so the dirty small diameter ring commutator doesn't seem to be the issue.  There is electrical activity going on there.  But it probably should be cleaned up.

 

You should take a look at the following threads on this forum for guys who have serviced S/G's on a 1922 and 1923 Buick.  Also some diagrams of the S/G units for reference.  Read them through - It will help you understand these S/G units better.  

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/275271-starter-generator/

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/331565-1922-starter-generator/

 

Edited July 21 by IFDPete
Wording (see edit history)

[IFDPete]

 

 The following post was very helpful to me in getting my 1921 S/G off of the car and cleaned up.

 

 

 

@Brian_Heil outlines a procedure with his April 15, 2016 post within the above thread explaining how he removed the S/G from his 1923 Buick without removing the water pump and shaft.  With with some modification to his procedure I was able to get my 1921 S/G off the engine and leave the water pump and shaft alone.  He would be a good resource to reach out to in working through your car's S/G.

 

To simplify this post I will repost his procedure below:

 

Brian Heil's 1923 Starter Generator removal procedure:

 

The Delco manual says that it is not necessary to remove the 1/4 in. drive pin and input drive collar to the S/G.  (Mechanical Engineers only read these manuals when done).  Now that I understand how it works/drives, I agree.  If you need to service/remove the water pump impeller then you do need to remove this troublesome collar.  Now I understand why the collar had not been off in 93 years, it doesn't have to come off to remove the S/G.

 

So, to remove the S/G without removing the drive collar and pin on the driving shaft: 

 

Disconnect battery and remove S/G wires noting locations (Field, Armature, Batt, large Batt)

 

Slide the round stamped cover on the forward end of the S/G held in place with 2 small screws toward the water pump and leave it hanging on the shaft.

Remove the cap and rotor and store in a safe place since these things are priced like Gold.

Remove the 4 bolts that hold down the cross-car starter actuation shaft and move it to the side a few inches.

Remove the small screw that holds the starter lever that goes between the S/G and the small rod in the top of the cover below.

Remove the 3 bolts that hold down the cover to the starter gear reduction box that is hidden in the right side of car engine mount ear.

Remove this cover and the starter lever.  Note the 'shifter fork' on the cover that actuates the gear set.  This fork needs to go back in the same gear slot.

Remove the three large bolts that hold the S/G to the block.  There is a ledge the S/G sits on but be careful, it weighs 57#.

Nudge the S/G rearward to disengage the Oldham Coupling a bit on the forward end of the S/G and pull the S/G up and out.

What allows this all to happen is the Oldham Coupling that drives the distributor and S/G when charging (Google Oldham Coupling Animation) This is what I could not figure out was in there until I tore it down but now I understand it.  The drive collar has a male slotted drive, there is a floating disc with a female slot on either side 90 degrees apart and then there is a male slot on the distributor drive gear.  Good old Mr. Oldham.  To re-assemble this, it will take some heavy grease to hold the center floating disc of the coupling in place and it might take a third hand to rotate things so the slots line up too.  But I agree that troublesome collar and 1/4 in drive pin did not have to come out.  Maybe this will save the next guy 4 hrs.

 

The Oldham coupling between the S/G and the shaft to the water pump can be separated to allow S/G removal. To help understand the Oldham coupling at the S/G clutch and how it comes apart here is an animation of the coupling at work.   Skip to about 1:45 in the video to skip to the animation of it in action.  Very simple junction and not difficult to remove.

 

 

I am a novice mechanic and it was not too difficult for me to remove my 1921 Starter Generator from the car, clean it up and get it working.

 

From your earlier post it sounds like the small diameter portion of the armature could use a cleaning and it is a lot easier to service the brushes and check their contact with the armature with it off of the car.

 

Good luck - Pete

 

 

 

Edited July 21 by IFDPete
Wording (see edit history)

[Seton0]

 Thanks again for the replies. This is my SG.

[Seton0]

Thanks IDF Pete. Does that procedure apply to the SG in the photos I just attached ?

 

[IFDPete]

Your 1923 S/G looks to be a slightly different design than my 1921.  Contact @Brian_Heil he wrote the procedure and was working on a 1923.  I see you have a 6 cylinder car.  Not sure if he was working on a 4 or a 6.  Not sure if S/G's differ from 4 to 6 cyl. cars in 1923.   My posts to this thread will be of limited use to you as your car is a little different than mine.  Brush access locations are probably different on your S/G.  1922 Starter Generators are similar to my 1921.  Looks like things changed in 1923.  People with 1923 cars will be your best resource.

 

Have you ever oiled the S/G bearings? Regardless of the S/G differences that would be a good first step.  Bearings may need lubrication. 

 

Good Luck - Pete

Edited July 21 by IFDPete (see edit history)

[Seton0]

Thanks Pete, Brian did contact me so I'd say I'll be in touch with him. 

 

[dibarlaw]

Your S/G should be  #D-249 and is very similar in construction and opperation as are the ones in Oregon Desert's Md 45  and my 1925 Master. #D-268. I see your car is RH drive which really complicates inspecting or getting the S/G out.

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Circled in this markup photo are the grounding brushes.  Your generator commutator definitely needs to be cleaned.  I am surprised it is even working with that much build up on the copper. 

[Seton0]

The photo may not be helping, but the commutator on the right is very clean, but the smaller one on the left is the dirty one. The larger is for the starting of the motor, and the smaller for charging the battery ?  I can crank start the car and see what voltage is going to the battery to see if it is charging . 

i have just remembered that when the car was restored, we spoke with an auto electrician (old) ,and he suggested the S/G would be able to run 12v easily. I think he thought it looks quite over engineered for what it does. As a result, we run the car on 12 volt, and replaced lights , coil etc. She has given us no trouble. 

[Seton0]

I just had a look at the mechanism in the S/G when operating the starter shaft. It appears that I may be missing a brush that should be attached to the piece above the large commutator. It has 2 screws that appear to hold a brush. As I operate the mechanism to start the car, the piece with the 2 screws above the large commutator lowers toward the commutator and does not make contact at all. If there is a brush that should be mounted here with the 2 screws, does that then come down and make contact with the commutator? And then, does it provide the extra power to enable the starter to engage and spin the flywheel ?

[Seton0]

12 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

 

Mark, does the 3rd brush in the picture move up and down with the action of the starter pedal ?

[Mark Shaw]

Yes, I know that one brush does, but not sure it is that one.  From your photos, I suggest you have your unit professionally rebuilt.

 jason@aerrebuild.com

 

 

[ramair]

22 hours ago, Seton0 said:

The photo may not be helping, but the commutator on the right is very clean, but the smaller one on the left is the dirty one. The larger is for the starting of the motor, and the smaller for charging the battery ?  I can crank start the car and see what voltage is going to the battery to see if it is charging . 

i have just remembered that when the car was restored, we spoke with an auto electrician (old) ,and he suggested the S/G would be able to run 12v easily. I think he thought it looks quite over engineered for what it does. As a result, we run the car on 12 volt, and replaced lights , coil etc. She has given us no trouble. 

I might suggest that the word “Yet” be added to your last sentence! I have 2 cars with starter. / generator’s and what was suggested to you and it appears you followed the suggestion could have caused a slow degradation of the armature, field and brushes.  If you are able to get it to work properly please consider going back to 6 volts.  I know that many people even on this forum have switched their vehicle to 12 volt and I would agree with them that with a conventional system with a separate starter and generator it will work fine for years, however in that system the 6 volt generator is replaced with a 12 so only the starter gets zapped once in a while with 12 volts, but if I understand what you have done is forced the generator portion of your combined unit to create 12 volts to keep your battery charged.

i am afraid your Buick warranty is now void, with some luck it might clean up and work normally 

[Lou McCarrell]

On 7/20/2024 at 9:54 PM, IFDPete said:

 

 The following post was very helpful to me in getting my 1921 S/G off of the car and cleaned up.

 

 

 

@Brian_Heil outlines a procedure with his April 15, 2016 post within the above thread explaining how he removed the S/G from his 1923 Buick without removing the water pump and shaft.  With with some modification to his procedure I was able to get my 1921 S/G off the engine and leave the water pump and shaft alone.  He would be a good resource to reach out to in working through your car's S/G.

 

To simplify this post I will repost his procedure below:

 

Brian Heil's 1923 Starter Generator removal procedure:

 

The Delco manual says that it is not necessary to remove the 1/4 in. drive pin and input drive collar to the S/G.  (Mechanical Engineers only read these manuals when done).  Now that I understand how it works/drives, I agree.  If you need to service/remove the water pump impeller then you do need to remove this troublesome collar.  Now I understand why the collar had not been off in 93 years, it doesn't have to come off to remove the S/G.

 

So, to remove the S/G without removing the drive collar and pin on the driving shaft: 

 

Disconnect battery and remove S/G wires noting locations (Field, Armature, Batt, large Batt)

 

Slide the round stamped cover on the forward end of the S/G held in place with 2 small screws toward the water pump and leave it hanging on the shaft.

Remove the cap and rotor and store in a safe place since these things are priced like Gold.

Remove the 4 bolts that hold down the cross-car starter actuation shaft and move it to the side a few inches.

Remove the small screw that holds the starter lever that goes between the S/G and the small rod in the top of the cover below.

Remove the 3 bolts that hold down the cover to the starter gear reduction box that is hidden in the right side of car engine mount ear.

Remove this cover and the starter lever.  Note the 'shifter fork' on the cover that actuates the gear set.  This fork needs to go back in the same gear slot.

Remove the three large bolts that hold the S/G to the block.  There is a ledge the S/G sits on but be careful, it weighs 57#.

Nudge the S/G rearward to disengage the Oldham Coupling a bit on the forward end of the S/G and pull the S/G up and out.

What allows this all to happen is the Oldham Coupling that drives the distributor and S/G when charging (Google Oldham Coupling Animation) This is what I could not figure out was in there until I tore it down but now I understand it.  The drive collar has a male slotted drive, there is a floating disc with a female slot on either side 90 degrees apart and then there is a male slot on the distributor drive gear.  Good old Mr. Oldham.  To re-assemble this, it will take some heavy grease to hold the center floating disc of the coupling in place and it might take a third hand to rotate things so the slots line up too.  But I agree that troublesome collar and 1/4 in drive pin did not have to come out.  Maybe this will save the next guy 4 hrs.

 

The Oldham coupling between the S/G and the shaft to the water pump can be separated to allow S/G removal. To help understand the Oldham coupling at the S/G clutch and how it comes apart here is an animation of the coupling at work.   Skip to about 1:45 in the video to skip to the animation of it in action.  Very simple junction and not difficult to remove.

 

 

I am a novice mechanic and it was not too difficult for me to remove my 1921 Starter Generator from the car, clean it up and get it working.

 

From your earlier post it sounds like the small diameter portion of the armature could use a cleaning and it is a lot easier to service the brushes and check their contact with the armature with it off of the car.

 

Good luck - Pete

 

 

 

 hey Pete, where would I expect to find the D-xxx number on the delco? I don't have the car right now, it is in the shop getting a new canvas top made, but I have a salvaged Delco in poor shape I was hoping would be a good used rebuildable core. However, I cannot find an ID tag on it. there is a tag riveted on it that says disconnect battery, and a series of dates that i assume to be patent dates.

[IFDPete]

Lou - my 1921 S/G has no model number tag or stamping.  Not sure if tag is missing or if it never had it.  Patent tag doesn't have it on there either.  I am inclined to say it never had a model identification as I don't see any open rivet holes or area where a tag was.  Numbers stamped on mine are what I assume are a serial number. Open the picture I posted above in this thread (with the red A B C) and zoom in - you can see the serial number stamped into the raised section on the body to the left of the red A.  Other people on the forum may be able to say if other years S/G have the D-XXX number identification on them.

[dibarlaw]

Lou:

 I believe yours should be stamped #251 for a 1923 4 cyl.  On some of my S/Gs the Delco # is stamped into the casting above the ID plate. I had to scrub the area clean and apply some chalk to see it.

[Lou McCarrell]

Thanks guys. to be fair, the one I am looking at laid half buried in the ground under a cherry tree for a very long time. the lower half is rusted pretty good. I'll need to take a good look at the one on the car when it comes home in a month or two

[Mark Shaw]

Lou,

     The brushes will not corrode, so salvaging this one from the dirt could be useful.

[Brian_Heil]

https://gilmorecarmuseum.org/

 

https://www.museumofthehorselesscarriage.org/celebration-of-brass-iv-july-18-23/

 

Just back from this event where I blew a tube (actually 3) on my 1911 but still had a nice tour.  Right now I'm fighting some bad wiring in my car trailer power tongue lift and need to resolve that first to park the trailer properly.  But together, we will get to the bottom of this S/G issue in a day or two.

 

If you are on FaceBook search Museum of the Horseless Carriage or Horseless Carriage Club of America for lots of fun pics and videos of the event to keep busy in the mean time.  Ha. 

[Leif Holmberg]

[Brian_Heil]

First we all need to be glad we don’t have right hand drive.  This makes S/G access more difficult. 
 

Agree things need to be cleaned up and brightened as others suggest. Both commutators and brushes.  The bottom brush plate comes off to allow some additional access. 
 

The fact that it motors and it started (even dirty) suggests things work if you manually engage the gear set as you did. So we have a mechanical issue says me. 
 

There is an adjustment on the starter pedal linkage, at least on left hand cars.  We have a cross car shaft that goes from our pedal over to the S/G with a lever on it at the S/G end and the lever clamps to this shaft and the lever moves the gears and the big pin in the S/G.  It can get loose to this shaft and there is a clamp bolt for adjustment. 
 

Do you have such lever on the RH drive car?  Can it be adjusted or guessing it may be loose to the starter pedal?  Follow the starter pedal linkage you have with someone pushing the pedal and make sure nothing is loose, not moving down stream of the pedal.  My apologies for not knowing how the RHD linkage looks like exactly. 

 

First things I would check.  Let us know. 

[Brian_Heil]

Also the ‘gear box’ in the leg of the bell housing can be full of 100 year old petrified grease.  Mine was.  This can gum up the over riding clutch that is in there inside one of the gears.  Yours is working so this is not critical but cleaning and lubing everything in there is a good idea.  
 

Push fresh grease in and dig the old stuff out. 

[Brian_Heil]

Underneath this oblong plate is a packing that holds oil for the rear plain bearing of the S/G  Mine has a flip top oiler but perhaps for RHD the oiler does not package?

 

Remove that little plate and see if the packing needs to be oiled  

 

There should be an oiler for the front S/G bearing too  

Edited July 25 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Brian also brought up the mechanical adjustments that need consideration on these cars. Here is the starter linkages and cross shaft assembly for the big 6 cars.

 Cleaned up and lubed they work very smoothly.

The starter gear fork is adjustable as the shaft is threaded for timing the engagement with the flywheel gear as the S/G brush pin is pulled out to drop the starter brush on the armature.

The shaft is threaded for adjustment. Threaded area hidden by the spring.

 On my 1925 Master once the starter motored I had to MASH down on the telescoping starter pedal to get engagement. I tried driving a friends 1924-45 and starter engagement took light toe pressure.  When the previous owner of my car worked on it in the 1960s this adjustment was disturbed. Now with the correct adjustment we are back to easy toe pressure. Unfortunately the over running starter gear and smaller to flywheel gear had been pretty well chewed up. I was lucky to salvage a much better one from the 1924 parts engine I have.

I chalange anyone to get this gear assembly removed without removing the Starter Generator. The gear cannot come out of the opening where the fork assembly bolts to. I had to make a notch on both sides of the opening to get it out.

 

[Brian_Heil]

Similar to the 1923 but not exactly the same.  I think he has something either loose or out of adjustment with the linkage as you state.  Let’s wait and see. 

[27donb]

8 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

 

I chalange anyone to get this gear assembly removed without removing the Starter Generator. The gear cannot come out of the opening where the fork assembly bolts to.

 

Oh thank goodness, I thought it was just me that had that problem! 

 

Thank you! 

[dibarlaw]

Yes Don:

 I dd have a sequence documented but those photos were corrupted on my SD card. There may be an old post on the forum about it somewhere. The hardest process was the small nut/bolt (pusher) I made up to press out the shaft by using the S/G to push against. Adding more washers and turning the nut a 1/4 turn at a time. It took me several hours.

 Horray! I removed the shaft! Wait..... now the gear won't come out of the rear crankcase! I carefully cut a 1/4" notch on both sides of the aluminum crankcase opening to extracate the pesky gear. The fork housing casting covers this so it is not seen.

OK. Checking around I did have a short video I did to show how it works with the sheet metal inspection cover removed.

 22.7 M so I can't post.

 

[Seton0]

Thanks for getting back to me Brian. This car had a full resto , with little kms done since, around 20 years ago. No old gunk around ! I'll look at the linkage again. I added a photo to this post . There is a part circled that moves up and down when the starter is activated by foot. To me , it looks as though there should be a brush mounted where you can see the screw heads. Does that make sense ? I wouldn't have a clue, but if there was meant to be a brush there ,would it affect starting ? At the moment I am convinced that everything mechanical is working ok, but it appears that when I depress the starter pedal, and engage the gears to the flywheel, it seems to lack enough zing to want to spin the flywheel.

[Seton0]

Dibarlaw, I just saw your post, and there was a mention of 'dropping the starter brush onto the armature'. Did you see the photo I posted circled in red, also with a red up and down arrow ? Is this what you are talking about ? If this is what you are talking about, does it look as though I may have a brush broken or missing here ?

[Brian_Heil]

There is a large brush in your red circle. Rather short and worn, but there.  

 

When the pedal is activated these two large brushes (there is a second large brush 180 degrees from the one circled) move and contact the large commutator and generate the starting torque of the motor. 
 

There is a large ~1 inch dowel that moves in and out that lifts these brushes with a small roller. The dowel has a bull nose ramp that the roller rides up and down on. 

[Seton0]

Thanks Brian. Perfectly explained! That makes a lot of sense. I think this may be the problem. I feel the only option is to remove the SG and check both brushes. Are those brushes readily available in the States, or is it a part I will have to try and source eleswhere?

[Brian_Heil]

Try an industrial supply house or an industrial motor rebuilder.  Show them your worn brush and I bet you get something close you can drill and shape to fit. 
 

There may be correct brushes out there but you may not like the price. 

[Brian_Heil]

The top brush, as you can see in your photo, is readily accessible 

 

The bottom brush is on the removable lower grounding plate.  Remove the two 7/16 bolts.  Spring loaded plate comes off. 
 

Of the 5 brushes in your SG, these two starting brushes are the easiest to service.