KishanP Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 I have had this 66 Buick Riviera just sitting around for 3 years and recently got the idea to convert it to electric and make it my daily use car. I want to convert it to electric because I am a young electrical engineer so I have plenty foundational and real life knowledge in electronics, but don't have any experience rebuilding engines or working on cars in general. (I do plan on keeping everything and possibly rebuilding the engine, carb, etc later) The main problem I am initially running into is not being able to find any weight statistics besides curb weight. I really need the chassis weight, GVWR, and any other part weights if available. I know this is very unlikely since its such an old car and I will most likely just have to end up removing everything and weighing it myself, but if you all know any info let me know! I have included some pictures of when I found it and its current state. Thank You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 The engine weighs about 640 pounds, transmission weighs about 135. Subtract 775 pounds from the gross weight and you should be close enough for what you’re trying to do. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) Have you seen the pictures of the 1964-ish LeSabre which was "modded" with electricity? OR the other kits out there to do such conversions??? Not really an original idea, it seems, with all due respect. Apparently more information on such than you might suspect. Even from Holley. There is also a YouTube video on reviving one of the 492 1997 S-10s Chevy built which were electric. You might be able to replace the gas engine with an electric motor and bolt it to the THM400, or a THM200-4R OD (to make better use of existing power for increased range. BUT the real issue is the battery pack. It would be really neat if you could use one of the "almost here" solid state battery packs that the OEMs are getting ready to release (sometime). IF you look at the earlier Chevy Volt, the whole center of the floorpan is the battery. Looking at the parts illustration of the huge number of wiring harnesses looks like it would be a nightmare to try to emulate!! End result, your desired end result could easily end up being a huge money chasm. Not "pit", but CHASM. With a restorable car becoming a pile of rust in the process. If you want to save the car, restore it with the production drivetrain. It will be far more valuable to ANYBODY that way! Restore the Riviera and use the profits from the sale to finance your EV project. In the mean time, focus your energies on how the OEMs are doing their electric vehicles. Learn about all of the neat tech in the Tesla Cybertruck and other Tesla models, for example. They are engineering marvels, from what I have seen. After this research, THEN figure out how to adapt your tech to vintage ICE vehicles without massive weight additions (the Cybertruck weights 7000lbs, compared to the Hummer EV which is 9000lbs) due to current battery packs. By that point in time, the charging infrastructure will be more built-out and you can enjoy your work better. Plus lighter-weight battery packs. You might get the motor and batteries installed, but the weight involved could be well PAST what the orig frame AND suspension and brakes can work with. Upgrades will be needed! Plus higher-capacity tires. I ran across a YouTube video by a Mr. Slye, who talked about optimum charge levels for daily use. He has two Teslas. The one he drives daily has over 135K miles and has 93% effectiveness in the orig battery. Do your research on the subject BEFORE you use the Riv as the guinea pig. Regards, NTX5467 Edited February 23 by NTX5467 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 7 hours ago, RivNut said: The engine weighs about 640 pounds, transmission weighs about 135. Subtract 775 pounds from the gross weight and you should be close enough for what you’re trying to do. Yes, should get you to a ball-park figure. 8 hours ago, KishanP said: I want to convert it to electric because I am a young electrical engineer so I have plenty foundational and real life knowledge in electronics, but don't have any experience rebuilding engines or working on cars in general. Wonder if Ford's 9000 Mach-E crate motor has been revised with a IPM-SRM "Internal Permanent Magnet- Switched Reluctance Motor"? Also referred to as IPM-SynchRM. Most of us work with Modules instead of piecing together components. Much easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 17 hours ago, NTX5467 said: Restore the Riviera and use the profits from the sale to finance your EV project. Wipe the Riviera down with PB Blaster so it shines and put it on Craigslist. Use the cash. As an electrical engineer you can easily become well versed in the concepts of an electric car. As with most conceptual engineering jobs you with find the details will come around to bite you. I like electric cars. It is too bad they carry such a political stigma. In your position I would consider buying a used Prius. They have been making them for 20 years now and can be bought cheap. Many bargains are out there due to incorrect problem diagnosis. Buy one and live with it for 5 years, you wrote you are young. With the experience you gain you will build a much better car than you ever expected. Maybe on someone's abandoned Cobra kit project. And surely a home solar charging station. Learn and live with the current technology. An engineer who knows the concepts and the details concurrently is not a very popular guy at design meetings but your projects will come in smoothly. That Buick body and X-frame are not too compatible with battery storage anyway. I have a 1964. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 I concur. Buy a Prius, learn about it, how it does what it does, why it does what it does. Then figure out a better way to do it. Possibly even prototyping your idea on that car. This will give you real-world hands-on experiences from which new innovations can be born. Reman Prius batteries are available from Toyota Parts and are easy to change. One man locally gets on of the reman batteries, they uncrate it at the dealership, then he puts it in the back of his Prius. Goes to the customer's location, changes it out, and returns the core to the dealership. The core goes into the original crate and it goes back to Toyota for re-doing. I don't think the batteries are terribly expensive, either? Other than a Prius, you can also look for a used Honda Hybrid, too. Allegedly, Honda has the best system and Toyota built their system off of the Honda system. In 5 years, no telling where battery tech will be! Obviously more toward an evolved solid-state battery? Less charging time and more distance? As powertrains become more efficient, too. Every so often, LinkedIN has some job postings for Tesla parts and service employees. Getting into the parts area might be something you could learn their systems through. Might be enjoyable, just not a profitable as being a registered EE, but might be a decent summer or semester job. Enjoy! NTX5467 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJS Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Good day, Apparently someone tried this a number of years ago in a '67 Riv... I'm sure some of the technology has evolved, but I would say, what they heh, have some fun in life. Good luck, keep us posted... Not much there, but source; https://barnfinds.com/experimental-ev-1967-buick-riviera-electric-vehicle/ Later, 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 At least the headlight motors are already electric... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
65VerdeGS Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I think you guys scared the original poster away... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogDriver Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I think he was on the wrong forum for his project. Ray 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJS Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Good day. He owns a Riviera that he want to customize, surely there are other ROA members that have radically altered their Riv from stock. I say more power to him and we should encourage more new members with Riviera projects regardless of their intended outcome. Personally, I would be blown away to see a 'relatively' straightforward Riv restored, that when you opened the hood, was powered by the new generation of motor madness. Although still in the infant stages of evolution, EV conversions of classic vintage cars won't be going away anytime soon. Again, from my chair, more power to you... Later, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 He wrote that he was a young engineer. Expecting a social exchange? He's gotta have The Knack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJS Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said: He wrote that he was a young engineer. Expecting a social exchange? He's gotta have The Knack. Good day. Sorry, I’m not sure if I totally understand these comments, but I was more responding to the comment that he may have been in the ‘wrong forum’. It’s a Riv that he wants to customize, came here for a specific question, (weight) to which he got some rational answers on how best to estimate it. He also got, what I thought was some negativity towards his project but in some respect, also to his experience, or apparent lack thereof that we really don’t know too much about. We all gotta learn somewhere and learning by one’s mistakes and sharing those can be very beneficial for some… Although I never followed the automotive career, when I was a young, 16 year old apprentice in my uncles engine rebuilding shop, one bad day I was sent out the the shed to find a “piston long weight”. After what seemed like hours looking for something I had no idea what it was, I came back sheepishly, only to find out I found what they sent me for… a Pissed on long wait… to cool off. Anyway, interestingly enough, this week’s Haggarty newsletter is somewhat experience topical… https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/11-rites-of-passage-every-diy-mechanic-must-experience/?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MED_UN_NA_EML_UN_UN_WeekendRoadTrip&hashed_email=f472103ce9c29545ae77fe867876dcc74dd2d592f381f4083b4b20ffe9144d61&dtm_em=f472103ce9c29545ae77fe867876dcc74dd2d592f381f4083b4b20ffe9144d61 Later, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 5 hours ago, MikeJS said: Although still in the infant stages of evolution, EV conversions of classic vintage cars won't be going away anytime soon. https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-MACHE ELUMINATOR™ MACH-E ELECTRIC MOTOR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 As one of the responders to the OP's questions, I'll take ownership of my comments and what might have happened. BTAIM, over the past years, I have noticed that as educated as younger people might be on the Internet and such, they apparently are not fully aware of Google. I have seen many posts about "I've looked everywhere and can't find _______." Then a regular poster in the forum give them an address to go to to find their answer. Quick and easy. The OP could have found that information themselves, but couldn't (for whatever reason). In the OP's question, I wondered if he even looked before he asked? Or if he perceived his question to be unique and "not asked before"? I suspect that if he had Googled "Buick EV conversions" or "ICE vehicle EV conversions" he might have discovered a lot of what he was seeking. The OTHER situation is that many people perceive a vehicle frame as strong and stiff. Yet it is also flexible and has a certain amount of weight it will support. The weight of such a piece is not generally known, unless somebody has actually weighed one similar to the one in question. FEW frames ever get separated from their vehicles unless it is in some sort of higher-level restoration activities. The most common "weight" might be defined as how many adult people it takes to lift or move it, not in specific pounds of kilograms. Considering how recent the 1963 or 1964 Buick LeSabre EV conversion was in the media, that would have made an excellent reference point for him. Yet he apparently had not seen it. Looked everywhere? Seems like somebody mentioned that car in their answer? Although we offered suggestions of how to best proceed with his "dream" of an EV Riviera, his original question tended to be unanswered. So his quest for knowledge apparently went elsewhere? There were other signals I saw in his questions that I won't address. I wish him well in his quest and the journeys he might have getting there. NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogDriver Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 My response was due to lack of members discussing an EV exchange and not his exploring such. Not something I would consider on our cars but it would be an interesting swap. I have been involved with putting a pair of Mazda wankle engines in a boat before and that was a project. Lighter weight but gas hogs. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 5 hours ago, NTX5467 said: The OTHER situation is that many people perceive a vehicle frame as strong and stiff. Yet it is also flexible and has a certain amount of weight it will support. A little off topic but I too thought a fully boxed Perimeter or X-Frame (Buick's Cruciform) was stiff. It is the reason I opted for a new 1987 Grand National. I purposely ordered it withn ASC sunroof for rigidity. When the Dealer cancelled my order to allow shipments straight to his inventory to sell above list, I later re-ordered for extended production but no more ASC. So, I specified the package with no T-Tops. The G-Body platform had an open frame and was crap! While on the bumper jack, the doors wouldn't close. And when the doors were shut with all fours on the ground, the front edge of the trunk would pop up. The windshield cracked not for a rock but driving through a pot-hole at -30 deg. C. As a kid, I remember a Montreal Dealer "Harold Cummings Chevrolet" would set aside Trade-ins of GMs 1964 and older to support a local stunt act where they would jump them. Their main Driver would insist on a cruciform frame for greater chance of success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) Every frame is designed to have a certain amount of flex in it. Otherwise it could be mounted without rubber isolators between the body and frame. The '70s Corvette frames looked like they could have been from under a 3/4 ton pickup, but they could get damaged in shipping. I know one dealer ordered three before he got an undamaged one. As it turns out, they regularly rusted in the northern climates due to salt on the roads. Which is where that one particular 'Vette came from before it got to TX. The '77 B and C-platform frames were perimeter frames, with only a transmission crossmember in them. Any sizeable side impact to the door area (2-dr or 4-dr) would indicate how much later stiffness was NOT in that frame and body. I saw several instances of that! Those cars' frames were designed to give downward if they got hit in the rear. One of our old-line customers said he straightened one without using his frame machine. I remember Joie Chitwood's "thrill driver" shows. I was amazed how they did jumps with the softly-sprung '61 Chevrolets they used that one year. Which had the X-frame under them. I remember hearing about how strong the X-frame was, but it relied upon the stiffness in the rocker panels for side impact resistance, the way it looked to me. Lots of different ways to do things. How "flexible" GM frames were was a selling point for Fords, starting in about 1957. Look for the wrecking ball '58 Ford ad on YouTube. Plus the sales comparisons of '57 or '58 Fords and Cjevrolets, too. NTX5467 Edited March 3 by NTX5467 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 In looking in the Chevy Perf Parts catalog, I was REMINDED that GM has been selling an "eCRATE" EV conversion kit for several years. The electric motor mates with a 4-speed (THM700 style) automatic transmission. ONLY installed at certain conversion centers. Motor, battery, controls, etc. in a kit. 200 horsepower propulsion. No mention of range. All in the catalog! I had known that Holley had a kit, but had forgotten that (what used to be) GM Performance Parts was probably the first kit. Enjoy! NTX5467 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) On 2/23/2024 at 2:45 PM, KishanP said: I want to convert it to electric because I am a young electrical engineer so I have plenty foundational and real life knowledge in electronics, but don't have any experience rebuilding engines or working on cars in general. (I do plan on keeping everything and possibly rebuilding the engine, carb, etc later) The main problem I am initially running into is not being able to find any weight statistics besides curb weight. My reply was to the first couple of sentences. From the picture it looked like there would be no great loss to the Buick community I have had the frame out of my car, transported it nearly 100 miles to get it preped and painted, as well as moving it around the garage to reassemble. I never weighed it. His is is a 4200 pound car. I could get close enough for an engineering project "budget price". My intent was to raise awareness to some of the details he was dealing with. "It is a stove. It is hot.". We can enumerate the possible affects if you need. But not right now. 14 minutes ago, NTX5467 said: ONLY installed at certain conversion centers. And here are the people who know the often overlooked details. Edited March 3 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KishanP Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 (edited) Hey Guys, first thank you for all the advice it truly was helpful! Sorry for not posting earlier, I am in my last year of college as well as working for an engineering consulting company so my plate is kind of full and I know this project is going to take years so there is no rush for me. I had also done research beforehand and pretty much everything was telling me the car is too heavy but I just really loved the car and was hoping on the small chance that you guys might have suggestions on how to lose weight and make the project feasible. But my ultimate goal is to build/convert a classic car to electric, so logic wins in this case and my best option is to sell the car and use the profit to buy a rolling chassis that fills my requirements and have a solid foundation. So, I went home for spring break and got fresh pictures of the car and you should see it for sale soon if your interested! Side note: I saw the car in person for the first time in a long time and realized I was a little dumb/clouded, this car is MASSIVE :), It would've been so inefficient to move this much metal around, I just was too connected to the car haha! Thanks again for the support and I will keep you guys updated!!! Edited March 7 by KishanP (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 4 hours ago, KishanP said: Hey Guys, first thank you for all the advice it truly was helpful! Sorry for not posting earlier, I am in my last year of college as well as working for an engineering consulting company so my plate is kind of full and I know this project is going to take years so there is no rush for me. I had also done research beforehand and pretty much everything was telling me the car is too heavy but I just really loved the car and was hoping on the small chance that you guys might have suggestions on how to lose weight and make the project feasible. But my ultimate goal is to build/convert a classic car to electric, so logic wins in this case and my best option is to sell the car and use the profit to buy a rolling chassis that fills my requirements and have a solid foundation. So, I went home for spring break and got fresh pictures of the car and you should see it for sale soon if your interested! Side note: I saw the car in person for the first time in a long time and realized I was a little dumb/clouded, this car is MASSIVE :), It would've been so inefficient to move this much metal around, I just was too connected to the car haha! Thanks again for the support and I will keep you guys updated!!! It will probably cost you more to make the conversion than you’d spend on gas, if you drove it like a classic rather than a daily driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Thanks for the update. I find the comment about "too heavy" a bit amusing. Considering that a Hummer EV weighs 9000lbs and the Tesla Cybertruck is 7000lbs (with the main difference between their weights being the battery pack and related voltages used), the Riv is a "light-weight" by comparison. BUT as battery tech moves toward the upgraded solid-state batteries, that could decrease the weight markedly. Which would make the EV conversion more viable as to cost and using vintage cars rather than purpose-designed EVs. By that time, too, the charging network infrastructure should be expanded. Which when combined with the newer battery tech, would make EVs a much more viable alternative in the future. At the present time, there is a late 1990s Chevy S-10 EV on YouTube. Chevy built those pickups in limited production runs for municipal fleet customers at the Shreveport, LA plant. Using the normal vehicle with an EV drivetrain, using the pickup truck's bed for battery space. Might check it out and see how much things have progressed from then. Perhaps, as production of the new Dodge Chargers progresses, I suspect there will be some coverage of the differences between the EVs and ICE-powered versions of them. That might provide some guidance of how to move forward with your desires. With 121" wheelbases and being about 206" long, they are not as small as the vehicles they replace. Plus heavier at 5800lbs or so. Seeing how they accomplished these things will be interesting! Take care, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Often overlooked sources of research can be expired or older patents. As technology evolves many good ideas are patented prematurely. The technology or market is not there for them. Innovative ideas get lost in the pragmatism dujour. You may not use the exact idea but you could be inspired to go beyond what the accepted norms are. In the early 1990s I was granted two patents. The first was an updated adaptation of a 1950s patent. The second was a process that evolved from developing the older idea. There is a lot of good stuff out there from thinkers whom were ahead of their time in nearly any field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJS Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 1 hour ago, NTX5467 said: By that time, too, the charging network infrastructure should be expanded. Which when combined with the newer battery tech, would make EVs a much more viable alternative in the future. Probably been saying this for over a hundred years. Lady plugging in her electric car in 1912... Apparently by 1917 38% of vehicles in the US were electric... Henry Ford helped put the brakes on that... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 (edited) On 3/3/2024 at 7:28 AM, NTX5467 said: In looking in the Chevy Perf Parts catalog, I was REMINDED that GM has been selling an "eCRATE" EV conversion kit for several years. The electric motor mates with a 4-speed (THM700 style) automatic transmission. ONLY installed at certain conversion centers. Motor, battery, controls, etc. in a kit. 200 horsepower propulsion. No mention of range. All in the catalog! I think this is a 2023 offering: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/ecrate Edited March 8 by XframeFX (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Lots of potential right here: 2008-2010 Chevy/Cadillac Hybrid SUV transmissions should be showing up in the dismantler bins in the $2,000 range. I can see the potential. On that battery weight, my 2005 Silverado weighs in at 4800 on the scrapyard scales. I have left the local sand pit at 7,200 gross. A thousand pound battery is a piece of cake to haul around if you find where to put it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: 2008-2010 Chevy/Cadillac Hybrid SUV transmissions should be showing up in the dismantler bins in the $2,000 range. I can see the potential. I like this totally. But not for X-Frame chassis😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 The first electric motor in a GM automatic transmission was also developed with BMW as one of the developers. In electric mode, the transmissions had a metallic gear whine to them. Not exactly a "luxury" experience, to me. It was a "slice" that could be inserted into the existing multi-piece automatic transmission case. A pretty neat concept. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 7 hours ago, MikeJS said: Probably been saying this for over a hundred years. Lady plugging in her electric car in 1912... Apparently by 1917 38% of vehicles in the US were electric... Henry Ford helped put the brakes on that... Have to ALSO remember that many non-city areas of the country did NOT have electric service back then. Or even into the 1930s before the Rural Electrification Act happened. Which relegated electrics to be "city cars". NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 16 hours ago, NTX5467 said: In electric mode, the transmissions had a metallic gear whine to them. Today, EVs and PHEVs have a whiny noise below say 30 KM/hour as to let pedestrians know you're in close proximity. Very annoying. Unplugging the speaker might throw an error code so I rollered-on a scrap piece of DynaMat. It helps but, I can still detect when it kicks-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 2 hours ago, XframeFX said: have a whiny noise below say 30 KM/hour Probably the flag barer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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